Discussion:
Played in a 3-3 fit -- What Happened?
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P***@yahoo.com
2016-08-17 22:24:27 UTC
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Masterpoints Pair Game, Vulnerable vs Not

I had this hand in second seat:

S: A72
H: K
D: AT82
C: AKQ73

My partner had this hand in fourth seat:

S: J83
H: QT82
D: J743
C: 52

We play DONT over strong NT openings...2C shows clubs and a higher ranking suit. Opponents play systems on over X or 2C and they play Jacoby Transfers.

My RHO opens the bidding with a strong NT (15-17 HCPs). The bidding went:

(1N) 2C (2D) P
(2H) X (P) 2S
P P P

I sure wasn't happy about that one.

Here's the dialogue between partner and me:

Me: If my higher ranking suit were spades, I would have bid it. The double of 2H shows strength and support for spades, but implies that my two suits are clubs and diamonds.

My Partner: I don't know why you couldn't double with four spades and three diamonds. Over my 2S bid, you should have bid 3D showing that you only had three spades, and also showing your 20 HCPs. Then, I might have bid 3N.

Your input?
Player
2016-08-18 00:26:03 UTC
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Post by P***@yahoo.com
Masterpoints Pair Game, Vulnerable vs Not
S: A72
H: K
D: AT82
C: AKQ73
S: J83
H: QT82
D: J743
C: 52
We play DONT over strong NT openings...2C shows clubs and a higher ranking suit. Opponents play systems on over X or 2C and they play Jacoby Transfers.
(1N) 2C (2D) P
(2H) X (P) 2S
P P P
I sure wasn't happy about that one.
Me: If my higher ranking suit were spades, I would have bid it. The double of 2H shows strength and support for spades, but implies that my two suits are clubs and diamonds.
My Partner: I don't know why you couldn't double with four spades and three diamonds. Over my 2S bid, you should have bid 3D showing that you only had three spades, and also showing your 20 HCPs. Then, I might have bid 3N.
Your input?
Firstly, why do you play Dont? I think it is quite poor. It is also not designed to find games over a snt opening, but rather find a playable part score. This hand is just too good.
Secondly what is a X for you? OK you may not play penalty Xs.
Thirdly, playing Dont, I agree with your auction up to your partner's 2s bid. Passing 2S was an egregious error. Why not bid 2NT to show you own the minors. If you are playing with the incompetent who didn't cue on a previous post, maybe 3C would be better, however pass is very poor.
Douglas Newlands
2016-08-18 01:34:20 UTC
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Post by Player
Post by P***@yahoo.com
Masterpoints Pair Game, Vulnerable vs Not
S: A72
H: K
D: AT82
C: AKQ73
S: J83
H: QT82
D: J743
C: 52
We play DONT over strong NT openings...2C shows clubs and a higher ranking suit. Opponents play systems on over X or 2C and they play Jacoby Transfers.
(1N) 2C (2D) P
(2H) X (P) 2S
P P P
I sure wasn't happy about that one.
Me: If my higher ranking suit were spades, I would have bid it. The double of 2H shows strength and support for spades, but implies that my two suits are clubs and diamonds.
My Partner: I don't know why you couldn't double with four spades and three diamonds. Over my 2S bid, you should have bid 3D showing that you only had three spades, and also showing your 20 HCPs. Then, I might have bid 3N.
Your input?
Firstly, why do you play Dont? I think it is quite poor.
It is also not designed to find games over a snt opening, but rather find a playable part score.
Also, it tends to drop you in the minor suit rather than any major fit.
This may not matter at teams but at pairs, it is a big worry.

doug
Post by Player
This hand is just too good.
Secondly what is a X for you? OK you may not play penalty Xs.
Thirdly, playing Dont, I agree with your auction up to your partner's 2s bid. Passing 2S was an egregious error. Why not bid 2NT to show you own the minors. If you are playing with the incompetent who didn't cue on a previous post, maybe 3C would be better, however pass is very poor.
P***@yahoo.com
2016-08-18 02:54:04 UTC
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Post by Player
Post by P***@yahoo.com
Masterpoints Pair Game, Vulnerable vs Not
S: A72
H: K
D: AT82
C: AKQ73
S: J83
H: QT82
D: J743
C: 52
We play DONT over strong NT openings...2C shows clubs and a higher ranking suit. Opponents play systems on over X or 2C and they play Jacoby Transfers.
(1N) 2C (2D) P
(2H) X (P) 2S
P P P
I sure wasn't happy about that one.
Me: If my higher ranking suit were spades, I would have bid it. The double of 2H shows strength and support for spades, but implies that my two suits are clubs and diamonds.
My Partner: I don't know why you couldn't double with four spades and three diamonds. Over my 2S bid, you should have bid 3D showing that you only had three spades, and also showing your 20 HCPs. Then, I might have bid 3N.
Your input?
Firstly, why do you play Dont? I think it is quite poor. It is also not designed to find games over a snt opening, but rather find a playable part score. This hand is just too good.
Secondly what is a X for you? OK you may not play penalty Xs.
Thirdly, playing Dont, I agree with your auction up to your partner's 2s bid. Passing 2S was an egregious error. Why not bid 2NT to show you own the minors. If you are playing with the incompetent who didn't cue on a previous post, maybe 3C would be better, however pass is very poor.
Yes, I'm not a real fan of DONT either...I play Meckwell with all of my partners except this one.

You apparently agree with my partner that my double could be made with four spades and five clubs and that if I had bid 2S rather than doubled, it would have guaranteed five spades?

Thanks for you input.
P***@yahoo.com
2016-08-18 03:02:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Player
Post by P***@yahoo.com
Masterpoints Pair Game, Vulnerable vs Not
S: A72
H: K
D: AT82
C: AKQ73
S: J83
H: QT82
D: J743
C: 52
We play DONT over strong NT openings...2C shows clubs and a higher ranking suit. Opponents play systems on over X or 2C and they play Jacoby Transfers.
(1N) 2C (2D) P
(2H) X (P) 2S
P P P
I sure wasn't happy about that one.
Me: If my higher ranking suit were spades, I would have bid it. The double of 2H shows strength and support for spades, but implies that my two suits are clubs and diamonds.
My Partner: I don't know why you couldn't double with four spades and three diamonds. Over my 2S bid, you should have bid 3D showing that you only had three spades, and also showing your 20 HCPs. Then, I might have bid 3N.
Your input?
Firstly, why do you play Dont? I think it is quite poor. It is also not designed to find games over a snt opening, but rather find a playable part score. This hand is just too good.
Secondly what is a X for you? OK you may not play penalty Xs.
Thirdly, playing Dont, I agree with your auction up to your partner's 2s bid. Passing 2S was an egregious error. Why not bid 2NT to show you own the minors. If you are playing with the incompetent who didn't cue on a previous post, maybe 3C would be better, however pass is very poor.
Yes, I'm not a real fan of DONT either...I play Meckwell with all of my partners except this one. (We play penalty doubles only over weak NTs).

You apparently agree with my partner that my double could be made with four spades and five clubs and that if I had bid 2S rather than doubled, it would have guaranteed five spades?

And you do not agree with my thinking that my bid would not have been double but would have been 2S with five clubs and four spades. You do not agree with my logic that my double was made on the possibility of either:

(a) a 4+ card heart suit, when the double would be left in for penalties, or
(b) a 4+ card spade suit, in which 2S is a fine place to play (2S actually makes even with a 3-3 fit, as it turns out),
(c) a 4+ card suit in the minors, where three of a minor is the best place to play.

My further logic was that, based on the opponent's bids, it was unlikely we had anything but a part score...which I assume you agree with.

Thanks for your feedback.
Bruce Evans
2016-08-18 07:29:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by P***@yahoo.com
Masterpoints Pair Game, Vulnerable vs Not
S: A72
H: K
D: AT82
C: AKQ73
S: J83
H: QT82
D: J743
C: 52
We play DONT over strong NT openings...2C shows clubs and a higher
ranking suit. Opponents play systems on over X or 2C and they play
Jacoby Transfers.
Ugh. Don't play DONT. But it is good for finding 4-2 breaks, not 3-3
ones. DONT overcalls are usually only 5-4 or 4-5 in the suits (sometimes
4-4) since 5-5 isn't common and the point of the method is to overcall
often so you must not wait for 5-5. Often partner has 2 in the lower
suit and may as well try to improve the contract. But that often runs
out of a 5-2 fit to a 4-2 fit. If partner always passes with 2 in the
overcall suit and 2 in a higher suit, then you find the 4-2 break even
more easily when the overcall suit was 4 cards.
Post by P***@yahoo.com
(1N) 2C (2D) P
(2H) X (P) 2S
P P P
I sure wasn't happy about that one.
Don't misplay DONT. The hand is too strong to pass at this vulnerabilty.
2C is silly because it will probably end the auction and you will usually
make 2C with an overtrick or 2 and do even worse than for 1NT down 3 when
you have a cold game. You may as well double, showing a 1-suiter. (See
the Woolsey defense for ways to get extended meanings out of a double.)
Partner will sometimes pass this. Here he should bid 2C pass/correct
and you have to guess what to do. 2NT natural seems best. Partner will
probably pass and you might even make. When it makes, it often scores
better than 2C. 2C is also far from cold, and often losers 2S 1H 2D
and 0-2C depending on the club break.

After 2C, partner should try to improve the contract by taking it out,
but the friendly opponents took it out first. Apparently they are
playing stolen bids, with 2D a transfer. That is even worse than DONT.
The X is then reasonable as takeout. It must show a lot of playing
strength and probably HCP since with just 5-5 or more shape you should
bid a suit. Partner might gamble a pass of it. Then over 2S, don't
pass since you don't have spades. Try 2NT and end up in 3D which is
probably your best contract after 2HX and may even be better than 2HX
(it it is +110 instead of +100).
Post by P***@yahoo.com
Me: If my higher ranking suit were spades, I would have bid it. The
double of 2H shows strength and support for spades, but implies that my
two suits are clubs and diamonds.
No, you shouldn't bid 2S with only 4 cards. The double shows that much
better. Double also shows the shape better. 5431 shapes are ideal for
takeout doubles. With 6421, and 4 spades and extras, still double so
as to play in the 6 card suit and not in 4-3 spade fits of 4-2 spade
breaks. Partner has to know whether 2S shows 4 cards instead of 5+
so that he knows when to pass it.
Post by P***@yahoo.com
My Partner: I don't know why you couldn't double with four spades and
three diamonds.
Correct. The X shows 4 spades only, or a very strong or very flexible
hand that doesn't want to be passed out in whatever it bids.
Post by P***@yahoo.com
Over my 2S bid, you should have bid 3D showing that you
only had three spades, and also showing your 20 HCPs. Then, I might
have bid 3N.
Wrong. 3 diamonds shows a good diamond suit, not ATxx. I think it must
show diamonds much better than clubs, else you would have bid 2NT to
play or scramble to a minor, but only 5431 shape else you wouldn't have
doubled 2H. 20 schmoints is far from enough to try to play 3D with
ATxx opposite no support.

Partner's pass of (2D) showed a lot. It showed no interest in bidding.
Not much is needed to bid. 4-4 in the majors and not to short in diamonds
and a few HCP is enough if X would be takeout. Partner either has a major
to take out too, or a diamond suit to pass with. If (2D) showed hearts,
then just 4 spades may be enough for the takeout X. This affects the
further bidding -- you shouldn't try hard to find a spade fit when you
have only 4 cards, since partner either has less than 4 spades or low HCP.

Bruce
KWSchneider
2016-08-18 15:08:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by P***@yahoo.com
Masterpoints Pair Game, Vulnerable vs Not
S: A72
H: K
D: AT82
C: AKQ73
S: J83
H: QT82
D: J743
C: 52
We play DONT over strong NT openings...2C shows clubs and a higher ranking suit. Opponents play systems on over X or 2C and they play Jacoby Transfers.
(1N) 2C (2D) P
(2H) X (P) 2S
P P P
I sure wasn't happy about that one.
Me: If my higher ranking suit were spades, I would have bid it. The double of 2H shows strength and support for spades, but implies that my two suits are clubs and diamonds.
My Partner: I don't know why you couldn't double with four spades and three diamonds. Over my 2S bid, you should have bid 3D showing that you only had three spades, and also showing your 20 HCPs. Then, I might have bid 3N.
Your input?
At your second bid, to me you had the following options (all of these assume you have 5clubs, since with 4c/5s, I would simply bid 2S):

2S -> clubs and 5s
X -> clubs and 4s
2N -> not spades (4h+5c) and willing to declare
3C -> minors
3D -> big hand minors
3H -> big hand asking for heart stopper, otherwise bid 3S (3+) or 4C (not 3+s)
3S -> big hand, clubs and 5spades
3N -> to play

Kurt
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Charles Brenner
2016-08-18 16:40:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by P***@yahoo.com
Masterpoints Pair Game, Vulnerable vs Not
S: A72
H: K
D: AT82
C: AKQ73
S: J83
H: QT82
D: J743
C: 52
We play DONT over strong NT openings...2C shows clubs and a higher ranking suit. Opponents play systems on over X or 2C and they play Jacoby Transfers.
(1N) 2C (2D) P
(2H) X (P) 2S
P P P
I sure wasn't happy about that one.
Me: If my higher ranking suit were spades, I would have bid it. The double of 2H shows strength and support for spades, but implies that my two suits are clubs and diamonds.
My Partner: I don't know why you couldn't double with four spades and three diamonds. Over my 2S bid, you should have bid 3D showing that you only had three spades, and also showing your 20 HCPs. Then, I might have bid 3N.
Your input?
A combination of close decisions went wrong. I don't see any problem. Yes, 3NT is a nice contract but that's dumb luck.

The first close decision is whether to play DONT. Some people don't like it; some, champions, do. Its underlying premise that no excuse is needed to intervene over their NT is supported by statistical studies. Choosing to play it is a reasonable choice. But when you do, being disadvantaged when the hand belongs to your side is part of the bargain, not something to whine about.

The initial 2C is hard to resist though maybe, having signed on to DONT, you should take your medicine and pass.

The strong hand's double looks obvious. Maybe some complicated coded agreement would be better if you had arranged it, but I wouldn't have. Seat of the pants, how wrong can it be to make the most flexible call when there are many possible resting spots?

The next two bids, both players gambled that partner had spades. Both are reasonable gambles -- advancer's because the cheapest bid with a weak nondescript hand, overcaller's because a spade fit is about as likely as any fit, it's at the 2 level, and you have to stop bidding eventually.
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