a ruling in Montreal

[[e-mail]]

Both non-vil, imps.

Auction

1NT - 2H - Dbl - 3H ; all pass.

1NT was 12-14.

2H was hearts and a minor.

On inquiry, the double was explained “as far as I’m concerned, 10+ hip.” Neg dbl was not checked on convention card.

The director ruled there was misinformation and made the contract 4H. Now, I have “Dbl = cards” in the notrump section.

My analysis: the non-opening side frequently operates with the 2H overcall and with the 3H advance. They believe it is their right to have the opponents reveal the operation. In this case each thought his partner was operating.

Comments?

Carl

[p***@infi.net]

Post by ***@verizon.net
Both non-vil, imps.
Auction
1NT - 2H - Dbl - 3H ; all pass.
1NT was 12-14.
2H was hearts and a minor.
On inquiry, the double was explained “as far as I’m concerned, 10+ hip.” Neg dbl was not checked on convention card.
The director ruled there was misinformation and made the contract 4H. Now, I have “Dbl = cards” in the notrump section.
My analysis: the non-opening side frequently operates with the 2H overcall and with the 3H advance. They believe it is their right to have the opponents reveal the operation. In this case each thought his partner was operating.
Comments?
Carl

I don't understand much of this post, but double for cards is not a highly unusual method, so if the ruling was that it should have been alerted I think the director needs proper instruction. Penalty would be the default understanding if negative double was not checked, so did the opponent who raised a game contract (2H doubled) to a part score claim they would have bid 4H after an alert?

I don't understand your comments about operating.

[[e-mail]]

Post by p***@infi.net
I don't understand your comments about operating.

Really??!! Each player considered (or claimed to) that his partner would have make the same bid with 5 hcp less than what they had.

You think it's not operating to bid 2H with 9 or 3H with 4? That's what each player claimed to believe about his partner.

Carl

[Player]

Why is it operating to bid 2h on a 9 count? Would you not bid 2h on akjxxxx?

[[e-mail]]

Post by Player
Why is it operating to bid 2h on a 9 count? Would you not bid 2h on akjxxxx?

But you will play in your honor-less minor at 3-level.

Carl

[Player]

Who says pd is honouseless?

[f***@googlemail.com]

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by p***@infi.net
I don't understand your comments about operating.

Really??!! Each player considered (or claimed to) that his partner would have make the same bid with 5 hcp less than what they had.
You think it's not operating to bid 2H with 9 or 3H with 4? That's what each player claimed to believe about his partner.
Carl

I would overcall 2H with fewer then 9 and the right hand. At love all, x KQJ10xx Qxxx xx is an obvious 2H overcall.

I would also raise with 4 and the right hand.
xxx xxxx x Axxxx is a 4H bid after 1NT 2H dbl if dbl is take-out. Give it slightly less shape and 3H is normal.

You seem to think it's legit to describe a call as "10+ HCP" and then do it on 5 - which is extremely risky - without any proof that 10+ is your agreement

[[e-mail]]

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by p***@infi.net
I don't understand your comments about operating.

Really??!! Each player considered (or claimed to) that his partner would have make the same bid with 5 hcp less than what they had.
You think it's not operating to bid 2H with 9 or 3H with 4? That's what each player claimed to believe about his partner.
Carl

I would overcall 2H with fewer then 9 and the right hand. At love all, x KQJ10xx Qxxx xx is an obvious 2H overcall.

Showing hearts and a minor?

[Player]

Yes of course this is a 2h overall showing h and a m. Why on earth would you think not? I really don't understand your posts Ed.

[f***@googlemail.com]

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by p***@infi.net
I don't understand your comments about operating.

Really??!! Each player considered (or claimed to) that his partner would have make the same bid with 5 hcp less than what they had.
You think it's not operating to bid 2H with 9 or 3H with 4? That's what each player claimed to believe about his partner.
Carl

I would overcall 2H with fewer then 9 and the right hand. At love all, x KQJ10xx Qxxx xx is an obvious 2H overcall.

Showing hearts and a minor?

I think we both missed that 2H was hearts-and-a-minor. That's an obvious single-suited hearts overcall

I'd certainly overcall 2H showing hearts-and-a-minor at love all on

x
Axxxx
xx
KJ10xx

[Player]

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by p***@infi.net
I don't understand your comments about operating.

Really??!! Each player considered (or claimed to) that his partner would have make the same bid with 5 hcp less than what they had.
You think it's not operating to bid 2H with 9 or 3H with 4? That's what each player claimed to believe about his partner.
Carl

I would overcall 2H with fewer then 9 and the right hand. At love all, x KQJ10xx Qxxx xx is an obvious 2H overcall.

Showing hearts and a minor?

I think we both missed that 2H was hearts-and-a-minor. That's an obvious single-suited hearts overcall
I'd certainly overcall 2H showing hearts-and-a-minor at love all on
x
Axxxx
xx
KJ10xx

Yes Frances you are correct. In your example you did have a 4 card D suit though. I also think on these overcalls that the M is always at least 5 cards in length.

[[e-mail]]

Post by f***@googlemail.com
You seem to think it's legit to describe a call as "10+ HCP" and then do it on 5 - which is extremely risky - without any proof that 10+ is your agreement

So now I'll have to put Dbl = 10+ instead of Dbl = cards.

Carl

[Player]

Carl, sorry I called you Ed, x = cards is meaningless. It is either penalty or takeout.

[p***@infi.net]

Post by Player
Carl, sorry I called you Ed, x = cards is meaningless. It is either penalty or takeout.

Nonsense. I play double shows a balanced hand with some minimum number of hcp, not specifically penalty or takeout. This has been described in the literature, and was at one time recommended by some authorities along with lebensohl -- it eliminates the uncomfortable "fast denies" 3NT, at least on balanced hands. Playing a 15-17 notrump, I play double as 8+ giving us a minimum of 23 hcp and at least 25 if opener is on a max. That would be equivalent to 11+ opposite 12-14. "Negative" generally implies four cards in an unbid major, and is often made on lighter values, making a penalty pass by opener unlikely.

[Player]

So what do you do, toss a count?

[Player]

So what do you do, toss a coin? Pray? Hire a soothsayer?

[f***@googlemail.com]

Post by p***@infi.net

Post by Player
Carl, sorry I called you Ed, x = cards is meaningless. It is either penalty or takeout.

Nonsense. I play double shows a balanced hand with some minimum number of hcp, not specifically penalty or takeout. This has been described in the literature, and was at one time recommended by some authorities along with lebensohl -- it eliminates the uncomfortable "fast denies" 3NT, at least on balanced hands. Playing a 15-17 notrump, I play double as 8+ giving us a minimum of 23 hcp and at least 25 if opener is on a max. That would be equivalent to 11+ opposite 12-14. "Negative" generally implies four cards in an unbid major, and is often made on lighter values, making a penalty pass by opener unlikely.

1NT (2H) dbl (pass)

you hold a 16-count with KJx xx AQxx AQxx

Pass or bid?

If you pass, then you are playing double as penalties
If you bid, you are playing double as take-out

You have to do one or the other

[p***@infi.net]

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by p***@infi.net

Post by Player
Carl, sorry I called you Ed, x = cards is meaningless. It is either penalty or takeout.

Nonsense. I play double shows a balanced hand with some minimum number of hcp, not specifically penalty or takeout. This has been described in the literature, and was at one time recommended by some authorities along with lebensohl -- it eliminates the uncomfortable "fast denies" 3NT, at least on balanced hands. Playing a 15-17 notrump, I play double as 8+ giving us a minimum of 23 hcp and at least 25 if opener is on a max. That would be equivalent to 11+ opposite 12-14. "Negative" generally implies four cards in an unbid major, and is often made on lighter values, making a penalty pass by opener unlikely.

1NT (2H) dbl (pass)
you hold a 16-count with KJx xx AQxx AQxx
Pass or bid?
If you pass, then you are playing double as penalties
If you bid, you are playing double as take-out
You have to do one or the other

Of course I'm not passing on that auction with that hand, nor am I rebidding notrump, so I'll bid a minor -- but I may pass if the overcall were in one of the minors. So how does that make the DOUBLE one or the other? Playing strong notrumps opener has approximately two-thirds of the strength and is in a better position than responder to judge penalty prospects. (In particular he will have a good notion of whether dummy is apt to have entires for trump finesses.) This is the agreement I have with ALL partners when the overcall is artificial (how can you double for penalty if you don't know the suit) and with several partners it is our agreement no matter what the overcall shows. If responder has a clear-cut penalty he may trap pass and opener may re-open with shortage. We give up the sure penalties and some competitive part-scores in exchange for not being stuck when we have a combined 25 hcp.

If you want to insist this is a form of takeout double which is often converted to penalties or vice-versa, fine, but I don't think that's anywhere near as clear a description (for the opponents) as "8+ hcp, generally balanced." That's our agreement, and Carl's is "10+ hcp." But his partner obviously played it differently and with nothing marked on the card adjustment may have been appropriate -- though again, I'm having trouble deciphering who had what and what Carl's complaint was.

[p***@infi.net]

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by p***@infi.net

Post by Player
Carl, sorry I called you Ed, x = cards is meaningless. It is either penalty or takeout.

Nonsense. I play double shows a balanced hand with some minimum number of hcp, not specifically penalty or takeout. This has been described in the literature, and was at one time recommended by some authorities along with lebensohl -- it eliminates the uncomfortable "fast denies" 3NT, at least on balanced hands. Playing a 15-17 notrump, I play double as 8+ giving us a minimum of 23 hcp and at least 25 if opener is on a max. That would be equivalent to 11+ opposite 12-14. "Negative" generally implies four cards in an unbid major, and is often made on lighter values, making a penalty pass by opener unlikely.

1NT (2H) dbl (pass)
you hold a 16-count with KJx xx AQxx AQxx
Pass or bid?
If you pass, then you are playing double as penalties
If you bid, you are playing double as take-out
You have to do one or the other

Since you and Player are unfamiliar with the method, let me take your example for opener and give some complete examples. Although I could use the same responding hand in each case, I'll vary it slightly depending on the suit overcalled since, logically, responder is likely to be shorter in their suit and longer elsewhere.

1NT-(2C)-dbl, responder has Qxx Axxx Jxxx Jx, opener passes or bids notrump depending perhaps on the vulnerability.

1NT-(2D)-dbl, responder has Qxx Axxx Jxx Jxx, again pass or notrump. Pass should work out well.

1NT-(2H)-dbl, responder has Qxxx Axx Jxxx Jxx, opener retreats to 3C, responder likely passes. We'd rather be in 2S or 3D or perhaps notrump. Oh well. Swap the minors and we may be in a good spot.

1NT-(2S)-dbl, responder has Qxx Axxx Jxx Jxx, opener bids 2NT or 3NT.

What would you do opposite a 15-17 notrump with those responding hands? Of course whatever method you use will gain on some other hands. But I hate knowing we have 23+ hcp and no clear bid.

[Player]

Post by p***@infi.net

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by p***@infi.net

Post by Player
Carl, sorry I called you Ed, x = cards is meaningless. It is either penalty or takeout.

Nonsense. I play double shows a balanced hand with some minimum number of hcp, not specifically penalty or takeout. This has been described in the literature, and was at one time recommended by some authorities along with lebensohl -- it eliminates the uncomfortable "fast denies" 3NT, at least on balanced hands. Playing a 15-17 notrump, I play double as 8+ giving us a minimum of 23 hcp and at least 25 if opener is on a max. That would be equivalent to 11+ opposite 12-14. "Negative" generally implies four cards in an unbid major, and is often made on lighter values, making a penalty pass by opener unlikely.

1NT (2H) dbl (pass)
you hold a 16-count with KJx xx AQxx AQxx
Pass or bid?
If you pass, then you are playing double as penalties
If you bid, you are playing double as take-out
You have to do one or the other

Since you and Player are unfamiliar with the method, let me take your example for opener and give some complete examples. Although I could use the same responding hand in each case, I'll vary it slightly depending on the suit overcalled since, logically, responder is likely to be shorter in their suit and longer elsewhere.
1NT-(2C)-dbl, responder has Qxx Axxx Jxxx Jx, opener passes or bids notrump depending perhaps on the vulnerability.
1NT-(2D)-dbl, responder has Qxx Axxx Jxx Jxx, again pass or notrump. Pass should work out well.
1NT-(2H)-dbl, responder has Qxxx Axx Jxxx Jxx, opener retreats to 3C, responder likely passes. We'd rather be in 2S or 3D or perhaps notrump. Oh well. Swap the minors and we may be in a good spot.
1NT-(2S)-dbl, responder has Qxx Axxx Jxx Jxx, opener bids 2NT or 3NT.
What would you do opposite a 15-17 notrump with those responding hands? Of course whatever method you use will gain on some other hands. But I hate knowing we have 23+ hcp and no clear bid.

Oh I am familiar with the method but I think it is unplayable. Look at what ou are doing, you are totally guessing and quite likely to end in a poor fit at the three level. Further when you pass the X you have no guarantee to beat the opponents' contract. Further I am beginning to think more and more that Carl has no cause for complaint and an adjustment was correct.

You ask what I would do on these hands and then you post "But I hate knowing we have 23+ hcp and no clear bid." Exactly and what do you do when you have no clear bid. you pass. The 1NT opener can still make a takeout X with a suitable hand enabling you to bid.

[p***@infi.net]

Post by Player

Post by p***@infi.net

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by p***@infi.net

Post by Player
Carl, sorry I called you Ed, x = cards is meaningless. It is either penalty or takeout.

Nonsense. I play double shows a balanced hand with some minimum number of hcp, not specifically penalty or takeout. This has been described in the literature, and was at one time recommended by some authorities along with lebensohl -- it eliminates the uncomfortable "fast denies" 3NT, at least on balanced hands. Playing a 15-17 notrump, I play double as 8+ giving us a minimum of 23 hcp and at least 25 if opener is on a max. That would be equivalent to 11+ opposite 12-14. "Negative" generally implies four cards in an unbid major, and is often made on lighter values, making a penalty pass by opener unlikely.

1NT (2H) dbl (pass)
you hold a 16-count with KJx xx AQxx AQxx
Pass or bid?
If you pass, then you are playing double as penalties
If you bid, you are playing double as take-out
You have to do one or the other

Since you and Player are unfamiliar with the method, let me take your example for opener and give some complete examples. Although I could use the same responding hand in each case, I'll vary it slightly depending on the suit overcalled since, logically, responder is likely to be shorter in their suit and longer elsewhere.
1NT-(2C)-dbl, responder has Qxx Axxx Jxxx Jx, opener passes or bids notrump depending perhaps on the vulnerability.
1NT-(2D)-dbl, responder has Qxx Axxx Jxx Jxx, again pass or notrump. Pass should work out well.
1NT-(2H)-dbl, responder has Qxxx Axx Jxxx Jxx, opener retreats to 3C, responder likely passes. We'd rather be in 2S or 3D or perhaps notrump. Oh well. Swap the minors and we may be in a good spot.
1NT-(2S)-dbl, responder has Qxx Axxx Jxx Jxx, opener bids 2NT or 3NT.
What would you do opposite a 15-17 notrump with those responding hands? Of course whatever method you use will gain on some other hands. But I hate knowing we have 23+ hcp and no clear bid.

Oh I am familiar with the method but I think it is unplayable. Look at what ou are doing, you are totally guessing and quite likely to end in a poor fit at the three level. Further when you pass the X you have no guarantee to beat the opponents' contract. Further I am beginning to think more and more that Carl has no cause for complaint and an adjustment was correct.
You ask what I would do on these hands and then you post "But I hate knowing we have 23+ hcp and no clear bid." Exactly and what do you do when you have no clear bid. you pass. The 1NT opener can still make a takeout X with a suitable hand enabling you to bid.

I can certainly accept "I don't like the method" from you, Frances or anyone else. Your previous posts, and hers, flat out said doubles must be takeout or penalty. That was clearly false, and pardon me for not guessing that you meant something else.

[p***@infi.net]

...you hold a 16-count with KJx xx AQxx AQxx...

...1NT-(2C)-dbl, responder has Qxx Axxx Jxxx Jx, opener passes or bids notrump depending perhaps on the vulnerability.

.. Further when you pass the X you have no guarantee to beat the opponents' contract...

Seriously? Of course there's no guarantee, but I don't think I'm guessing to defend with 23+ hcp, 6+ of their trumps, and at least two Aces. Here;s a complete layout:

Q76
A954
J762
J6
A105 9832
KQ8 J1063
10 K954
K108742 3
KJ4
72
AQ83
AQ95

Isn't 3C doubled likely to be down three? And note overcaller caught his partner with some fitting cards in hearts; this is not a cherry-picked example in the least. I'm sure there are layouts where 2C will make, or game is on and the double pays less. But I don't think it's a "guess" to leave the double in with South's hand. It would be a lot riskier to pass if North's double were simply takeout with no assurance of 8 hcp. So you would have to bid over a negative double.

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by p***@infi.net

...you hold a 16-count with KJx xx AQxx AQxx...

...1NT-(2C)-dbl, responder has Qxx Axxx Jxxx Jx, opener passes or bids notrump depending perhaps on the vulnerability.

.. Further when you pass the X you have no guarantee to beat the opponents' contract...

Q76
A954
J762
J6
A105 9832
KQ8 J1063
10 K954
K108742 3
KJ4
72
AQ83
AQ95
Isn't 3C doubled likely to be down three? And note overcaller caught his partner with some fitting cards in hearts; this is not a cherry-picked example in the least. I'm sure there are layouts where 2C will make, or game is on and the double pays less. But I don't think it's a "guess" to leave the double in with South's hand. It would be a lot riskier to pass if North's double were simply takeout with no assurance of 8 hcp. So you would have to bid over a negative double.

Mmmm, the OP said imps and both were non-vile (he forget the last 'e')
but the 2C overcall is definitely vile!

doug

[Player]

Paul, if you regularly play against people who bid 2c on this Shite I understand why you play this. In any decent game this is not close to a 2C bid.

[p***@infi.net]

Post by Player
Paul, if you regularly play against people who bid 2c on this Shite I understand why you play this. In any decent game this is not close to a 2C bid.

Kindly specify a 2C bid consistent with the example hand Frances gave for opener. Would KJ108xx qualify non-vul? (Along with side strength, I presume.)

[Player]

Post by p***@infi.net

Post by Player
Paul, if you regularly play against people who bid 2c on this Shite I understand why you play this. In any decent game this is not close to a 2C bid.

Kindly specify a 2C bid consistent with the example hand Frances gave for opener. Would KJ108xx qualify non-vul? (Along with side strength, I presume.)

What has France's hand got to do with the price of fish? Frances was talking about the OP's hand with a Heart overcall
However since you want to attempt to prove a point:
KJx xx AQxx AQxx
Axx AK xx KJT9xx or perhaps add a 7th Club.

[Robert Chance]

Post by f***@googlemail.com
1NT (2H) dbl (pass)
you hold a 16-count with KJx xx AQxx AQxx
Pass or bid?
If you pass, then you are playing double as penalties
If you bid, you are playing double as take-out
You have to do one or the other

There is a third possibility. It would be perfectly playable to have an agreement that you should pass the double on the following hand:

KJx xxx AQx AQxx

but that you pull the double on the hand you gave.

If this is the case, you are not playing the double as take-out and you are not playing it as penalty.

In times of yore, this would have been described as an optional double. This term has been much-abused (owing to confusion between optional and take-out doubles).

(Note that in the original problem, the 1NT was 12-14)

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by ***@verizon.net
Both non-vil, imps.
Auction
1NT - 2H - Dbl - 3H ; all pass.
1NT was 12-14.
2H was hearts and a minor.
On inquiry, the double was explained “as far as I’m concerned, 10+ hip.” Neg dbl was not checked on convention card.
The director ruled there was misinformation and made the contract 4H. Now, I have “Dbl = cards” in the notrump section.
My analysis: the non-opening side frequently operates with the 2H overcall and with the 3H advance. They believe it is their right to have the opponents reveal the operation. In this case each thought his partner was operating.
Comments?
Carl

How can we comment if you do not tell us what your agreement is, and
also when the oppo were told what the dble meant and whether what they
were told was correct as per your agreement (and possibly if there was
failure to alert if they did not ask until after the auction)..

[[e-mail]]

Post by Lorne Anderson

Post by ***@verizon.net
Both non-vil, imps.
Auction
1NT - 2H - Dbl - 3H ; all pass.
1NT was 12-14.
2H was hearts and a minor.
On inquiry, the double was explained “as far as I’m concerned, 10+ hip.” Neg dbl was not checked on convention card.
The director ruled there was misinformation and made the contract 4H. Now, I have “Dbl = cards” in the notrump section.
My analysis: the non-opening side frequently operates with the 2H overcall and with the 3H advance. They believe it is their right to have the opponents reveal the operation. In this case each thought his partner was operating.
Comments?
Carl

How can we comment if you do not tell us what your agreement is, and
also when the oppo were told what the dble meant and whether what they
were told was correct as per your agreement (and possibly if there was
failure to alert if they did not ask until after the auction)..

The description was replying to a question from advancer before he bid.

The complaint was that 3rd hand had 5hcp for her double.

Carl

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by Lorne Anderson

Post by ***@verizon.net
Both non-vil, imps.
Auction
1NT - 2H - Dbl - 3H ; all pass.
1NT was 12-14.
2H was hearts and a minor.
On inquiry, the double was explained “as far as I’m concerned, 10+ hip.” Neg dbl was not checked on convention card.
The director ruled there was misinformation and made the contract 4H. Now, I have “Dbl = cards” in the notrump section.
My analysis: the non-opening side frequently operates with the 2H overcall and with the 3H advance. They believe it is their right to have the opponents reveal the operation. In this case each thought his partner was operating.
Comments?
Carl

How can we comment if you do not tell us what your agreement is, and
also when the oppo were told what the dble meant and whether what they
were told was correct as per your agreement (and possibly if there was
failure to alert if they did not ask until after the auction)..

The description was replying to a question from advancer before he bid.
The complaint was that 3rd hand had 5hcp for her double.
Carl

In that case you need to show us partners hand. If your agreement is
that partner has shown 10+ points but you can't demonstrate that and
partner has the shape for a T/O double with 5 points then you are on
thin ground. Personally I do not see how anybody can double with 5
points and short hearts if the agreement is that it shows values that
would normally mean that you are thinking of a penalty.

Also you need to show your hand - if you have a balanced hand with 3
hearts to a high honour and did not make a penalty double of 3H it is
near certain proof that you allowed for the possibility that partner did
not have a card showing double and some kind of adjustment is nearly
certain.

If on the other hand partner thought the double was T/O and you have not
discussed it beyond not ticking the neg dble box it may be a bit murky
as you should have said that there was no agreement rather than guessing
but it is difficult to rule in that case without being at the table and
getting inferences from what everybody says.

Finally we also need to see the oppo hands to make sure it is reasonable
for them to bid 4H without misinformation.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Lorne Anderson

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by Lorne Anderson

Post by ***@verizon.net
Both non-vil, imps.
Auction
1NT - 2H - Dbl - 3H ; all pass.
1NT was 12-14.
2H was hearts and a minor.
On inquiry, the double was explained “as far as I’m concerned, 10+ hip.” Neg dbl was not checked on convention card.
The director ruled there was misinformation and made the contract 4H. Now, I have “Dbl = cards” in the notrump section.
My analysis: the non-opening side frequently operates with the 2H overcall and with the 3H advance. They believe it is their right to have the opponents reveal the operation. In this case each thought his partner was operating.
Comments?
Carl

How can we comment if you do not tell us what your agreement is, and
also when the oppo were told what the dble meant and whether what they
were told was correct as per your agreement (and possibly if there was
failure to alert if they did not ask until after the auction)..

The description was replying to a question from advancer before he bid.
The complaint was that 3rd hand had 5hcp for her double.
Carl

In that case you need to show us partners hand. If your agreement is
that partner has shown 10+ points but you can't demonstrate that and
partner has the shape for a T/O double with 5 points then you are on
thin ground. Personally I do not see how anybody can double with 5
points and short hearts if the agreement is that it shows values that
would normally mean that you are thinking of a penalty.
Also you need to show your hand - if you have a balanced hand with 3
hearts to a high honour and did not make a penalty double of 3H it is
near certain proof that you allowed for the possibility that partner did
not have a card showing double and some kind of adjustment is nearly
certain.

IMPS!!!!

Carl

[jogs]

Post by ***@verizon.net
Both non-vil, imps.
Auction
1NT - 2H - Dbl - 3H ; all pass.
1NT was 12-14.
2H was hearts and a minor.
On inquiry, the double was explained “as far as I’m concerned, 10+ hip.” Neg dbl was not checked on convention card.
The director ruled there was misinformation and made the contract 4H. Now, I have “Dbl = cards” in the notrump section.
My analysis: the non-opening side frequently operates with the 2H overcall and with the 3H advance. They believe it is their right to have the opponents reveal the operation. In this case each thought his partner was operating.
Comments?
Carl

Directors get to see the entire board.
I also don't understand the entire situation.
Did your side have 22+ HCP? Opponents bid 3H, made 10 tricks and want to be credited for 4H=?
Or was it the doubler had much less than 10 HCP?

[f***@googlemail.com]

Post by ***@verizon.net
Both non-vil, imps.
Auction
1NT - 2H - Dbl - 3H ; all pass.
1NT was 12-14.
2H was hearts and a minor.
On inquiry, the double was explained “as far as I’m concerned, 10+ hip.” Neg dbl was not checked on convention card.
The director ruled there was misinformation and made the contract 4H. Now, I have “Dbl = cards” in the notrump section.
My analysis: the non-opening side frequently operates with the 2H overcall and with the 3H advance. They believe it is their right to have the opponents reveal the operation. In this case each thought his partner was operating.
Comments?
Carl

Like everyone else, I am completely lost by this post.
What the partnership agreement for the double of 2H?
What does '10+ HCP' mean - is opener expected to pass (it's a penalty double), or bid (it's a take-out double)?

When responder turns out to have a 5-count and the bid has been explained as 10+ then there has either been a misbid or a misexplanation. I would also tend to rule the latter without substantive evidence for the former.

If opener thought that responder had shown 10+ HCP then why did he not act over 3H?

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If opener thought that responder had shown 10+ HCP then why did he not act over 3H?

Because I was 4333 12 count.

Carl