Discussion:
question on changing bid
(too old to reply)
c***@hotmail.com
2016-08-18 23:21:30 UTC
Permalink
dealer bids 1 club
2nd hand passes
3rd hand, dealers partner, bids 2 spades
nothing is said for a short period of time, waiting on player 4 to bid
3rd player then says, before 3th hand has bid, but after a pause, "oh no, I meant to say 1 spade.

Is this permissible after a pause after bidding the 2 spades?
Dave Flower
2016-08-19 08:44:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@hotmail.com
dealer bids 1 club
2nd hand passes
3rd hand, dealers partner, bids 2 spades
nothing is said for a short period of time, waiting on player 4 to bid
3rd player then says, before 3th hand has bid, but after a pause, "oh no, I meant to say 1 spade.
Is this permissible after a pause after bidding the 2 spades?
The Laws state that the bid may be changed if it is 'without pause for thought'.

It sounds to me as though the wrong bid was pulled out of the bidding box, and that the player reacted immediately on seeing the wrong bidding card; I would therefore allow a change of bid to be made.

However, the Director should attempt to establish the facts, and rule accordingly

David Flower
p***@infi.net
2016-08-19 20:25:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
Post by c***@hotmail.com
dealer bids 1 club
2nd hand passes
3rd hand, dealers partner, bids 2 spades
nothing is said for a short period of time, waiting on player 4 to bid
3rd player then says, before 3th hand has bid, but after a pause, "oh no, I meant to say 1 spade.
Is this permissible after a pause after bidding the 2 spades?
The Laws state that the bid may be changed if it is 'without pause for thought'.
It sounds to me as though the wrong bid was pulled out of the bidding box, and that the player reacted immediately on seeing the wrong bidding card; I would therefore allow a change of bid to be made.
However, the Director should attempt to establish the facts, and rule accordingly
David Flower
I've seen opinions to the effect that since 1S and 2S are not adjacent in the bidding box, this probably wasn't a mechanical error, simply confusion over what level was required for a simple overcall.
Travis Crump
2016-08-20 01:33:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@infi.net
Post by Dave Flower
Post by c***@hotmail.com
dealer bids 1 club
2nd hand passes
3rd hand, dealers partner, bids 2 spades
nothing is said for a short period of time, waiting on player 4 to bid
3rd player then says, before 3th hand has bid, but after a pause, "oh no, I meant to say 1 spade.
Is this permissible after a pause after bidding the 2 spades?
The Laws state that the bid may be changed if it is 'without pause for thought'.
It sounds to me as though the wrong bid was pulled out of the bidding box, and that the player reacted immediately on seeing the wrong bidding card; I would therefore allow a change of bid to be made.
However, the Director should attempt to establish the facts, and rule accordingly
David Flower
I've seen opinions to the effect that since 1S and 2S are not adjacent in the bidding box, this probably wasn't a mechanical error, simply confusion over what level was required for a simple overcall.
How are they not adjacent? I've seen this argument more for inadvertant
passes.
p***@infi.net
2016-08-20 14:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travis Crump
Post by p***@infi.net
Post by Dave Flower
Post by c***@hotmail.com
dealer bids 1 club
2nd hand passes
3rd hand, dealers partner, bids 2 spades
nothing is said for a short period of time, waiting on player 4 to bid
3rd player then says, before 3th hand has bid, but after a pause, "oh no, I meant to say 1 spade.
Is this permissible after a pause after bidding the 2 spades?
The Laws state that the bid may be changed if it is 'without pause for thought'.
It sounds to me as though the wrong bid was pulled out of the bidding box, and that the player reacted immediately on seeing the wrong bidding card; I would therefore allow a change of bid to be made.
However, the Director should attempt to establish the facts, and rule accordingly
David Flower
I've seen opinions to the effect that since 1S and 2S are not adjacent in the bidding box, this probably wasn't a mechanical error, simply confusion over what level was required for a simple overcall.
How are they not adjacent? I've seen this argument more for inadvertant
passes.
2H, for example, is adjacent to 2S. A player can easily pull the one intending the other. But 1S and 2S are not adjacent, and can e argued to represent a slip of the mind rather than the fingers. There is something "instinctive" about bidding 2 over a 1 bid. Anyway, that's the argument, so you should not assume that you can correct 2S back to 1S and, of course, should call the director, accept the table ruling graciously, and discuss it later if you disagree.
Lorne Anderson
2016-08-20 17:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@infi.net
Post by Travis Crump
Post by p***@infi.net
Post by Dave Flower
Post by c***@hotmail.com
dealer bids 1 club
2nd hand passes
3rd hand, dealers partner, bids 2 spades
nothing is said for a short period of time, waiting on player 4 to bid
3rd player then says, before 3th hand has bid, but after a pause, "oh no, I meant to say 1 spade.
Is this permissible after a pause after bidding the 2 spades?
The Laws state that the bid may be changed if it is 'without pause for thought'.
It sounds to me as though the wrong bid was pulled out of the bidding box, and that the player reacted immediately on seeing the wrong bidding card; I would therefore allow a change of bid to be made.
However, the Director should attempt to establish the facts, and rule accordingly
David Flower
I've seen opinions to the effect that since 1S and 2S are not adjacent in the bidding box, this probably wasn't a mechanical error, simply confusion over what level was required for a simple overcall.
How are they not adjacent? I've seen this argument more for inadvertant
passes.
2H, for example, is adjacent to 2S. A player can easily pull the one intending the other. But 1S and 2S are not adjacent, and can e argued to represent a slip of the mind rather than the fingers. There is something "instinctive" about bidding 2 over a 1 bid. Anyway, that's the argument, so you should not assume that you can correct 2S back to 1S and, of course, should call the director, accept the table ruling graciously, and discuss it later if you disagree.
They are adjacent in all bidding boxes I have ever used. For those with
the suits arranged horizontally and level of bidding vertical the 2S is
under the 1S, and for those with the suits arranged vertically and the
level horizntally 2S is to the side of 1S.
p***@infi.net
2016-08-21 01:18:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
Post by p***@infi.net
Post by Travis Crump
Post by p***@infi.net
Post by Dave Flower
Post by c***@hotmail.com
dealer bids 1 club
2nd hand passes
3rd hand, dealers partner, bids 2 spades
nothing is said for a short period of time, waiting on player 4 to bid
3rd player then says, before 3th hand has bid, but after a pause, "oh no, I meant to say 1 spade.
Is this permissible after a pause after bidding the 2 spades?
The Laws state that the bid may be changed if it is 'without pause for thought'.
It sounds to me as though the wrong bid was pulled out of the bidding box, and that the player reacted immediately on seeing the wrong bidding card; I would therefore allow a change of bid to be made.
However, the Director should attempt to establish the facts, and rule accordingly
David Flower
I've seen opinions to the effect that since 1S and 2S are not adjacent in the bidding box, this probably wasn't a mechanical error, simply confusion over what level was required for a simple overcall.
How are they not adjacent? I've seen this argument more for inadvertant
passes.
2H, for example, is adjacent to 2S. A player can easily pull the one intending the other. But 1S and 2S are not adjacent, and can e argued to represent a slip of the mind rather than the fingers. There is something "instinctive" about bidding 2 over a 1 bid. Anyway, that's the argument, so you should not assume that you can correct 2S back to 1S and, of course, should call the director, accept the table ruling graciously, and discuss it later if you disagree.
They are adjacent in all bidding boxes I have ever used. For those with
the suits arranged horizontally and level of bidding vertical the 2S is
under the 1S, and for those with the suits arranged vertically and the
level horizntally 2S is to the side of 1S.
Ah, of course, I wasn't actually looking at a box. Ignore my comments.
Lorne Anderson
2016-08-19 11:26:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@hotmail.com
dealer bids 1 club
2nd hand passes
3rd hand, dealers partner, bids 2 spades
nothing is said for a short period of time, waiting on player 4 to bid
3rd player then says, before 3th hand has bid, but after a pause, "oh no, I meant to say 1 spade.
Is this permissible after a pause after bidding the 2 spades?
It is allowed as long as the player made that statement as soon as they
realised what had happened and as long as it was an accidental bid of 2S
and not a change of mind and as long as partner has not yet called.

If there is doubt then from a practcal point of view if there was no
stop card used and the player was known to use the card properly that
would be powerful evidence that the call was inadvertant. Difficulties
might arise if they play unusual methods (ie 2S = fit bid with 5S+4C)
and the hand fits a strong single suited jump or a very weak jump shift
suggesting the possibility the player forgot the system initially. You
can't change a bid if you forget the system and remember 1 second later
because at the time you bid you did intend to make that call.
Barry Margolin
2016-08-19 19:26:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
Post by c***@hotmail.com
dealer bids 1 club
2nd hand passes
3rd hand, dealers partner, bids 2 spades
nothing is said for a short period of time, waiting on player 4 to bid
3rd player then says, before 3th hand has bid, but after a pause, "oh no, I
meant to say 1 spade.
Is this permissible after a pause after bidding the 2 spades?
It is allowed as long as the player made that statement as soon as they
realised what had happened and as long as it was an accidental bid of 2S
and not a change of mind and as long as partner has not yet called.
If there is doubt then from a practcal point of view if there was no
stop card used and the player was known to use the card properly that
would be powerful evidence that the call was inadvertant. Difficulties
might arise if they play unusual methods (ie 2S = fit bid with 5S+4C)
and the hand fits a strong single suited jump or a very weak jump shift
suggesting the possibility the player forgot the system initially. You
can't change a bid if you forget the system and remember 1 second later
because at the time you bid you did intend to make that call.
The OP didn't mention an alert, so I think we can assume that it's not
something unusual like that. It probably shouldn't be weak jump shift,
because that's also alertable (in ACBL).

I think the only non-alertable meaning in ACBL territory is a strong
jump shift, although the definition of "strong" isn't precisely defined
(when I first learned, it was any game forcing hand, but most people who
use SJS these days make it slammish).
--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA
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