strong hand, but no fit, when partner overcalls

[dfm]

Matchpoints. Favorable vulnerability. You hold

A5
Q9854
AK83
K2

and the auction starts on your left with (1C)-1S-(P)-?.

What do you bid?

I tried 2C, thinking that I had no other forcing bid and intending to show my hearts on the next round. My partner thought I was promising spade support, and we ended up in a bad spade contract instead of an easy 4H.

What are your agreements about this situation?

[Co Wiersma]

Post by dfm
Matchpoints. Favorable vulnerability. You hold
A5
Q9854
AK83
K2
and the auction starts on your left with (1C)-1S-(P)-?.
What do you bid?
I tried 2C, thinking that I had no other forcing bid and intending to show my hearts on the next round. My partner thought I was promising spade support, and we ended up in a bad spade contract instead of an easy 4H.
What are your agreements about this situation?

I play 2C two way
Either a gametry with spade support or a gameforcing

I am not sure the hand is strong enough for a gameforce as I expect the
club King may be useless
So I guess I may bid 2H (non forcing), but I not happy with that either,
as it could easy make us end up in a very bad 2H contract.
Prolly best to bid 2C anyway

What was partners respond to your 2C bid? I guess 3S?
Very hard to find a 5-3 fit hearts here

Co Wiersma

[Sandy Barnes]

Post by dfm
Matchpoints. Favorable vulnerability. You hold
A5
Q9854
AK83
K2
and the auction starts on your left with (1C)-1S-(P)-?.
What do you bid?
I tried 2C, thinking that I had no other forcing bid and intending to show my hearts on the next round. My partner thought I was promising spade support, and we ended up in a bad spade contract instead of an easy 4H.
What are your agreements about this situation?

As you have discovered, agreements are everything. Knowing your standard for a simple 1S overcall is need to suggest a workable system. This being said, the question is can you force without a cue bid, and should you force. My agreements are simple. A new suit in such an auction is a 1 round force, denies 3-card support for partner's suit. Partner with a sub-minimum can elect to pass the forcing bid, but a re-bid in his own suit promises no extra values. We play the cue bid shows support for partners suit, and we play fit-showing-jumps as well. Cue bids a limit or better. Fit Showing Jumps are strong game efforts, with strong values in the new suit. Your example hand, with 3-card spade support, would not qualify.

[Player]

Post by dfm
Matchpoints. Favorable vulnerability. You hold
A5
Q9854
AK83
K2
and the auction starts on your left with (1C)-1S-(P)-?.
What do you bid?
I tried 2C, thinking that I had no other forcing bid and intending to show my hearts on the next round. My partner thought I was promising spade support, and we ended up in a bad spade contract instead of an easy 4H.
What are your agreements about this situation

I play transfer responses to overcalls. So on your hand I would bid 2D. If pd bids 2S I would raise to 3 or bid 2NT to show a dicey C stopper. If pd bids 2H, showing 3 cards, I would bid 3H. If he bids 3H showing 4 I would raise.

[Sandy Barnes]

Post by Player

Post by dfm
Matchpoints. Favorable vulnerability. You hold
A5
Q9854
AK83
K2
and the auction starts on your left with (1C)-1S-(P)-?.
What do you bid?
I tried 2C, thinking that I had no other forcing bid and intending to show my hearts on the next round. My partner thought I was promising spade support, and we ended up in a bad spade contract instead of an easy 4H.
What are your agreements about this situation

I play transfer responses to overcalls. So on your hand I would bid 2D. If pd bids 2S I would raise to 3 or bid 2NT to show a dicey C stopper. If pd bids 2H, showing 3 cards, I would bid 3H. If he bids 3H showing 4 I would raise.

I very much like transfer responses in the auction above. My agreements are that partner must take the transfer, unless he is weak with a good suit, and in this case he can rebid his suit. All suits are transfers (including 2C in this auction) and 2H is a spade raise, less than limit raise values. Transfers end (in this auction) at 2S (which is a transfer to 3C {limit raise of spades}. Above 3C, all suit bids a fit showing jumps. All transfer sequences show limit raise or better values. In this auction, transferring to hearts, and then bidding 2S shows hearts, with spade tolerance, typically less than 3 card spade support.

[jogs]

Post by dfm
Matchpoints. Favorable vulnerability. You hold
A5
Q9854
AK83
K2
and the auction starts on your left with (1C)-1S-(P)-?.
What do you bid?
I tried 2C, thinking that I had no other forcing bid and intending to show my hearts on the next round. My partner thought I was promising spade support, and we ended up in a bad spade contract instead of an easy 4H.
What are your agreements about this situation?

Is 2H forcing? If not, 2C is your only choice.

[p***@infi.net]

Post by dfm
Matchpoints. Favorable vulnerability. You hold
A5
Q9854
AK83
K2
and the auction starts on your left with (1C)-1S-(P)-?.
What do you bid?
I tried 2C, thinking that I had no other forcing bid and intending to show my hearts on the next round. My partner thought I was promising spade support, and we ended up in a bad spade contract instead of an easy 4H.
What are your agreements about this situation?

This came up in a discussion at Bridgewinners recently. As I see it, you can either play new suit forcing, cue-bid = raise, or play new suit non-forcing, cue-bid = general force. That second method is used in Bridge World Standard, a system derived by consensus among North American experts.

I use the first method with most of my partners, the second with one who prefers new suit non-forcing constructive; we also agreed that jump shifts were forcing. A lot of club players have adopted cue=raise without considering what to do with 16 hcp and no fit for partner. Silly to have no bid for the best hand at the table.

[smn]

Post by dfm
Matchpoints. Favorable vulnerability. You hold
A5
Q9854
AK83
K2
and the auction starts on your left with (1C)-1S-(P)-?.
What do you bid?
I tried 2C, thinking that I had no other forcing bid and intending to show my hearts on the next round. My partner thought I was promising spade support, and we ended up in a bad spade contract instead of an easy 4H.
What are your agreements about this situation?

I would worry about 2c being taken as a limit raise or better in spades even though technically it might be a strong hand (you have 16 hcp but partner probably has only 8 or so ) with an independent suit (but your 5 hearts are hardly strong ). I would bid only 2h ,partner might be able to raise to 3 or do something to clarify matters . You might miss a game but that's bridge -frankly I think game unlikely ; hmm maybe partner can bid 2n then you could bid 3n .Regards,smn

[t***@att.net]

I like 2H non-forcing also. My hand has not improved on the bidding; it's probably worth less than first estimated as the Club King is likely to be misplaced. The 1S overcall is (I think) rather wide ranging so Partner must be relied upon to do the right thing.

[Sandy Barnes]

Post by dfm
Matchpoints. Favorable vulnerability. You hold
A5
Q9854
AK83
K2
and the auction starts on your left with (1C)-1S-(P)-?.
What do you bid?
I tried 2C, thinking that I had no other forcing bid and intending to show my hearts on the next round. My partner thought I was promising spade support, and we ended up in a bad spade contract instead of an easy 4H.
What are your agreements about this situation?

How about pass (assuming that the opponents are playing negative Doubles)? Opener has to reopen, and you can put the lash to them. If they escape to 2C, you can now advance with your heart suit, and partner will know it is you that has values. I am not sure that 2H is forcing, or even that I want to force.

[Player]

Why does opener HAVE to reopen? It is a peculiar style that you play.

[Co Wiersma]

Post by Player
Why does opener HAVE to reopen? It is a peculiar style that you play.

Opener does have to reopen to allow his/her partner to pass with a hand
very suited for a penalty double

But opener does of cause not have to reopen if his/her hand makes that
situation unlikely.


Co Wiersma

[Will in New Haven]

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by Player
Why does opener HAVE to reopen? It is a peculiar style that you play.

Opener does have to reopen to allow his/her partner to pass with a hand
very suited for a penalty double

This is not the case. Certainly, partner can have a penalty pass of the double but opener is trying to get partner to _compete_ By the way, hands "very suited for a penalty double," one-dimensional hands with a trump stack, did not double even before there were Negative Doubles. A penalty double of a 2C overcall when partner opened 1S looked more like this: xx AKx AJxx Jxx and opener would often pull it.

Post by Co Wiersma
But opener does of cause not have to reopen if his/her hand makes that
situation unlikely.

Opener can't reopen by doubling with length in the suit overcalled because he or she will be short somewhere else and partner will surely bid that suit.

[Co Wiersma]

Post by Will in New Haven

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by Player
Why does opener HAVE to reopen? It is a peculiar style that you play.

Opener does have to reopen to allow his/her partner to pass with a hand
very suited for a penalty double

This is not the case. Certainly, partner can have a penalty pass of the double but opener is trying to get partner to _compete_ By the way, hands "very suited for a penalty double," one-dimensional hands with a trump stack, did not double even before there were Negative Doubles. A penalty double of a 2C overcall when partner opened 1S looked more like this: xx AKx AJxx Jxx and opener would often pull it.

Post by Co Wiersma
But opener does of cause not have to reopen if his/her hand makes that
situation unlikely.

Opener can't reopen by doubling with length in the suit overcalled because he or she will be short somewhere else and partner will surely bid that suit.

Is that not about what I said?

[Will in New Haven]

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by Will in New Haven

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by Player
Why does opener HAVE to reopen? It is a peculiar style that you play.

Opener does have to reopen to allow his/her partner to pass with a hand
very suited for a penalty double

This is not the case. Certainly, partner can have a penalty pass of the double but opener is trying to get partner to _compete_ By the way, hands "very suited for a penalty double," one-dimensional hands with a trump stack, did not double even before there were Negative Doubles. A penalty double of a 2C overcall when partner opened 1S looked more like this: xx AKx AJxx Jxx and opener would often pull it.

Post by Co Wiersma
But opener does of cause not have to reopen if his/her hand makes that
situation unlikely.

Opener can't reopen by doubling with length in the suit overcalled because he or she will be short somewhere else and partner will surely bid that suit.

Is that not about what I said?

What I was disagreeing with was the _purpose_ of the reopening double and the unstated idea that it was made necessary by the advent of the negative double.

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by Sandy Barnes

Post by dfm
Matchpoints. Favorable vulnerability. You hold
A5
Q9854
AK83
K2
and the auction starts on your left with (1C)-1S-(P)-?.
What do you bid?
I tried 2C, thinking that I had no other forcing bid and intending to show my hearts on the next round. My partner thought I was promising spade support, and we ended up in a bad spade contract instead of an easy 4H.
What are your agreements about this situation?

How about pass (assuming that the opponents are playing negative Doubles)? Opener has to reopen, and you can put the lash to them. If they escape to 2C, you can now advance with your heart suit, and partner will know it is you that has values. I am not sure that 2H is forcing, or even that I want to force.

Partner will not reopen with a weak balanced hand that has some spade
length.

[jogs]

Post by Sandy Barnes

Post by dfm
Matchpoints. Favorable vulnerability. You hold
A5
Q9854
AK83
K2
and the auction starts on your left with (1C)-1S-(P)-?.
What do you bid?
I tried 2C, thinking that I had no other forcing bid and intending to show my hearts on the next round. My partner thought I was promising spade support, and we ended up in a bad spade contract instead of an easy 4H.
What are your agreements about this situation?

How about pass (assuming that the opponents are playing negative Doubles)? Opener has to reopen, and you can put the lash to them. If they escape to 2C, you can now advance with your heart suit, and partner will know it is you that has values. I am not sure that 2H is forcing, or even that I want to force.

I like 2H forcing and 2D not forcing.
If opener is required to reopen, I believe the pass must be alerted.

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by dfm
Matchpoints. Favorable vulnerability. You hold
A5
Q9854
AK83
K2
and the auction starts on your left with (1C)-1S-(P)-?.
What do you bid?
I tried 2C, thinking that I had no other forcing bid and intending to show my hearts on the next round. My partner thought I was promising spade support, and we ended up in a bad spade contract instead of an easy 4H.
What are your agreements about this situation?

I'm not actually sure with my partners. I'll have to check.

In this situation, I would normally assume a change of suit was forcing for one round (it is forcing opposite an opening bid, so should be no more difficult to play it forcing opposite an overcall), and a cue bid of openers suit showed a hand interested in game (not necessarily showing support for partner). If a change of suit is not forcing then I would either cue bid, or bid 2 or 3NT, depending on how frisky I was feeling. 3NT has very good chances on a club lead opposite SKQxxxx and a bust outside, and that is a WJO; a simple overcall will nearly always have a picture card outside the suit when you are looking at the ace.

[Co Wiersma]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by dfm
Matchpoints. Favorable vulnerability. You hold
A5
Q9854
AK83
K2
and the auction starts on your left with (1C)-1S-(P)-?.
What do you bid?
I tried 2C, thinking that I had no other forcing bid and intending to show my hearts on the next round. My partner thought I was promising spade support, and we ended up in a bad spade contract instead of an easy 4H.
What are your agreements about this situation?

I'm not actually sure with my partners. I'll have to check.
In this situation, I would normally assume a change of suit was forcing for one round (it is forcing opposite an opening bid, so should be no more difficult to play it forcing opposite an overcall), and a cue bid of openers suit showed a hand interested in game (not necessarily showing support for partner). If a change of suit is not forcing then I would either cue bid, or bid 2 or 3NT, depending on how frisky I was feeling. 3NT has very good chances on a club lead opposite SKQxxxx and a bust outside, and that is a WJO; a simple overcall will nearly always have a picture card outside the suit when you are looking at the ace.

Its not difficult to play it forcing
There is just two different logic options about this situation.

One is that a new suit is forcing in both cases

The other option is to see that you always need a forcing bid
And if partner overcalls, you "always" have the cuebid as forcing
But if partner opens, you often have no cuebid, so you need an response
as forcing.

Co Wiersma

[s***@gmail.com]

I agree that 2C is the only force. It creates a forcing
scenario (e.g. to raise spades without fear of being passed),
but is NOT necessarily forcing all the way to game.

Does the bid strongly suggest good spade tolerance? Yes,
but your Ax *IS* acceptable secondary support.

I don't see the problem. Are partner's hearts good
enough to bid 2H over 2C?

[p***@atero.se]

Post by s***@gmail.com
I agree that 2C is the only force. It creates a forcing
scenario (e.g. to raise spades without fear of being passed),
but is NOT necessarily forcing all the way to game.
Does the bid strongly suggest good spade tolerance? Yes,
but your Ax *IS* acceptable secondary support.
I don't see the problem. Are partner's hearts good
enough to bid 2H over 2C?

We have had Rubens work on the Useful Space Principle for 40 years now. Transfers should be default to advanced+ players. Swedish experts has added a useful extension: 1S - (2C) - pass - 2D = Hearts and 2H equals D.