bidding with a 5-card major and a 6-card minor

[dfm]

When you have a minimum opener with a 5-card major and a 6-card minor, which do you open?

If you ever open the minor, what do you think of the following agreement?

After 1m-1NT-2m, responder bids 2H with three hearts and perhaps also three spades, or 2S with three spades and not three hearts. Opener can then pass, correct back to 3m, or bid 2S over 2H (which responder can correct to 3m).

This would allow 5-6 hands to open the minor but still play in 2 of the major when there's a 5-3 fit. It would also create some opportunities to play 4-6 hands in a 4-3 major fit instead of in the minor (which might or might not give good results at matchpoints). It would usually lose when it lands you in 3m, going down.

[Travis Crump]

Post by dfm
When you have a minimum opener with a 5-card major and a 6-card minor, which do you open?
If you ever open the minor, what do you think of the following agreement?
After 1m-1NT-2m, responder bids 2H with three hearts and perhaps also three spades, or 2S with three spades and not three hearts. Opener can then pass, correct back to 3m, or bid 2S over 2H (which responder can correct to 3m).
This would allow 5-6 hands to open the minor but still play in 2 of the major when there's a 5-3 fit. It would also create some opportunities to play 4-6 hands in a 4-3 major fit instead of in the minor (which might or might not give good results at matchpoints). It would usually lose when it lands you in 3m, going down.

I'm an open the major person, but if you open the minor I think you just
have to be prepared to bury the major. I don't see how this system is
playable. 5-6 is rare enough that you are essentially raising to the
three level so are you only doing it with a fit and a good 9 count? Are
you pre-competing expecting the opponents to balance? But then why have
it be non-forcing as if you do have a double fit you may still have
game. Meanwhile you are just giving away info to the opponents.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Travis Crump

Post by dfm
When you have a minimum opener with a 5-card major and a 6-card minor, which do you open?
If you ever open the minor, what do you think of the following agreement?
After 1m-1NT-2m, responder bids 2H with three hearts and perhaps also three spades, or 2S with three spades and not three hearts. Opener can then pass, correct back to 3m, or bid 2S over 2H (which responder can correct to 3m).
This would allow 5-6 hands to open the minor but still play in 2 of the major when there's a 5-3 fit. It would also create some opportunities to play 4-6 hands in a 4-3 major fit instead of in the minor (which might or might not give good results at matchpoints). It would usually lose when it lands you in 3m, going down.

I'm an open the major person, but if you open the minor I think you just
have to be prepared to bury the major. I don't see how this system is
playable. 5-6 is rare enough that you are essentially raising to the
three level so are you only doing it with a fit and a good 9 count? Are
you pre-competing expecting the opponents to balance? But then why have
it be non-forcing as if you do have a double fit you may still have
game. Meanwhile you are just giving away info to the opponents.

No you have to be prepared to bid the major without fear. Like Belladonna playing Roman.

Carl

[Tom]

Post by dfm
When you have a minimum opener with a 5-card major and a 6-card minor, which do you open?
If you ever open the minor, what do you think of the following
agreement?
After 1m-1NT-2m, responder bids 2H with three hearts and perhaps also
three spades, or 2S with three spades and not three hearts. Opener can
then pass, correct back to 3m, or bid 2S over 2H (which responder can
correct to 3m).
This would allow 5-6 hands to open the minor but still play in 2 of
the major when there's a 5-3 fit. It would also create some
opportunities to play 4-6 hands in a 4-3 major fit instead of in the
minor (which might or might not give good results at matchpoints). It
would usually lose when it lands you in 3m, going down.

I bid them naturally. Yesterday on BBO, I had QJTxx A AJTxxx x. Had I
opened 1S, the auction would have gone 2H 3H 5H back to me. Our bidding
went 1D 1H P 4H and I had an easy 4S call. Pard passed with AKx QTx Kxx
xxxx. LHO led the HK and I made 7 for about 65% on the board.

-- Tom Reid

[Ars Ivci]

Post by Tom

Post by dfm
When you have a minimum opener with a 5-card major and a 6-card minor, which do you open?
If you ever open the minor, what do you think of the following agreement?
After 1m-1NT-2m, responder bids 2H with three hearts and perhaps also
three spades, or 2S with three spades and not three hearts. Opener can
then pass, correct back to 3m, or bid 2S over 2H (which responder can
correct to 3m).
This would allow 5-6 hands to open the minor but still play in 2 of
the major when there's a 5-3 fit. It would also create some
opportunities to play 4-6 hands in a 4-3 major fit instead of in the
minor (which might or might not give good results at matchpoints). It
would usually lose when it lands you in 3m, going down.

I bid them naturally. Yesterday on BBO, I had QJTxx A AJTxxx x. Had I
opened 1S, the auction would have gone 2H 3H 5H back to me. Our bidding
went 1D 1H P 4H and I had an easy 4S call. Pard passed with AKx QTx Kxx
xxxx. LHO led the HK and I made 7 for about 65% on the board.
-- Tom Reid

It worked because you had spades and a minor. I'd stick to opening the
major especially with hearts.
t.

[Player]

I totally agree with this by Ars. With spades you can open the minor, (though I would not). With hearts are you going to bid 5H over a 4S bid?

[Will in New Haven]

Post by dfm
When you have a minimum opener with a 5-card major and a 6-card minor, which do you open?
If you ever open the minor, what do you think of the following agreement?
After 1m-1NT-2m, responder bids 2H with three hearts and perhaps also three spades, or 2S with three spades and not three hearts. Opener can then pass, correct back to 3m, or bid 2S over 2H (which responder can correct to 3m).
This would allow 5-6 hands to open the minor but still play in 2 of the major when there's a 5-3 fit. It would also create some opportunities to play 4-6 hands in a 4-3 major fit instead of in the minor (which might or might not give good results at matchpoints). It would usually lose when it lands you in 3m, going down.

That also allows you to find yourself in an impossible position. With Clubs and Spades, I open 1C. The auction usually allows me to show my shape.
With Diamonds and Spades, I might open a really good Spade suit but I would tend to open 1D,
The real problems seen to occur when the Major is Hearts. I will open 1H, especially if the Minor is Diamonds, fairly often.

[Fred.]

If the major is spades I open the minor, otherwise I open hearts, less from
fear of a spade response than preemptive defensive bidding in spades. If
you consider playing strength then as little as Axxxx-x-AJxxxx-x is a full
king above a minimum opening and worthy of a light reverse. Excusing the
jack wouldn't make it much of a shade.

As for your convention, why not play the reverse after the 1NT response
as non-forcing and use a jump reverse for hands where you wish to force to
the 4-level. This will allow a weak 1-suiter, which comes up much more
often than a weak 5-6, to pull 1NT to 2m.

Fred.

Post by dfm
When you have a minimum opener with a 5-card major and a 6-card minor, which do you open?
If you ever open the minor, what do you think of the following agreement?
After 1m-1NT-2m, responder bids 2H with three hearts and perhaps also three spades, or 2S with three spades and not three hearts. Opener can then pass, correct back to 3m, or bid 2S over 2H (which responder can correct to 3m).
This would allow 5-6 hands to open the minor but still play in 2 of the major when there's a 5-3 fit. It would also create some opportunities to play 4-6 hands in a 4-3 major fit instead of in the minor (which might or might not give good results at matchpoints). It would usually lose when it lands you in 3m, going down.

[Player]

Post by Fred.
If the major is spades I open the minor, otherwise I open hearts, less from
fear of a spade response than preemptive defensive bidding in spades. If
you consider playing strength then as little as Axxxx-x-AJxxxx-x is a full
king above a minimum opening and worthy of a light reverse. Excusing the
jack wouldn't make it much of a shade.
As for your convention, why not play the reverse after the 1NT response
as non-forcing and use a jump reverse for hands where you wish to force to
the 4-level. This will allow a weak 1-suiter, which comes up much more
often than a weak 5-6, to pull 1NT to 2m.
Fred.

Post by dfm
When you have a minimum opener with a 5-card major and a 6-card minor, which do you open?
If you ever open the minor, what do you think of the following agreement?
After 1m-1NT-2m, responder bids 2H with three hearts and perhaps also three spades, or 2S with three spades and not three hearts. Opener can then pass, correct back to 3m, or bid 2S over 2H (which responder can correct to 3m).
This would allow 5-6 hands to open the minor but still play in 2 of the major when there's a 5-3 fit. It would also create some opportunities to play 4-6 hands in a 4-3 major fit instead of in the minor (which might or might not give good results at matchpoints). It would usually lose when it lands you in 3m, going down.

It is interesting that in some 2/1 based systems such as Polish Club not to open a Major is to deny one. Robinson in Washington Standard has the same idea. It makes sense when you consider that game is more likely in the Major than the minor.

[Fred.]

Post by Player

Post by Fred.
If the major is spades I open the minor, otherwise I open hearts, less from
fear of a spade response than preemptive defensive bidding in spades. If
you consider playing strength then as little as Axxxx-x-AJxxxx-x is a full
king above a minimum opening and worthy of a light reverse. Excusing the
jack wouldn't make it much of a shade.
As for your convention, why not play the reverse after the 1NT response
as non-forcing and use a jump reverse for hands where you wish to force to
the 4-level. This will allow a weak 1-suiter, which comes up much more
often than a weak 5-6, to pull 1NT to 2m.
Fred.

Post by dfm
When you have a minimum opener with a 5-card major and a 6-card minor, which do you open?
If you ever open the minor, what do you think of the following agreement?
After 1m-1NT-2m, responder bids 2H with three hearts and perhaps also three spades, or 2S with three spades and not three hearts. Opener can then pass, correct back to 3m, or bid 2S over 2H (which responder can correct to 3m).
This would allow 5-6 hands to open the minor but still play in 2 of the major when there's a 5-3 fit. It would also create some opportunities to play 4-6 hands in a 4-3 major fit instead of in the minor (which might or might not give good results at matchpoints). It would usually lose when it lands you in 3m, going down.

It is interesting that in some 2/1 based systems such as Polish Club not to open a Major is to deny one. Robinson in Washington Standard has the same idea. It makes sense when you consider that game is more likely in the Major than the minor.

Quite honestly, 5M+6m comes up seldom enough that the only
thing I'm reasonably sure of is that it has lots of playing
strength and needs to bid aggressively. I'm happy to play
whatever partner prefers as long as we discuss the implications
on reverses.

But, always opening the 5-card or longer major has the
clear advantage of simplifying the opening bid rules.

Fred.

[Will in New Haven]

Post by Player

Post by Fred.
If the major is spades I open the minor, otherwise I open hearts, less from
fear of a spade response than preemptive defensive bidding in spades. If
you consider playing strength then as little as Axxxx-x-AJxxxx-x is a full
king above a minimum opening and worthy of a light reverse. Excusing the
jack wouldn't make it much of a shade.
As for your convention, why not play the reverse after the 1NT response
as non-forcing and use a jump reverse for hands where you wish to force to
the 4-level. This will allow a weak 1-suiter, which comes up much more
often than a weak 5-6, to pull 1NT to 2m.
Fred.

Post by dfm
When you have a minimum opener with a 5-card major and a 6-card minor, which do you open?
If you ever open the minor, what do you think of the following agreement?
After 1m-1NT-2m, responder bids 2H with three hearts and perhaps also three spades, or 2S with three spades and not three hearts. Opener can then pass, correct back to 3m, or bid 2S over 2H (which responder can correct to 3m).
This would allow 5-6 hands to open the minor but still play in 2 of the major when there's a 5-3 fit. It would also create some opportunities to play 4-6 hands in a 4-3 major fit instead of in the minor (which might or might not give good results at matchpoints). It would usually lose when it lands you in 3m, going down.

It is interesting that in some 2/1 based systems such as Polish Club not to open a Major is to deny one. Robinson in Washington Standard has the same idea. It makes sense when you consider that game is more likely in the Major than the minor.

As long as the argument isn't "because we open five-card Majors." When 5CM were a new thing everyone knew it was short for "not opening four-card Majors." I played in a club where the rules included "you cannot say that you don't open four-card Majors," among other silly rules.

I always said "everyone opens five-card Majors" until someone told me about a system where you might have six or you might have four. With five, you opened a shorter suit. Canape but very strict.

[KWSchneider]

That's what I predominantly play. No 5cM opening; either the shorter 4card suit with 54 2suiters, or 1D with 5M332.
So 1M always shows a hand with an available rebid (either longer 2nd suit) or 6cM.

But since this is in conjunction with a strong club where we are limited in HCP, a reverse from 1D into the 'longer' major would show this hand with 5M6D. With clubs, a 2N rebid (after 2C opening) shows multiple unique shapes/sizes, of which 5M6C would be one.

[Will in New Haven]

Post by KWSchneider
That's what I predominantly play. No 5cM opening; either the shorter 4card suit with 54 2suiters, or 1D with 5M332.
So 1M always shows a hand with an available rebid (either longer 2nd suit) or 6cM.
But since this is in conjunction with a strong club where we are limited in HCP, a reverse from 1D into the 'longer' major would show this hand with 5M6D. With clubs, a 2N rebid (after 2C opening) shows multiple unique shapes/sizes, of which 5M6C would be one.

The strong Club, of course, limits your choice of shorter suits but, yes, that is very much like the system my friend described when I said "everybody opens five-card Majors." She said it was Dutch Acol but I have seen that name on a system that did not resemble what she described.

[Brian]

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 10:20:06 -0800 (PST), Will in New Haven

Post by Will in New Haven

Post by KWSchneider
That's what I predominantly play. No 5cM opening; either the shorter 4card suit with 54 2suiters, or 1D with 5M332.
So 1M always shows a hand with an available rebid (either longer 2nd suit) or 6cM.
But since this is in conjunction with a strong club where we are limited in HCP, a reverse from 1D into the 'longer' major would show this hand with 5M6D. With clubs, a 2N rebid (after 2C opening) shows multiple unique shapes/sizes, of which 5M6C would be one.

The strong Club, of course, limits your choice of shorter suits but, yes, that is very much like the system my friend described when I said "everybody opens five-card Majors." She said it was Dutch Acol but I have seen that name on a system that did not resemble what she described.

If you want a really off-the-wall example there was the TRS system
that (I think) Forrester and Armstrong played in one Bermuda Bowl, 1
of a major in that was 7-10 HCP and either 5+ cards in the suit OR 0-2
cards in the suit.

Brian.

[t***@att.net]

An advantage of camape (which has its problems elsewhere). One opens the shorter of two suits on two-suited hands, if the hand is strong enough to bid two suits. With a 5-card major and 6-card minor, the major is favored; with a 6-card major and a 5-card minor, the major is favored.

[Player]

Post by t***@att.net
An advantage of camape (which has its problems elsewhere). One opens the shorter of two suits on two-suited hands, if the hand is strong enough to bid two suits. With a 5-card major and 6-card minor, the major is favored; with a 6-card major and a 5-card minor, the major is favored.

Opening a 5 card M ahead of a 6 card minor can hardly be called canape.

[t***@att.net]

Post by Player

Post by t***@att.net
An advantage of camape (which has its problems elsewhere). One opens the shorter of two suits on two-suited hands, if the hand is strong enough to bid two suits. With a 5-card major and 6-card minor, the major is favored; with a 6-card major and a 5-card minor, the major is favored.

Opening a 5 card M ahead of a 6 card minor can hardly be called canape.

It certainly isn't la longue d'abord though

[Dave Flower]

Post by t***@att.net

Post by Player

Post by t***@att.net
An advantage of camape (which has its problems elsewhere). One opens the shorter of two suits on two-suited hands, if the hand is strong enough to bid two suits. With a 5-card major and 6-card minor, the major is favored; with a 6-card major and a 5-card minor, the major is favored.

Opening a 5 card M ahead of a 6 card minor can hardly be called canape.

It certainly isn't la longue d'abord though

I think that considerable attention should be suit quality. Compare:

void
A K Q J 10
A 2
J 7 5 4 3 2

with

Q 6 5 3 2
6
A K Q J 4 3
J

Most players would open 1H on the first and 1D on the second; the question then is what constitutes a marginal hand

Dave Flower

[[e-mail]]

Post by Dave Flower

Post by t***@att.net

Post by Player

Post by t***@att.net
An advantage of camape (which has its problems elsewhere). One opens the shorter of two suits on two-suited hands, if the hand is strong enough to bid two suits. With a 5-card major and 6-card minor, the major is favored; with a 6-card major and a 5-card minor, the major is favored.

Opening a 5 card M ahead of a 6 card minor can hardly be called canape.

It certainly isn't la longue d'abord though

void
A K Q J 10
A 2
J 7 5 4 3 2
with
Q 6 5 3 2
6
A K Q J 4 3
J
Most players would open 1H on the first and 1D on the second; the question then is what constitutes a marginal hand
Dave Flower

I can't bring myself to try to prove it, but I believe that the modal distribution of a hand's hcp is proportional to its suit lengths.

If that is true, then a huge disparity of hcp between a 6 and a 5 is extremely unlikely. So its occurrence will have no measurable effect on any simulation or summarized hand records.

But of course they do occur. And when they do, it's delusional to expect the same tactics to work with Qxxxx AKQJxx as with KQJxx KQJxxx. Even though simulations suggest that only suit lengths and total strength matter.

Carl

[Sandy Barnes]

Post by dfm
When you have a minimum opener with a 5-card major and a 6-card minor, which do you open?
If you ever open the minor, what do you think of the following agreement?
After 1m-1NT-2m, responder bids 2H with three hearts and perhaps also three spades, or 2S with three spades and not three hearts. Opener can then pass, correct back to 3m, or bid 2S over 2H (which responder can correct to 3m).
This would allow 5-6 hands to open the minor but still play in 2 of the major when there's a 5-3 fit. It would also create some opportunities to play 4-6 hands in a 4-3 major fit instead of in the minor (which might or might not give good results at matchpoints). It would usually lose when it lands you in 3m, going down.

This does not come up often, but I use Canape' jump rebids, showing 5-6+ with a longer rebid suit, and a minimum opening hand.