What Does it Cost to hire a Professional

Post by kingsman
Recently, Jimmy Cayne, playing with Michael Seamon and two Italian and
two Polish internationals, won the Yeh Brothers Cup in Australia. If
I were to assume that Mr. Cayne sponsored this team, does anyone have
a ballpark estimate of what this would cost ( in addition to
expenses) ? I am not interested, in this forum, of making any
particular point about Mr. Cayne, but only to find what is the going
rate for the very top flight professionals.
Similarly, what roughly is the cost of Meckwell and Zia-Hamman for a
full national tournament; or a top-flight pair like Hampson-Greco for
all the team games at a regional.
Again, I'm not looking for private information about specific players
or sponsors, but for a general sense of market rates.
Thanks,
Bernard Schneider

There was a program two years ago on the Canadian network CTV about
Gavin Wolpert and Vince Demuy trying to make it as pros. IIRC,
Rose Meltzer said she spent between $50K and $100K per ACBL NABC.

Jim Reineck

smn

2009-04-16 23:52:54 UTC

Do you have any idea why a person -say Meltzer would spend $100K like
that.Is there any return on this investment aside from high priced
entertainment.Is there any financial return in nonspectator sports
like this.A tax deductable business expense? Thanks,smn

Hank Youngerman

2009-04-17 03:18:19 UTC

My understanding is that "run-of-the-mill" national class pros - that
is, a pair that wouldn't surprise you if they won a national event,
but you would not expect to win a Bemuda Bowl - go for about $1000 a
day for national events. That may be more of an "asking price" and
they may sometimes go for less. The comment earlier about "regional
events" refers, I assume, to a 6-day regional, not a single event in a
regional. $4K is probably low for Meckwell.

In 1999 I was told that a Vanderbilt team with 3 pros - one a multiple
Bermuda Bowl winner, one a BB winner, and one not quite of that
stature but close - had gotten $10K each for the Vanderbilt.

So the likelihood is that, except for the very top pros, it's not that
great a living compared with an office job. Assuming of course that
someone with that level of bridge talent could put their skills to
constructive use in business. But playing bridge sure beats working.

As for why someone would hire pros - hey c'mon. Why do people spend
$12,000 on a handbag or $300,000 on a car? It's all about your
personal financial situation and how you choose to spend your money.
I personally once had a partner who was a very very good player, who
would call me occasionally to play in tournaments. I offered to pay
him when we played, just to give him the incentive to call me rather
than someone else, because I hated having to call around for partners
and teammates. It was worth it to me to avoid the hassle. (He was a
good enough player that anyone in the area would play with him and an
empty chair - he never had to make more than two calls to get a team,
and usually just one.) And keep in mind that no matter how good you
are, if you want to compete at the top levels, if you don't pay,
someone else will. Ron Rubin and Barry Crane are good examples of
"clients" who paid their partners/teammates, but were often better
than the people they played with.

As I remind one of my partners constantly, they don't engrave your
bank balance OR your masterpoint total on your tombstone. But nobody
can take that Bermuda Bowl title away from Rose, can they?

Eric Leong

2009-04-18 12:45:22 UTC

My understanding is that "run-of-the-mill" national class pros - that
is, a pair that wouldn't surprise you if they won a national event,
but you would not expect to win a Bemuda Bowl - go for about $1000 a
day for national events. That may be more of an "asking price" and
they may sometimes go for less. The comment earlier about "regional
events" refers, I assume, to a 6-day regional, not a single event in a
regional. $4K is probably low for Meckwell.
In 1999 I was told that a Vanderbilt team with 3 pros - one a multiple
Bermuda Bowl winner, one a BB winner, and one not quite of that
stature but close - had gotten $10K each for the Vanderbilt.
So the likelihood is that, except for the very top pros, it's not that
great a living compared with an office job. Assuming of course that
someone with that level of bridge talent could put their skills to
constructive use in business. But playing bridge sure beats working.
As for why someone would hire pros - hey c'mon. Why do people spend
$12,000 on a handbag or $300,000 on a car? It's all about your
personal financial situation and how you choose to spend your money.
I personally once had a partner who was a very very good player, who
would call me occasionally to play in tournaments. I offered to pay
him when we played, just to give him the incentive to call me rather
than someone else, because I hated having to call around for partners
and teammates. It was worth it to me to avoid the hassle. (He was a
good enough player that anyone in the area would play with him and an
empty chair - he never had to make more than two calls to get a team,
and usually just one.) And keep in mind that no matter how good you
are, if you want to compete at the top levels, if you don't pay,
someone else will. Ron Rubin and Barry Crane are good examples of
"clients" who paid their partners/teammates, but were often better
than the people they played with.
As I remind one of my partners constantly, they don't engrave your
bank balance OR your masterpoint total on your tombstone. But nobody
can take that Bermuda Bowl title away from Rose, can they?

A "pro" is anyone that is any bridge player who is willing to be paid
to play with someone else.
What you pay for and what you get is often a different question. There
are a number of "pros" out there where their promotional ability
vastly exceeds their bridge ability. Further, the quote you get is
will usually be for new clients. Older clients will usually paying a
little less. But all "pros" will constantly figure out how I can
charge more in the future to different existing clients without
rocking the boat.

In one sense what you pay a "pro" is more a work of art then a set
price. The pro will think along the lines of "X is a pro and he gets
around Y dollars. I am just as good a player if not far better so
therefore I should charge Z dollars more" But if he sets a price too
high he may not be able to fill up his schedule so with different
clients he may and probably will cut different deals.

Also, what you pay is often what the "pro" perceives what you will pay
and the other alternative "pros" you play with. So often a "pro"
especially a full time pro might have a variety of different
arrangements with different partners.

Another factor is your ability as a player. The better you are, all
else being equal, the more the "pro" will prefer to play with you. It
probably can be mind numbing if you only play with very weak clients
for long constant periods of the year.

If you want to hire a "pro" you should ask say 10-20 other "pros" what
they charge and see how they compare. So now you get a sense of what
the market is like out there and you can make an intelligent choice.
Alternatively, you can just say to a "pro" who is calling trying to
book you months ahead for an upcoming tournament "I would love to play
with you but I can play with X a roughly equivalent player for less."
and leave it up to him.

Eric Leong

Stu G

2009-04-20 03:02:09 UTC

My understanding is that "run-of-the-mill" national class pros - that
is, a pair that wouldn't surprise you if they won a national event,
but you would not expect to win a Bemuda Bowl - go for about $1000 a
day for national events. That may be more of an "asking price" and
they may sometimes go for less. The comment earlier about "regional
events" refers, I assume, to a 6-day regional, not a single event in a
regional. $4K is probably low for Meckwell.
In 1999 I was told that a Vanderbilt team with 3 pros - one a multiple
Bermuda Bowl winner, one a BB winner, and one not quite of that
stature but close - had gotten $10K each for the Vanderbilt.
So the likelihood is that, except for the very top pros, it's not that
great a living compared with an office job. Assuming of course that
someone with that level of bridge talent could put their skills to
constructive use in business. But playing bridge sure beats working.
As for why someone would hire pros - hey c'mon. Why do people spend
$12,000 on a handbag or $300,000 on a car? It's all about your
personal financial situation and how you choose to spend your money.
I personally once had a partner who was a very very good player, who
would call me occasionally to play in tournaments. I offered to pay
him when we played, just to give him the incentive to call me rather
than someone else, because I hated having to call around for partners
and teammates. It was worth it to me to avoid the hassle. (He was a
good enough player that anyone in the area would play with him and an
empty chair - he never had to make more than two calls to get a team,
and usually just one.) And keep in mind that no matter how good you
are, if you want to compete at the top levels, if you don't pay,
someone else will. Ron Rubin and Barry Crane are good examples of
"clients" who paid their partners/teammates, but were often better
than the people they played with.
As I remind one of my partners constantly, they don't engrave your
bank balance OR your masterpoint total on your tombstone. But nobody
can take that Bermuda Bowl title away from Rose, can they?

A "pro" is anyone that is any bridge player who is willing to be paid
to play with someone else.
What you pay for and what you get is often a different question. There
are a number of "pros" out there where their promotional ability
vastly exceeds their bridge ability. Further, the quote you get is
will usually be for new clients. Older clients will usually paying a
little less. But all "pros" will constantly figure out how I can
charge more in the future to different existing clients without
rocking the boat.
In one sense what you pay a "pro" is more a work of art then a set
price. The pro will think along the lines of "X is a pro and he gets
around Y dollars. I am just as good a player if not far better so
therefore I should charge Z dollars more" But if he sets a price too
high he may not be able to fill up his schedule so with different
clients he may and probably will cut different deals.
Also, what you pay is often what the "pro" perceives what you will pay
and the other alternative "pros" you play with. So often a "pro"
especially a full time pro might have a variety of different
arrangements with different partners.
Another factor is your ability as a player. The better you are, all
else being equal, the more the "pro" will prefer to play with you. It
probably can be mind numbing if you only play with very weak clients
for long constant periods of the year.

Some years ago I was playing in a sectional event against Mike
Lawrence and weak client, who might have been having a particularly
bad day. After botching one hand and then the other, the client said
"It's just not my day; maybe I should just quit and go home." Mike
Lawrence said nothing but sat there with an expression between boredom
and disgust and quietly nodded his head up and down.

Post by Eric Leong
If you want to hire a "pro" you should ask say 10-20 other "pros" what
they charge and see how they compare. So now you get a sense of what
the market is like out there and you can make an intelligent choice.
Alternatively, you can just say to a "pro" who is calling trying to
book you months ahead for an upcoming tournament "I would love to play
with you but I can play with X a roughly equivalent player for less."
and leave it up to him.

Eric, I was looking forward to your reply to this thread but expected
concrete examples along with the general explanation you profferred.

-Stu Goodgold
San Jose, CA

Post by Eric Leong
Eric Leong- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Eric Leong

2009-04-20 03:28:43 UTC

Post by Stu G

My understanding is that "run-of-the-mill" national class pros - that
is, a pair that wouldn't surprise you if they won a national event,
but you would not expect to win a Bemuda Bowl - go for about $1000 a
day for national events. That may be more of an "asking price" and
they may sometimes go for less. The comment earlier about "regional
events" refers, I assume, to a 6-day regional, not a single event in a
regional. $4K is probably low for Meckwell.
In 1999 I was told that a Vanderbilt team with 3 pros - one a multiple
Bermuda Bowl winner, one a BB winner, and one not quite of that
stature but close - had gotten $10K each for the Vanderbilt.
So the likelihood is that, except for the very top pros, it's not that
great a living compared with an office job. Assuming of course that
someone with that level of bridge talent could put their skills to
constructive use in business. But playing bridge sure beats working.
As for why someone would hire pros - hey c'mon. Why do people spend
$12,000 on a handbag or $300,000 on a car? It's all about your
personal financial situation and how you choose to spend your money.
I personally once had a partner who was a very very good player, who
would call me occasionally to play in tournaments. I offered to pay
him when we played, just to give him the incentive to call me rather
than someone else, because I hated having to call around for partners
and teammates. It was worth it to me to avoid the hassle. (He was a
good enough player that anyone in the area would play with him and an
empty chair - he never had to make more than two calls to get a team,
and usually just one.) And keep in mind that no matter how good you
are, if you want to compete at the top levels, if you don't pay,
someone else will. Ron Rubin and Barry Crane are good examples of
"clients" who paid their partners/teammates, but were often better
than the people they played with.
As I remind one of my partners constantly, they don't engrave your
bank balance OR your masterpoint total on your tombstone. But nobody
can take that Bermuda Bowl title away from Rose, can they?

A "pro" is anyone that is any bridge player who is willing to be paid
to play with someone else.
What you pay for and what you get is often a different question. There
are a number of "pros" out there where their promotional ability
vastly exceeds their bridge ability. Further, the quote you get is
will usually be for new clients. Older clients will usually paying a
little less. But all "pros" will constantly figure out how I can
charge more in the future to different existing clients without
rocking the boat.
In one sense what you pay a "pro" is more a work of art then a set
price. The pro will think along the lines of "X is a pro and he gets
around Y dollars. I am just as good a player if not far better so
therefore I should charge Z dollars more" But if he sets a price too
high he may not be able to fill up his schedule so with different
clients he may and probably will cut different deals.
Also, what you pay is often what the "pro" perceives what you will pay
and the other alternative "pros" you play with. So often a "pro"
especially a full time pro might have a variety of different
arrangements with different partners.
Another factor is your ability as a player. The better you are, all
else being equal, the more the "pro" will prefer to play with you. It
probably can be mind numbing if you only play with very weak clients
for long constant periods of the year.

Eric, I was looking forward to your reply to this thread but expected
concrete examples along with the general explanation you profferred.
-Stu Goodgold
San Jose, CA

I see no advantage at giving very specific examples and I can see
disadvantages.

Eric Leong

Post by Stu G

Post by Eric Leong
Eric Leong- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

jblubaugh

2009-04-16 17:43:41 UTC

Hampson and Greco would be about $3000 each for a Regional Event.
Meckwell used to be $4000 each for regional events but that is
probably higher now. The nationals used to be $25000 each for the top
names and that is probably higher now.

JB

Michael Angelo Ravera

2009-04-16 20:15:42 UTC

Post by jblubaugh

In my area, at regionals, you can often get third-flight local pros
(of whom I know many) for entry fees plus a beer. Second flighters (of
whom I know several) are about $300-500 per day (plus expenses, if
they are from out of town). Top flighers (of whom I know a couple) are
more like a couple grand per day (One 5-pro team could be bought for
$40K for the week, but I suspect that this was a premium [or
overstated] price and included some of the expenses). I don't know
about world-class players. My hunch is that they go for only a little
more than the top-flighers at regionals, but go much higher at
nationals. Your point and prestiege expectation for having Meckwell or
Stansby and Weichsel on your team at a regional isn't that much
greater than having your local top-flighers (Dickman and Nemiro, or
Simpson, for instance, in my area).

At nationals, however, it is different. If you win a national event,
you get at least 150 masterpoints, some qualifying exemptions, and you
are on your way to Grand Life Master, if you can only achieve the
required point total. Some people are willing to pay dearly for that.

stefan f.

2009-04-17 08:38:30 UTC

Hallo Bernard,

Post by kingsman
Again, I'm not looking for private information about
specific players or sponsors, but for a general sense of
market rates.

TBW January 2009
Las Wages, by Larry Cohen

(it is about the 2008 Spingold teams in Las Vegas)

.... By my count, 30 Americans were paying their teammates
(and 22 of the employers had hired foreign experts). The
actual count is probably higher, because it isn't always
obvious, even to an insider, who is paying whom. How much
money is involved? A top american star now commands six
figures a year for the three nationals and the Team Trial.

Stacy Jacobs wrote some interesting stuff in her blog
http://stacyjacobs.com/category/bridge/clients/

ciao stefan
germany

Bill

2009-04-20 01:20:44 UTC

William Cohan describes the Bear Stearns meltdown in a recently
published book, House of Cards: A Tale of Hubris and Wretched Excess
on Wall Street.

In this book, there is a paragraph stating that Mr. Cayne pays
$500,000 per year [for three weeks of service] for the four Italian
professional that play with him in the three ACBL NABC's. I presume
any world tournaments with the Italians would have similar financial
arrangements.

By the way, the book is fascinating, describing the world wide
financial meltdown within the microcosm of Bear Stearns.

Bill Gottschall

Post by kingsman
Recently, Jimmy Cayne, playing with Michael Seamon and two Italian and
two Polish internationals, won the Yeh Brothers Cup in Australia. If
I were to assume that Mr. Cayne sponsored this team, does anyone have
a ballpark estimate of what this would cost ( in addition to
expenses) ? I am not interested, in this forum, of making any
particular point about Mr. Cayne, but only to find what is the going
rate for the very top flight professionals.
Similarly, what roughly is the cost ofMeckwelland Zia-Hamman for a
full national tournament; or a top-flight pair like Hampson-Greco for
all the team games at a regional.
Again, I'm not looking for private information about specific players
or sponsors, but for a general sense of market rates.
Thanks,
Bernard Schneider

Hank Youngerman

2009-04-20 03:13:22 UTC

Post by Bill
William Cohan describes the Bear Stearns meltdown in a recently
published book, House of Cards: A Tale of Hubris and Wretched Excess
on Wall Street.
In this book, there is a paragraph stating that Mr. Cayne pays
$500,000 per year [for three weeks of service] for the four Italian
professional that play with him in the three ACBL NABC's. I presume
any world tournaments with the Italians would have similar financial
arrangements.
By the way, the book is fascinating, describing the world wide
financial meltdown within the microcosm of Bear Stearns.
Bill Gottschall

Post by kingsman
Recently, Jimmy Cayne, playing with Michael Seamon and two Italian and
two Polish internationals, won the Yeh Brothers Cup in Australia. If
I were to assume that Mr. Cayne sponsored this team, does anyone have
a ballpark estimate of what this would cost ( in addition to
expenses) ? I am not interested, in this forum, of making any
particular point about Mr. Cayne, but only to find what is the going
rate for the very top flight professionals.
Similarly, what roughly is the cost ofMeckwelland Zia-Hamman for a
full national tournament; or a top-flight pair like Hampson-Greco for
all the team games at a regional.
Again, I'm not looking for private information about specific players
or sponsors, but for a general sense of market rates.
Thanks,
Bernard Schneider- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Considering that the Italians are the one team in the world comparable
to Nickell, and other posts in this thread, that sounds reasonable.

What I've always found interesting is (a) that more sponsors haven't
held together a strong team over a period of time and (b) the rates
aren't even higher for the very top players. Two years ago, Cayne was
on the Forbes 400 with a net worth over $1 billion. In other words,
if his assets had been invested in a money market fund at then-current
rates, he'd have had a (pretax) income of $1 million a week. I have
no way to know the net worth of any of the top sponsors unless they
are on the Forbes 400, and I couldn't find any. (Cayne of course is
no longer on the list.) I thought Peter Lynch (of Fidelity fame,
Carolyn's husband) would be on the list, but doesn't seem to be,

But if I had that kind of money, I think I'd be looking literally for
the "best money can buy." I'd have thought there would be a small
number of very wealthy clients who would bid up the prices. But
perhaps another controlling factor is the caliber of the client.
Cayne and Nickell are both experts in their own rights, both have won
3-day national pair games. How much more would a world-class pair ask
to play on a team that has little or no chance to win?

boblipton

2009-04-20 11:29:53 UTC

Post by kingsman
Recently, Jimmy Cayne, playing with Michael Seamon and two Italian and
two Polish internationals, won the Yeh Brothers Cup in Australia. If
I were to assume that Mr. Cayne sponsored this team, does anyone have
a ballpark estimate of what this would cost ( in addition to
expenses) ? I am not interested, in this forum, of making any
particular point about Mr. Cayne, but only to find what is the going
rate for the very top flight professionals.
Similarly, what roughly is the cost ofMeckwelland Zia-Hamman for a
full national tournament; or a top-flight pair like Hampson-Greco for
all the team games at a regional.
Again, I'm not looking for private information about specific players
or sponsors, but for a general sense of market rates.
Thanks,
Bernard Schneider- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Considering that the Italians are the one team in the world comparable
to Nickell, and other posts in this thread, that sounds reasonable.
What I've always found interesting is (a) that more sponsors haven't
held together a strong team over a period of time and (b) the rates
aren't even higher for the very top players. Two years ago, Cayne was
on the Forbes 400 with a net worth over $1 billion. In other words,
if his assets had been invested in a money market fund at then-current
rates, he'd have had a (pretax) income of $1 million a week. I have
no way to know the net worth of any of the top sponsors unless they
are on the Forbes 400, and I couldn't find any. (Cayne of course is
no longer on the list.) I thought Peter Lynch (of Fidelity fame,
Carolyn's husband) would be on the list, but doesn't seem to be,
But if I had that kind of money, I think I'd be looking literally for
the "best money can buy." I'd have thought there would be a small
number of very wealthy clients who would bid up the prices. But
perhaps another controlling factor is the caliber of the client.
Cayne and Nickell are both experts in their own rights, both have won
3-day national pair games. How much more would a world-class pair ask
to play on a team that has little or no chance to win?

Well, yes, but the Italians are definitely in that group and if you
can buy something for, say, $100,000, why would you insist on paying
twice that amount?

Bob

Hank Youngerman

2009-04-20 14:39:16 UTC

Post by kingsman
Recently, Jimmy Cayne, playing with Michael Seamon and two Italian and
two Polish internationals, won the Yeh Brothers Cup in Australia. If
I were to assume that Mr. Cayne sponsored this team, does anyone have
a ballpark estimate of what this would cost ( in addition to
expenses) ? I am not interested, in this forum, of making any
particular point about Mr. Cayne, but only to find what is the going
rate for the very top flight professionals.
Similarly, what roughly is the cost ofMeckwelland Zia-Hamman for a
full national tournament; or a top-flight pair like Hampson-Greco for
all the team games at a regional.
Again, I'm not looking for private information about specific players
or sponsors, but for a general sense of market rates.
Thanks,
Bernard Schneider- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Considering that the Italians are the one team in the world comparable
to Nickell, and other posts in this thread, that sounds reasonable.
What I've always found interesting is (a) that more sponsors haven't
held together a strong team over a period of time and (b) the rates
aren't even higher for the very top players. Two years ago, Cayne was
on the Forbes 400 with a net worth over $1 billion. In other words,
if his assets had been invested in a money market fund at then-current
rates, he'd have had a (pretax) income of $1 million a week. I have
no way to know the net worth of any of the top sponsors unless they
are on the Forbes 400, and I couldn't find any. (Cayne of course is
no longer on the list.) I thought Peter Lynch (of Fidelity fame,
Carolyn's husband) would be on the list, but doesn't seem to be,
But if I had that kind of money, I think I'd be looking literally for
the "best money can buy." I'd have thought there would be a small
number of very wealthy clients who would bid up the prices. But
perhaps another controlling factor is the caliber of the client.
Cayne and Nickell are both experts in their own rights, both have won
3-day national pair games. How much more would a world-class pair ask
to play on a team that has little or no chance to win?

Well, yes, but the Italians are definitely in that group and if you
can buy something for, say, $100,000, why would you insist on paying
twice that amount?
Bob- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Obviously you would not pay more than you have to. You might well
throw in some perks, to keep the team well-disposed toward you and
keep team spirit up (a la Mark Cuban's attitude toward the Dallas
Mavericks) but I agree you won't say "Oh, you only want $100,000. No,
let's make it $150,000."

But I've often observed that they don't engrave your bank balance on
your tombstone. There are many examples of billionaires spending huge
sums on exotic pleasures. Each year I go to an investment conference
in New York, where the sponsor of the conference (a Fortune 400
billionaire) spends huge sums just on entertainment. The conference
is free as long as you have $2000 invested in one of his funds. Last
year, if you attended the conference, you got to see Faith Hill - for
free. Oh wait. That was just one of four entertainers at LUNCH. The
headline attraction was Rod Stewart (*), in the past it's been Bette
Midler, Elton John, Billy Joel, Jerry Seinfeld, etc. My understanding
is that the going rate for private shows by this class of entertainer
is in the $2 million plus range. And he pays this out of his own
pocket, not out of the fund management company. He does it just for
the buzz, the ego, the thrill of thowing a party everyone wants to
come to. And this isn't even the top of the line; Steve Scharwtzman
hired the Rolling Stones ($7 million) to play his 60th birthday party.

I have no idea how much the top sponsors are worth, but I'd think
there would be at least a few of them who would engage in a "nuclear
arms race" to get the top talent, and bid up the prices. Maybe the
effect of a weak sponsor is greater than I thought, and the motivation
to win is such that players like Hamway, Meckwell, and the Italians,
won't just play with the highest bidder. After all, Elton John isn't
being asked to perform with the billionaire fund conference sponsor
playing drums!

(*) disclosure, last year Rod Stewart didn't show up. He was taken
ill and they had to find a last-minute replacement, which happened to
be Jerry Seinfeld, since he was located in New York and was
available. The conference keeps the identity of the performers a deep
dark secret; the programs only say "Surprise Entertainment." Starting
when the conference opens at 8AM, the main topic of conversation is
not the exciting speeches we're going to hear (zzzzzz!) but who the
entertainers will be. I can only guess what he's offered Bruce
Springsteen, so far unsuccessfully.

Eric Leong

2009-04-20 15:11:50 UTC

Post by kingsman
Recently, Jimmy Cayne, playing with Michael Seamon and two Italian and
two Polish internationals, won the Yeh Brothers Cup in Australia. If
I were to assume that Mr. Cayne sponsored this team, does anyone have
a ballpark estimate of what this would cost ( in addition to
expenses) ? I am not interested, in this forum, of making any
particular point about Mr. Cayne, but only to find what is the going
rate for the very top flight professionals.
Similarly, what roughly is the cost ofMeckwelland Zia-Hamman for a
full national tournament; or a top-flight pair like Hampson-Greco for
all the team games at a regional.
Again, I'm not looking for private information about specific players
or sponsors, but for a general sense of market rates.
Thanks,
Bernard Schneider- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Considering that the Italians are the one team in the world comparable
to Nickell, and other posts in this thread, that sounds reasonable.
What I've always found interesting is (a) that more sponsors haven't
held together a strong team over a period of time and (b) the rates
aren't even higher for the very top players. Two years ago, Cayne was
on the Forbes 400 with a net worth over $1 billion. In other words,
if his assets had been invested in a money market fund at then-current
rates, he'd have had a (pretax) income of $1 million a week. I have
no way to know the net worth of any of the top sponsors unless they
are on the Forbes 400, and I couldn't find any. (Cayne of course is
no longer on the list.) I thought Peter Lynch (of Fidelity fame,
Carolyn's husband) would be on the list, but doesn't seem to be,
But if I had that kind of money, I think I'd be looking literally for
the "best money can buy." I'd have thought there would be a small
number of very wealthy clients who would bid up the prices. But
perhaps another controlling factor is the caliber of the client.
Cayne and Nickell are both experts in their own rights, both have won
3-day national pair games. How much more would a world-class pair ask
to play on a team that has little or no chance to win?

You seem to fixate on the top of the top tier. The reality is there
are a number of experienced national and international professional
players hungry to fill out a full schedule for considerably less and
who have won national and world championships.. Let's just say I don't
initiate many phone calls or emails but I get more than a number of
phone calls/emails months in advance from pro's to play in certain
national and regional tournaments. I don't haggle on price. I just
know what is out there at what price and I tell them what my
alternatives are if pressed. I might just tell someone along the lines
of if you can get the price you quote I don't want to stand in your
way but if your schedule is still empty close to the start of the
tournament and you would rather have a full schedule rather than a
half empty schedule than you can contact me again.

Eric Leong

Hank Youngerman

2009-04-20 17:04:35 UTC

Post by kingsman
Recently, Jimmy Cayne, playing with Michael Seamon and two Italian and
two Polish internationals, won the Yeh Brothers Cup in Australia. If
I were to assume that Mr. Cayne sponsored this team, does anyone have
a ballpark estimate of what this would cost ( in addition to
expenses) ? I am not interested, in this forum, of making any
particular point about Mr. Cayne, but only to find what is the going
rate for the very top flight professionals.
Similarly, what roughly is the cost ofMeckwelland Zia-Hamman for a
full national tournament; or a top-flight pair like Hampson-Greco for
all the team games at a regional.
Again, I'm not looking for private information about specific players
or sponsors, but for a general sense of market rates.
Thanks,
Bernard Schneider- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Considering that the Italians are the one team in the world comparable
to Nickell, and other posts in this thread, that sounds reasonable.
What I've always found interesting is (a) that more sponsors haven't
held together a strong team over a period of time and (b) the rates
aren't even higher for the very top players. Two years ago, Cayne was
on the Forbes 400 with a net worth over $1 billion. In other words,
if his assets had been invested in a money market fund at then-current
rates, he'd have had a (pretax) income of $1 million a week. I have
no way to know the net worth of any of the top sponsors unless they
are on the Forbes 400, and I couldn't find any. (Cayne of course is
no longer on the list.) I thought Peter Lynch (of Fidelity fame,
Carolyn's husband) would be on the list, but doesn't seem to be,
But if I had that kind of money, I think I'd be looking literally for
the "best money can buy." I'd have thought there would be a small
number of very wealthy clients who would bid up the prices. But
perhaps another controlling factor is the caliber of the client.
Cayne and Nickell are both experts in their own rights, both have won
3-day national pair games. How much more would a world-class pair ask
to play on a team that has little or no chance to win?

Yes, my comments are oriented toward the top tier. Once you get below
that level, I think that being hired as a bridge pro is more about how
well you market yourself than anything else. Both how you present
yourself to prospective clients and how you care for existing ones.
Obviously, working as a bridge pro is unique in that you are charging
for something many people do for free. No one expects me to do
actuarial consulting work for them as a favor, or to work on a project
with them for free because they are as good an actuary as I am. But
clearly there are players who would expect me to pay to play with
them, those who will play with me for free, and those I would only
play with if getting paid. The only way I would do free actuarial
consulting work for anybody is if it were a small piece of work that I
felt would lead to paying work.

richlp

2009-04-20 20:24:39 UTC

Post by kingsman
Recently, Jimmy Cayne, playing with Michael Seamon and two Italian and
two Polish internationals, won the Yeh Brothers Cup in Australia. If
I were to assume that Mr. Cayne sponsored this team, does anyone have
a ballpark estimate of what this would cost ( in addition to
expenses) ? I am not interested, in this forum, of making any
particular point about Mr. Cayne, but only to find what is the going
rate for the very top flight professionals.
Similarly, what roughly is the cost ofMeckwelland Zia-Hamman for a
full national tournament; or a top-flight pair like Hampson-Greco for
all the team games at a regional.
Again, I'm not looking for private information about specific players
or sponsors, but for a general sense of market rates.
Thanks,
Bernard Schneider- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Considering that the Italians are the one team in the world comparable
to Nickell, and other posts in this thread, that sounds reasonable.
What I've always found interesting is (a) that more sponsors haven't
held together a strong team over a period of time and (b) the rates
aren't even higher for the very top players. Two years ago, Cayne was
on the Forbes 400 with a net worth over $1 billion. In other words,
if his assets had been invested in a money market fund at then-current
rates, he'd have had a (pretax) income of $1 million a week. I have
no way to know the net worth of any of the top sponsors unless they
are on the Forbes 400, and I couldn't find any. (Cayne of course is
no longer on the list.) I thought Peter Lynch (of Fidelity fame,
Carolyn's husband) would be on the list, but doesn't seem to be,
But if I had that kind of money, I think I'd be looking literally for
the "best money can buy." I'd have thought there would be a small
number of very wealthy clients who would bid up the prices. But
perhaps another controlling factor is the caliber of the client.
Cayne and Nickell are both experts in their own rights, both have won
3-day national pair games. How much more would a world-class pair ask
to play on a team that has little or no chance to win?

"Once you get below that level (top-tier), I think that being hired as
a bridge pro is more about how well you market yourself than anything
else. Both how you present yourself to prospective clients and how
you care for existing ones."

Since my motivation for playing with a pro would be to be able to with
and against players my ability level doesn't warrant, when I finally
hire one (please Mega-Millions, please!) I will be willing to pay
significantly more for one who

1. is PLEASANT to play with.
2. respects the client (doesn't talk about me behind my back)
3. is willing to teach
4. can teach to the level of the client.
5. is PLEASANT to play with.

b***@consolidated.net

2009-04-20 21:48:02 UTC

FWIW, I have a partner who claims people are offering him money NOT to
play with them.
--Bob Park

Eric Leong

2009-04-21 03:59:47 UTC

Post by richlp

Post by kingsman
Recently, Jimmy Cayne, playing with Michael Seamon and two Italian and
two Polish internationals, won the Yeh Brothers Cup in Australia. If
I were to assume that Mr. Cayne sponsored this team, does anyone have
a ballpark estimate of what this would cost ( in addition to
expenses) ? I am not interested, in this forum, of making any
particular point about Mr. Cayne, but only to find what is the going
rate for the very top flight professionals.
Similarly, what roughly is the cost ofMeckwelland Zia-Hamman for a
full national tournament; or a top-flight pair like Hampson-Greco for
all the team games at a regional.
Again, I'm not looking for private information about specific players
or sponsors, but for a general sense of market rates.
Thanks,
Bernard Schneider- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Considering that the Italians are the one team in the world comparable
to Nickell, and other posts in this thread, that sounds reasonable.
What I've always found interesting is (a) that more sponsors haven't
held together a strong team over a period of time and (b) the rates
aren't even higher for the very top players. Two years ago, Cayne was
on the Forbes 400 with a net worth over $1 billion. In other words,
if his assets had been invested in a money market fund at then-current
rates, he'd have had a (pretax) income of $1 million a week. I have
no way to know the net worth of any of the top sponsors unless they
are on the Forbes 400, and I couldn't find any. (Cayne of course is
no longer on the list.) I thought Peter Lynch (of Fidelity fame,
Carolyn's husband) would be on the list, but doesn't seem to be,
But if I had that kind of money, I think I'd be looking literally for
the "best money can buy." I'd have thought there would be a small
number of very wealthy clients who would bid up the prices. But
perhaps another controlling factor is the caliber of the client.
Cayne and Nickell are both experts in their own rights, both have won
3-day national pair games. How much more would a world-class pair ask
to play on a team that has little or no chance to win?

"Once you get below that level (top-tier), I think that being hired as
a bridge pro is more about how well you market yourself than anything
else. Both how you present yourself to prospective clients and how
you care for existing ones."
Since my motivation for playing with a pro would be to be able to with
and against players my ability level doesn't warrant, when I finally
hire one (please Mega-Millions, please!) I will be willing to pay
significantly more for one who
1. is PLEASANT to play with.
2. respects the client (doesn't talk about me behind my back)
3. is willing to teach
4. can teach to the level of the client.
5. is PLEASANT to play with.

Actually, the level of pros can be split up into several layers other
than the obvious highest tier.

Eric Leong

kingsman

2009-04-21 17:28:50 UTC