Bid 3S (5 to the 8) or raise to 4D (6 to the AQJ)?

[nrford100]

I had 87543-9-AQJ653-2, MPs, red-against-white.

Pard opened 1D, RHO bid 3H.

I don't consider Dbl a choice because it would be Negative.

[ais523]

Post by nrford100
I had 87543-9-AQJ653-2, MPs, red-against-white.
Pard opened 1D, RHO bid 3H.
I don't consider Dbl a choice because it would be Negative.

How short can the 1D be? For example, if partner is playing Acol (thus
1D promises four), I'm raising to 5D (especially if the 1D bid also
denies four spades, although it wouldn't in most versions of Acol).

The only time I'd bid spades here is in a system where it's possible
that the diamonds aren't a real suit (such as Precision); even then,
I'd consider passing (was partner dealer, or were there earlier
passes?). If 4S is really our best contract with those spots, then no
game will make; and I can't see the opponents stopping below 4H unless
partner unexpectedly has length there (in which case, there's no way
partner has spades).

Exception: if 4S is a paradox bid ("pass if you have spades, pull if
you don't"), it'd fit this hand pretty well, but that's not a common
treatment as far as I know (I like it for 4-level bids following
intervention, but typically not if they're also jumps).

Incidentally, a negative double isn't terrible here if you're playing
"focused on the majors" rather than "focused on both suits" (both
treatments are common); it'd help to find a potential spade fit, and
partner would know that you wouldn't necessarily have clubs (they'd
still bid clubs if they had them but would then respect a pull to
diamonds, which is of course where you want to be if partner doesn't
have spades). Obviously, you can't play a negative double if it promises
clubs.

[Travis Crump]

Post by ais523

Post by nrford100
I had 87543-9-AQJ653-2, MPs, red-against-white.
Pard opened 1D, RHO bid 3H.
I don't consider Dbl a choice because it would be Negative.

How short can the 1D be? For example, if partner is playing Acol (thus
1D promises four), I'm raising to 5D (especially if the 1D bid also
denies four spades, although it wouldn't in most versions of Acol).
The only time I'd bid spades here is in a system where it's possible
that the diamonds aren't a real suit (such as Precision); even then,
I'd consider passing (was partner dealer, or were there earlier
passes?). If 4S is really our best contract with those spots, then no
game will make; and I can't see the opponents stopping below 4H unless
partner unexpectedly has length there (in which case, there's no way
partner has spades).
Exception: if 4S is a paradox bid ("pass if you have spades, pull if
you don't"), it'd fit this hand pretty well, but that's not a common
treatment as far as I know (I like it for 4-level bids following
intervention, but typically not if they're also jumps).
Incidentally, a negative double isn't terrible here if you're playing
"focused on the majors" rather than "focused on both suits" (both
treatments are common); it'd help to find a potential spade fit, and
partner would know that you wouldn't necessarily have clubs (they'd
still bid clubs if they had them but would then respect a pull to
diamonds, which is of course where you want to be if partner doesn't
have spades). Obviously, you can't play a negative double if it promises
clubs.

The main danger of a negative double is that partner leaves it in with
something like Ax AJ9x Kxxxx Jx.

[nrford100]

Post by ais523

Post by nrford100
I had 87543-9-AQJ653-2, MPs, red-against-white.
Pard opened 1D, RHO bid 3H.
I don't consider Dbl a choice because it would be Negative.

How short can the 1D be? For example, if partner is playing Acol (thus
1D promises four), I'm raising to 5D (especially if the 1D bid also
denies four spades, although it wouldn't in most versions of Acol).
The only time I'd bid spades here is in a system where it's possible
that the diamonds aren't a real suit (such as Precision); even then,
I'd consider passing (was partner dealer, or were there earlier
passes?). If 4S is really our best contract with those spots, then no
game will make; and I can't see the opponents stopping below 4H unless
partner unexpectedly has length there (in which case, there's no way
partner has spades).
Exception: if 4S is a paradox bid ("pass if you have spades, pull if
you don't"), it'd fit this hand pretty well, but that's not a common
treatment as far as I know (I like it for 4-level bids following
intervention, but typically not if they're also jumps).
Incidentally, a negative double isn't terrible here if you're playing
"focused on the majors" rather than "focused on both suits" (both
treatments are common); it'd help to find a potential spade fit, and
partner would know that you wouldn't necessarily have clubs (they'd
still bid clubs if they had them but would then respect a pull to
diamonds, which is of course where you want to be if partner doesn't
have spades). Obviously, you can't play a negative double if it promises
clubs.
--
ais523

Normally, 1D would be 4+, though with 4=4=3=2, it could be 3.

NegDbl would focus on the spades, but just 4 of them. With 5+, I would normally just bid them. Even if pard has QJx, I don't know if that is good enough for him to bid them at the 3+ level with me only promising 4, and even if he does, we would only have a Q-high fit when I know we typically have a 10-card fit in diamonds to at least the AQJ.

Even though I can pull clubs to diamonds if pard bids clubs, I don't think he would ever suspect the diamonds I hold.

And as Travis said, NegDbl carries the risk of pard passing for penalties since I've shown a flatter hand with presumably some defense to offer.

I'm beginning to think that with my minimum HCP, I should forget about spades and just bid the known 6-4 (6-3 worst case) fit. But I keep going back and forth...

[Co Wiersma]

Post by nrford100
I had 87543-9-AQJ653-2, MPs, red-against-white.
Pard opened 1D, RHO bid 3H.
I don't consider Dbl a choice because it would be Negative.

I would bid double and yes that be negative promising 4 spades

Co Wiersma

[Ars Ivci]

Post by nrford100
I had 87543-9-AQJ653-2, MPs, red-against-white.
Pard opened 1D, RHO bid 3H.
I don't consider Dbl a choice because it would be Negative.

5D; you can't have everything.

[Fred.]

Post by nrford100
I had 87543-9-AQJ653-2, MPs, red-against-white.
Pard opened 1D, RHO bid 3H.
I don't consider Dbl a choice because it would be Negative.

Assuming 4D is forcing, 5D. This makes it clear that opener
needs all the defensive tricks for a double of a heart contract.
Either 3S or neg-X suggests defensive tricks you lack. If you
make either call you won't know what to do if (I can almost say
"when") opener doubles the opponents.

Fred.

[Co Wiersma]

Post by Fred.

Post by nrford100
I had 87543-9-AQJ653-2, MPs, red-against-white.
Pard opened 1D, RHO bid 3H.
I don't consider Dbl a choice because it would be Negative.

Assuming 4D is forcing, 5D. This makes it clear that opener
needs all the defensive tricks for a double of a heart contract.
Either 3S or neg-X suggests defensive tricks you lack. If you
make either call you won't know what to do if (I can almost say
"when") opener doubles the opponents.
Fred.

hmm, I think I change my vote to 3S because of the off chance partner
will leave in my double

As to when partner doubles , I have an easy 5D bid

Much more problem is when opps bid 4H and partner passes
How would I know if 5D will be enough?

Anyway, pre-emps work

Co Wiersma

[Dave Flower]

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by Fred.

Post by nrford100
I had 87543-9-AQJ653-2, MPs, red-against-white.
Pard opened 1D, RHO bid 3H.
I don't consider Dbl a choice because it would be Negative.

Assuming 4D is forcing, 5D. This makes it clear that opener
needs all the defensive tricks for a double of a heart contract.
Either 3S or neg-X suggests defensive tricks you lack. If you
make either call you won't know what to do if (I can almost say
"when") opener doubles the opponents.
Fred.

hmm, I think I change my vote to 3S because of the off chance partner
will leave in my double
As to when partner doubles , I have an easy 5D bid
Much more problem is when opps bid 4H and partner passes
How would I know if 5D will be enough?
Anyway, pre-emps work
Co Wiersma

.

I think that the risk of the double being left in is small, although real.
This is match-points, and double figures to find a spade fit if we have one - I am prepared to treat my pathetic 5-card suit as a four carder

Dave Flower

[Lorne]

Post by nrford100
I had 87543-9-AQJ653-2, MPs, red-against-white.
Pard opened 1D, RHO bid 3H.
I don't consider Dbl a choice because it would be Negative.

5D, but you should state your system as a 1D bid that is often a weak NT
(as in the USA) is a lot diffent to a 1D bid that promised 15+ points or
a 5+ card suit in an unbalanced hand as it would in the UK for example.