Tricky responders rebid

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

Matchpoints, 5 card majors, 15-17NT.

South
KJ
Q54
J5
KQ8752

Opponents silent throughout.

North South
1D 2C
3C ?

What do you do now, assuming no sophisticated conventions?

[Co Wiersma]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Matchpoints, 5 card majors, 15-17NT.
South
KJ
Q54
J5
KQ8752
Opponents silent throughout.
North South
1D 2C
3C ?
What do you do now, assuming no sophisticated conventions?

Now I bid very sophisticated 3NT

Co Wiersma

[jogs]

Op 2-6-2017 om 19:24

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Matchpoints, 5 card majors, 15-17NT.
South
KJ
Q54
J5
KQ8752
Opponents silent throughout.
North South
1D 2C
3C ?
What do you do now, assuming no sophisticated conventions?

Now I bid very sophisticated 3NT
Co Wiersma

I choose an unsophisticated 3NT.

[John Hall]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Matchpoints, 5 card majors, 15-17NT.
South
KJ
Q54
J5
KQ8752
Opponents silent throughout.
North South
1D 2C
3C ?
What do you do now, assuming no sophisticated conventions?

3NT seems so obvious, that I'm guessing that either you or your partner
bid something different and is looking for support.

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

At the table I bid 3NT, in the absence of anything better I could think of. I went two off as the opponents cashed five hearts and the diamond ace. Partners hand was:

A873
8
KT876
AJT

This was worth a magnificent two out of 12 MPs, as two pairs managed to make 8 tricks in 3NT, one pair stopped in 2D by North, one pair played in 3C by South, and one East went off in 3H.

This hand contributed to another lousy sub 50% evening, playing with one of the best regular players at the club.

Post by John Hall

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Matchpoints, 5 card majors, 15-17NT.
South
KJ
Q54
J5
KQ8752
Opponents silent throughout.
North South
1D 2C
3C ?
What do you do now, assuming no sophisticated conventions?

3NT seems so obvious, that I'm guessing that either you or your partner
bid something different and is looking for support.
--

[p***@infi.net]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
A873
8
KT876
AJT
This was worth a magnificent two out of 12 MPs, as two pairs managed to make 8 tricks in 3NT, one pair stopped in 2D by North, one pair played in 3C by South, and one East went off in 3H.
This hand contributed to another lousy sub 50% evening, playing with one of the best regular players at the club.

Post by John Hall

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Matchpoints, 5 card majors, 15-17NT.
South
KJ
Q54
J5
KQ8752
Opponents silent throughout.
North South
1D 2C
3C ?
What do you do now, assuming no sophisticated conventions?

3NT seems so obvious, that I'm guessing that either you or your partner
bid something different and is looking for support.
--

Qxx will stop hearts about half the time, when either opponent has both A&K of hearts. A spade lead hands you 9 tricks. Diamond and club leads aren't very likely. I see nothing especially wrong with the bidding. I would rebid 2D with opener's hand, and we might stop at 3C, but we'd feel just as bad if 3NT makes. Next board, please!

[Dave Flower]

Post by p***@infi.net

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
A873
8
KT876
AJT
This was worth a magnificent two out of 12 MPs, as two pairs managed to make 8 tricks in 3NT, one pair stopped in 2D by North, one pair played in 3C by South, and one East went off in 3H.
This hand contributed to another lousy sub 50% evening, playing with one of the best regular players at the club.

Post by John Hall

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Matchpoints, 5 card majors, 15-17NT.
South
KJ
Q54
J5
KQ8752
Opponents silent throughout.
North South
1D 2C
3C ?
What do you do now, assuming no sophisticated conventions?

3NT seems so obvious, that I'm guessing that either you or your partner
bid something different and is looking for support.
--

Qxx will stop hearts about half the time, when either opponent has both A&K of hearts. A spade lead hands you 9 tricks. Diamond and club leads aren't very likely. I see nothing especially wrong with the bidding. I would rebid 2D with opener's hand, and we might stop at 3C, but we'd feel just as bad if 3NT makes. Next board, please!

If the opening leader holds HAK, then the defence is likely to start with a top heart, followed by a diamond switch

Dave Flower

[Dave Flower]

I would probably bid 3NT at the table, but a simulation might persuade me to pass

Dave Flower

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Matchpoints, 5 card majors, 15-17NT.
South
KJ
Q54
J5
KQ8752
Opponents silent throughout.
North South
1D 2C
3C ?
What do you do now, assuming no sophisticated conventions?

[Player]

Post by Dave Flower
I would probably bid 3NT at the table, but a simulation might persuade me to pass
Dave Flower

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Matchpoints, 5 card majors, 15-17NT.
South
KJ
Q54
J5
KQ8752
Opponents silent throughout.
North South
1D 2C
3C ?
What do you do now, assuming no sophisticated conventions?

Did you misread the problem. Pass is idiotic. I bid 3NT, though 3S may well be better.

[Dave Flower]

Post by Player

Post by Dave Flower
I would probably bid 3NT at the table, but a simulation might persuade me to pass
Dave Flower

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Matchpoints, 5 card majors, 15-17NT.
South
KJ
Q54
J5
KQ8752
Opponents silent throughout.
North South
1D 2C
3C ?
What do you do now, assuming no sophisticated conventions?

Did you misread the problem. Pass is idiotic. I bid 3NT, though 3S may well be better.

No I did not misread the problem. Note that pass would have scored a top. Did you think 3C was forcing ?

Dave Flower

[Player]

Post by Dave Flower

Post by Player

Post by Dave Flower
I would probably bid 3NT at the table, but a simulation might persuade me to pass
Dave Flower

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Matchpoints, 5 card majors, 15-17NT.
South
KJ
Q54
J5
KQ8752
Opponents silent throughout.
North South
1D 2C
3C ?
What do you do now, assuming no sophisticated conventions?

Did you misread the problem. Pass is idiotic. I bid 3NT, though 3S may well be better.

No I did not misread the problem. Note that pass would have scored a top. Did you think 3C was forcing ?
Dave Flower

Now lets get this right, you have a 12 count with 6C and partner raises C and you don't think you have an excellent shot at 3NT? You are kidding.
Anyway as I stated, passing 3C is only correct because opener misbid. 3C should show extras and 2S as someone suggested above, is certainly a reverse.

You would have looked very foolish if opener had
A8
Kx
KT876x
Axx

[Dave Flower]

Post by Player

Post by Dave Flower

Post by Player

Post by Dave Flower
I would probably bid 3NT at the table, but a simulation might persuade me to pass
Dave Flower

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Matchpoints, 5 card majors, 15-17NT.
South
KJ
Q54
J5
KQ8752
Opponents silent throughout.
North South
1D 2C
3C ?
What do you do now, assuming no sophisticated conventions?

Did you misread the problem. Pass is idiotic. I bid 3NT, though 3S may well be better.

No I did not misread the problem. Note that pass would have scored a top. Did you think 3C was forcing ?
Dave Flower

Now lets get this right, you have a 12 count with 6C and partner raises C and you don't think you have an excellent shot at 3NT? You are kidding.
Anyway as I stated, passing 3C is only correct because opener misbid. 3C should show extras and 2S as someone suggested above, is certainly a reverse.
You would have looked very foolish if opener had
A8
Kx
KT876x
Axx

And I would have looked more foolish if opener had:
A x x
-
A K x x x
J 10 x x x
(But 3NT has no play, so even 3C outscores 3NT)

My point is that the only likely game on the hand is 3NT - and it is far from clear that it makes. That us why I suggested a simulation.

Dave Flower

[Sandy Barnes]

Post by Player

Post by Dave Flower

Post by Player

Post by Dave Flower
I would probably bid 3NT at the table, but a simulation might persuade me to pass
Dave Flower

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Matchpoints, 5 card majors, 15-17NT.
South
KJ
Q54
J5
KQ8752
Opponents silent throughout.
North South
1D 2C
3C ?
What do you do now, assuming no sophisticated conventions?

Did you misread the problem. Pass is idiotic. I bid 3NT, though 3S may well be better.

No I did not misread the problem. Note that pass would have scored a top. Did you think 3C was forcing ?
Dave Flower

Now lets get this right, you have a 12 count with 6C and partner raises C and you don't think you have an excellent shot at 3NT? You are kidding.
Anyway as I stated, passing 3C is only correct because opener misbid. 3C should show extras and 2S as someone suggested above, is certainly a reverse.
You would have looked very foolish if opener had
A8
Kx
KT876x
Axx

Interesting, both have the spade king.

[Tom]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Matchpoints, 5 card majors, 15-17NT.
South
KJ
Q54
J5
KQ8752
Opponents silent throughout.
North South
1D 2C
3C ?
What do you do now, assuming no sophisticated conventions?

Like everyone else, I bid 3N. However, I would have bid 2S rather than
3C with pardner's hand since I do not play 1D-2C denies a 4 card major.
Now you are warned to avoid 3N. You can bid 3C and maybe stop at 4C as
neither one of you has the extra values to go to 5 even after your "game-
forcing" 2C call.

Tom Reid

[Player]

Post by Tom

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Matchpoints, 5 card majors, 15-17NT.
South
KJ
Q54
J5
KQ8752
Opponents silent throughout.
North South
1D 2C
3C ?
What do you do now, assuming no sophisticated conventions?

Like everyone else, I bid 3N. However, I would have bid 2S rather than
3C with pardner's hand since I do not play 1D-2C denies a 4 card major.
Now you are warned to avoid 3N. You can bid 3C and maybe stop at 4C as
neither one of you has the extra values to go to 5 even after your "game-
forcing" 2C call.
Tom Reid

I would have rebid 2D with your partner's hand. 2S is of course a reverse showing 16+ points, and 3C shows extras for me. Playing with a sane partner we would have ended in 4C.

[jogs]

Post by Player

Post by Tom

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Matchpoints, 5 card majors, 15-17NT.
South
KJ
Q54
J5
KQ8752
Opponents silent throughout.
North South
1D 2C
3C ?
What do you do now, assuming no sophisticated conventions?

Like everyone else, I bid 3N. However, I would have bid 2S rather than
3C with pardner's hand since I do not play 1D-2C denies a 4 card major.
Now you are warned to avoid 3N. You can bid 3C and maybe stop at 4C as
neither one of you has the extra values to go to 5 even after your "game-
forcing" 2C call.
Tom Reid

I would have rebid 2D with your partner's hand. 2S is of course a reverse showing 16+ points, and 3C shows extras for me. Playing with a sane partner we would have ended in 4C.

2S is not of course a reverse. It is a matter of style.
Many play 2S just completes the pattern after a 2/1 bid.
Shows no extras.

1D - 2C
2S - 3C

Responder would not rebid NT with only Qxx in hearts.
Now 3C is not forcing.

[Player]

2S is not of course a reverse. It is a matter of style.
Many play 2S just completes the pattern after a 2/1 bid.
Shows no extras.

1D - 2C
2S - 3C

As usual you have no idea Jogs. This is a frequent debate and has been done to death on BW. Most 2/1 players agree that reverses show extra values. I agree that some play it as patterning out however the 2/1 response is still forcing to game.
By the way, even if in your universe 2s would not show extra values, it is still a reverse.

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

We were not playing 2/1 so 2S would have been a reverse showing extra values.

I have since asked one of the top club players about this hand and he suggested my partner should have rebid 2D instead of raising clubs.

It struck me with this hand that as it went, I really had no solid bid, in that whatever I did could go very wrong. It felt like I had been end-played in the auction, something that I can't remember happening before.

Post by jogs

Post by Player

Post by Tom

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Matchpoints, 5 card majors, 15-17NT.
South
KJ
Q54
J5
KQ8752
Opponents silent throughout.
North South
1D 2C
3C ?
What do you do now, assuming no sophisticated conventions?

Like everyone else, I bid 3N. However, I would have bid 2S rather than
3C with pardner's hand since I do not play 1D-2C denies a 4 card major.
Now you are warned to avoid 3N. You can bid 3C and maybe stop at 4C as
neither one of you has the extra values to go to 5 even after your "game-
forcing" 2C call.
Tom Reid

I would have rebid 2D with your partner's hand. 2S is of course a reverse showing 16+ points, and 3C shows extras for me. Playing with a sane partner we would have ended in 4C.

2S is not of course a reverse. It is a matter of style.
Many play 2S just completes the pattern after a 2/1 bid.
Shows no extras.
1D - 2C
2S - 3C
Responder would not rebid NT with only Qxx in hearts.
Now 3C is not forcing.

[Co Wiersma]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
We were not playing 2/1 so 2S would have been a reverse showing extra values.
I have since asked one of the top club players about this hand and he suggested my partner should have rebid 2D instead of raising clubs.
It struck me with this hand that as it went, I really had no solid bid, in that whatever I did could go very wrong. It felt like I had been end-played in the auction, something that I can't remember happening before.

Then you either dont play so often or your memory comes short. :)

Co Wiersma

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
We were not playing 2/1 so 2S would have been a reverse showing extra values.
I have since asked one of the top club players about this hand and he suggested my partner should have rebid 2D instead of raising clubs.
It struck me with this hand that as it went, I really had no solid bid, in that whatever I did could go very wrong. It felt like I had been end-played in the auction, something that I can't remember happening before.

Then you either dont play so often or your memory comes short. :)
Co Wiersma

I play about three times per month, I used to play more often than that when I had a partner who I played in county competitions with (I'm taking a break from bridge this summer). Even accounting for the severe head trauma and brain damage two years ago I can't remember the last time I was in quite the fix I was on that hand, particularly in an uncontested auction. I have had occasions where I have had a dilemma of two seemingly plausible actions to take, but they have been cases of judgement, which I sometimes get wrong, but players better than me get right, often because they have deduced something extra that I failed to do.

[Player]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
We were not playing 2/1 so 2S would have been a reverse showing extra values.
I have since asked one of the top club players about this hand and he suggested my partner should have rebid 2D instead of raising clubs.
It struck me with this hand that as it went, I really had no solid bid, in that whatever I did could go very wrong. It felt like I had been end-played in the auction, something that I can't remember happening before.

Then you either dont play so often or your memory comes short. :)
Co Wiersma

I play about three times per month, I used to play more often than that when I had a partner who I played in county competitions with (I'm taking a break from bridge this summer). Even accounting for the severe head trauma and brain damage two years ago I can't remember the last time I was in quite the fix I was on that hand, particularly in an uncontested auction. I have had occasions where I have had a dilemma of two seemingly plausible actions to take, but they have been cases of judgement, which I sometimes get wrong, but players better than me get right, often because they have deduced something extra that I failed to do.

ASR your partner was to blame. She showed more than she had. As I said you could have bid 3S but on another hand your pd would have had Hearts securely stopped and S would be the problem.

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

Bidding 3S flashed through my mind but on the actual deal there is a terrible danger I would end up playing in 4S on a 4-2 'fit'.

Post by Player

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
We were not playing 2/1 so 2S would have been a reverse showing extra values.
I have since asked one of the top club players about this hand and he suggested my partner should have rebid 2D instead of raising clubs.
It struck me with this hand that as it went, I really had no solid bid, in that whatever I did could go very wrong. It felt like I had been end-played in the auction, something that I can't remember happening before.

Then you either dont play so often or your memory comes short. :)
Co Wiersma

I play about three times per month, I used to play more often than that when I had a partner who I played in county competitions with (I'm taking a break from bridge this summer). Even accounting for the severe head trauma and brain damage two years ago I can't remember the last time I was in quite the fix I was on that hand, particularly in an uncontested auction. I have had occasions where I have had a dilemma of two seemingly plausible actions to take, but they have been cases of judgement, which I sometimes get wrong, but players better than me get right, often because they have deduced something extra that I failed to do.

ASR your partner was to blame. She showed more than she had. As I said you could have bid 3S but on another hand your pd would have had Hearts securely stopped and S would be the problem.

[Co Wiersma]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Bidding 3S flashed through my mind but on the actual deal there is a terrible danger I would end up playing in 4S on a 4-2 'fit'.

Bidding 3S could easy backfire as it could wrong side the 3NT

IMHO partner could easy have a minimum hand like

xx
Ax
A10xxx
Axxx

Where a spade lead would give you nine tricks if you play
But maybe not if partner leads

And dont forget either that the Jack of hearts is enough protection
When played in your hand , a spadelead will give you 9 tricks when
partner has:
xx
Jx
AKxxx
Axxx

Co Wiersma

[Sandy Barnes]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
We were not playing 2/1 so 2S would have been a reverse showing extra values.
I have since asked one of the top club players about this hand and he suggested my partner should have rebid 2D instead of raising clubs.
It struck me with this hand that as it went, I really had no solid bid, in that whatever I did could go very wrong. It felt like I had been end-played in the auction, something that I can't remember happening before.

Post by jogs

Post by Player

Post by Tom

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Matchpoints, 5 card majors, 15-17NT.
South
KJ
Q54
J5
KQ8752
Opponents silent throughout.
North South
1D 2C
3C ?
What do you do now, assuming no sophisticated conventions?

Like everyone else, I bid 3N. However, I would have bid 2S rather than
3C with pardner's hand since I do not play 1D-2C denies a 4 card major.
Now you are warned to avoid 3N. You can bid 3C and maybe stop at 4C as
neither one of you has the extra values to go to 5 even after your "game-
forcing" 2C call.
Tom Reid

I would have rebid 2D with your partner's hand. 2S is of course a reverse showing 16+ points, and 3C shows extras for me. Playing with a sane partner we would have ended in 4C.

2S is not of course a reverse. It is a matter of style.
Many play 2S just completes the pattern after a 2/1 bid.
Shows no extras.
1D - 2C
2S - 3C
Responder would not rebid NT with only Qxx in hearts.
Now 3C is not forcing.

Showing support is always best. This is important for partner to know, not guess about the quality of your support.

[jogs]

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 11:24:53 AM UTC-7,

Post by jogs
2S is not of course a reverse. It is a matter of style.
Many play 2S just completes the pattern after a 2/1 bid.
Shows no extras.
1D - 2C
2S - 3C
Responder would not rebid NT with only Qxx in hearts.
Now 3C is not forcing.

Showing support is always best. This is important for partner to know, not guess about the quality of your support.

It's all about the economy of our bidding sequence.
Bid more like the way chess players plan moves.
Partner doesn't need to know about the club support
immediately. When our fit is in a minor, it is more
critical for us to determine if the hands play better
in 3NT than finding our best level at that minor.

[Sandy Barnes]

Post by jogs

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 11:24:53 AM UTC-7,

Post by jogs
2S is not of course a reverse. It is a matter of style.
Many play 2S just completes the pattern after a 2/1 bid.
Shows no extras.
1D - 2C
2S - 3C
Responder would not rebid NT with only Qxx in hearts.
Now 3C is not forcing.

Showing support is always best. This is important for partner to know, not guess about the quality of your support.

It's all about the economy of our bidding sequence.
Bid more like the way chess players plan moves.
Partner doesn't need to know about the club support
immediately. When our fit is in a minor, it is more
critical for us to determine if the hands play better
in 3NT than finding our best level at that minor.

There were comments about re-bidding 2S with any minimum opening hand. Why do this? With a weaker hand, partner would bid 1S, not 2C. With a hand good enough to force to game, the responding hand can bid spades over partners next call, assuming no spade raise. I believe that most would treat 1D-2C; 2D as any minimum with a defect for bidding 2NT, not promising long diamonds in a game forcing auction.

[Dave Flower]

Post by Sandy Barnes

Post by jogs

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 11:24:53 AM UTC-7,

Post by jogs
2S is not of course a reverse. It is a matter of style.
Many play 2S just completes the pattern after a 2/1 bid.
Shows no extras.
1D - 2C
2S - 3C
Responder would not rebid NT with only Qxx in hearts.
Now 3C is not forcing.

Showing support is always best. This is important for partner to know, not guess about the quality of your support.

It's all about the economy of our bidding sequence.
Bid more like the way chess players plan moves.
Partner doesn't need to know about the club support
immediately. When our fit is in a minor, it is more
critical for us to determine if the hands play better
in 3NT than finding our best level at that minor.

There were comments about re-bidding 2S with any minimum opening hand. Why do this? With a weaker hand, partner would bid 1S, not 2C. With a hand good enough to force to game, the responding hand can bid spades over partners next call, assuming no spade raise. I believe that most would treat 1D-2C; 2D as any minimum with a defect for bidding 2NT, not promising long diamonds in a game forcing auction.

The original poster had a UK web address, so it is a reasonable assumption that 2NT would show extra values and that 2C was not game-forcing

Dave Flower

[Sandy Barnes]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Matchpoints, 5 card majors, 15-17NT.
South
KJ
Q54
J5
KQ8752
Opponents silent throughout.
North South
1D 2C
3C ?
What do you do now, assuming no sophisticated conventions?

It, as usual, depends on your agreements. For 3NT to be good, partner needs 3 aces, including the club ace. Lacking the club ace, you are not a favorite in 3NT. I would try 3H/3S, whichever is asking.