Simple auctions

[Howard Wachtel]

Matchpoints, None Vul.

N/S bidding, E/W silent, N is dealer. Walsh in use.

1D 1H 1S
How many diamonds (at minimum) must North have for this sequence?

1D 1H 2S
How many diamonds must North have for this sequence?

1D 1H 2NT
Same question

Thank you.
Howard Wachtel

[Travis Crump]

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, None Vul.
N/S bidding, E/W silent, N is dealer. Walsh in use.
1D 1H 1S
How many diamonds (at minimum) must North have for this sequence?

4

Post by Howard Wachtel
1D 1H 2S
How many diamonds must North have for this sequence?

5

Post by Howard Wachtel
1D 1H 2NT
Same question

4

Post by Howard Wachtel
Thank you.
Howard Wachtel

Basically any hand with only 3 diamonds would have 4 hearts and would
raise hearts assuming you only have 3 diamonds with 4=4=3=2.

[f***@googlemail.com]

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, None Vul.
N/S bidding, E/W silent, N is dealer. Walsh in use.
1D 1H 1S
How many diamonds (at minimum) must North have for this sequence?

That depends on system and partnership agreement.

There are people playing a form of 5-card majors, better minor, who would say 3. They open 1D on, say, KQxx xxx AKx Jxx

Excluding those, and assuming that 1D only shows a 3-card suit if you are exactly 4432, then if you have 4 spades and not 4 hearts, you must have 4 diamonds.

The 'standardish' 5-card major world (so not thinking of Precision or Polish Club or Carrot Club or....) is split into three.

Some people rebid 1S with 4 spades here whether the hand is balanced or not, so they could be 4243, say. This is standard Norwegian bidding, for example. It also includes a chunk of US players.

Others always rebid NT when they have a balanced hand, and so a 1S rebid then shows an unbalanced hand. They either have 5 diamonds (nearly all the time) or are exactly 4144

A smaller group play a 1D opening as showing 5 cards (or perhaps 4441), and another small group open 1C with a 4144. These people will have at least 5 diamonds.

Post by Howard Wachtel
1D 1H 2S
How many diamonds must North have for this sequence?

Assuming 2S is natural and game forcing, at least 5 diamonds.

Post by Howard Wachtel
1D 1H 2NT
Same question

Assuming 2NT is natural and shows a strong balanced hand,

4, unless you open 1D on KQxx AKx AKx xxx in which case 3.

Post by Howard Wachtel
Thank you.
Howard Wachtel

[Co Wiersma]

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by Howard Wachtel
1D 1H 2S
How many diamonds must North have for this sequence?

Assuming 2S is natural and game forcing, at least 5 diamonds.

Even this depends on what you do with a hand like

AKQJ
J
AKQJ
xxxx

Some would open 1D and rebid 2S if 1S is not 100% forcing for them

But even then you would count on 5

Co Wiersma

[jogs]

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, None Vul.
N/S bidding, E/W silent, N is dealer. Walsh in use.
1D 1H 1S
How many diamonds (at minimum) must North have for this sequence?

I like delimiters.
1D-1H; 1S
It makes the auctions easier to read.
4 card diamonds

Post by Howard Wachtel
1D 1H 2S
How many diamonds must North have for this sequence?

5

Post by Howard Wachtel
1D 1H 2NT
Same question

4

[Fred.]

Post by jogs

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, None Vul.
N/S bidding, E/W silent, N is dealer. Walsh in use.
1D 1H 1S
How many diamonds (at minimum) must North have for this sequence?

I like delimiters.
1D-1H; 1S
It makes the auctions easier to read.
4 card diamonds

Post by Howard Wachtel
1D 1H 2S
How many diamonds must North have for this sequence?

5

Post by Howard Wachtel
1D 1H 2NT
Same question

4

I do too. But, I tried the notation you suggest here, say

1D-1H; 1S-1NT

and people swore they couldn't read it unless it was written as

1D 1H
1S 1NT

Fred.

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, None Vul.
N/S bidding, E/W silent, N is dealer. Walsh in use.
1D 1H 1S
How many diamonds (at minimum) must North have for this sequence?
1D 1H 2S
How many diamonds must North have for this sequence?
1D 1H 2NT
Same question
Thank you.
Howard Wachtel

Do you really expect sensible answers if you do not say what system you
are playing?

For me the answers are 5 (unless shape exaclty 4144 with singleton
heart), 6 & 4 but you probably do not play the same system as me.

[Player]

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, None Vul.
N/S bidding, E/W silent, N is dealer. Walsh in use.
1D 1H 1S
How many diamonds (at minimum) must North have for this sequence?
1D 1H 2S
How many diamonds must North have for this sequence?
1D 1H 2NT
Same question
Thank you.
Howard Wachtel

As Frances and others have posted, this depends on system. I played a long time with a Polish expert. Playing with him
1D (P) 1H (P)
1S
Showed 4+D and 4S
In a 2/1 partnership the same auction showed 5D and 4S, unbalanced.
Others bid 1NT with 4D and 4S to show the balanced hand type. It also depends on your responses to 1m; if you play flannery style responses where 1D (P) 2H shows 5H and 4S, then obviously opener will hide 4S.

By the wy, I much prefer my notation, showing all 4 players' bids, including passes.

[Robin Johnson]

On 2017-03-25, Player <***@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]

Post by Player
By the wy, I much prefer my notation, showing all 4 players' bids, including passes.

I concur

[Kenny McCormack]

Post by Robin Johnson
[...]

Post by Player
By the wy, I much prefer my notation, showing all 4 players' bids, including passes.

I concur

I think the standard should be that we create a YouTube video, showing the
4 players and hearing them make their bids. Then you just post the YouTube
URL in your Usenet post.

YouTube videos *are* now the accepted standard way of documenting
*anything*. Plain text is just, so, ya know, 2000s.

[Howard Wachtel]

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, None Vul.
N/S bidding, E/W silent, N is dealer. Walsh in use.
1D 1H 1S
How many diamonds (at minimum) must North have for this sequence?
1D 1H 2S
How many diamonds must North have for this sequence?
1D 1H 2NT
Same question

Almost all answered 4 for the 1st auction and 5 for the second. That would mean that 1D 1H 1S is always forcing/unlimited, because opener might hold only 4 diamonds. Correct? I had previously thought this auction was not forcing, barring an agreement to the contrary. Suppose the auction continued:

1D 1H
1S 2S
2NT

What does opener's last 2NT bid mean, and is it forcing? Thanks again.

Howard Wachtel

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by Howard Wachtel

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, None Vul.
N/S bidding, E/W silent, N is dealer. Walsh in use.
1D 1H 1S How many diamonds (at minimum) must North have for this
sequence?
1D 1H 2S How many diamonds must North have for this sequence?
1D 1H 2NT Same question

Almost all answered 4 for the 1st auction and 5 for the second. That
would mean that 1D 1H 1S is always forcing/unlimited, because opener
might hold only 4 diamonds. Correct? I had previously thought this
auction was not forcing, barring an agreement to the contrary.

I think you should play it as forcing but not for the reason you state.
If you pass 1S the oppo will probably bid and if you now compete to 2S
they know if they can continue to the 3 level or not but if you raise
immediately it is harder for them to back in.

Also there is a lack of logic in a system that says a bid is forcing
when there is no fit but not forcing when you do have a fit (which I
assume you have if you pass).

Also it releases 1D - 1H - 2S to show a rock crusshing 6-5 hand and
makes slam exploration much esier if you can show this at a low level.

Post by Howard Wachtel
1D 1H 1S 2S 2NT
What does opener's last 2NT bid mean, and is it forcing? Thanks again.

2N should be a balanced game try asking if you are good for your 2S bid
and allowing you to select 3N rather than 4S if you are upper range for 2S.

[Travis Crump]

Post by Lorne Anderson

Post by Howard Wachtel

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, None Vul.
N/S bidding, E/W silent, N is dealer. Walsh in use.
1D 1H 1S How many diamonds (at minimum) must North have for this
sequence?
1D 1H 2S How many diamonds must North have for this sequence?
1D 1H 2NT Same question

Almost all answered 4 for the 1st auction and 5 for the second. That
would mean that 1D 1H 1S is always forcing/unlimited, because opener
might hold only 4 diamonds. Correct? I had previously thought this
auction was not forcing, barring an agreement to the contrary.

I think you should play it as forcing but not for the reason you state.
If you pass 1S the oppo will probably bid and if you now compete to 2S
they know if they can continue to the 3 level or not but if you raise
immediately it is harder for them to back in.
Also there is a lack of logic in a system that says a bid is forcing
when there is no fit but not forcing when you do have a fit (which I
assume you have if you pass).

Responder could have something like Kxx Jxxxx x xxxx. You aren't
planning on competing to 2S; you are just happy to be in a playable
spot. I usually describe the 1S rebid as as forcing as 1D was. If you
didn't really have your 1H bid in the first place, than you can pass.

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by Travis Crump
Responder could have something like Kxx Jxxxx x xxxx. You aren't
planning on competing to 2S; you are just happy to be in a playable
spot. I usually describe the 1S rebid as as forcing as 1D was. If you
didn't really have your 1H bid in the first place, than you can pass.

I agree with pass which should not be a problem as you could also pass
1D with a 4 count - I also agree with your description of being 'just as
forcing as 1D was'.

This also means that when you rebid 2S instead of 1S partner knows that
he can raise with this hand as you must be huge with 6-5 shape to bypass
1S which you would bid with all semi balanced 19 counts.

[f***@googlemail.com]

Post by Howard Wachtel

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, None Vul.
N/S bidding, E/W silent, N is dealer. Walsh in use.
1D 1H 1S
How many diamonds (at minimum) must North have for this sequence?
1D 1H 2S
How many diamonds must North have for this sequence?
1D 1H 2NT
Same question

Almost all answered 4 for the 1st auction and 5 for the second. That would mean that 1D 1H 1S is always forcing/unlimited, because opener might hold only 4 diamonds. Correct?

- No. I seriously do not see where this logic comes from.


I had previously thought this auction was not forcing, barring an agreement to the contrary. Suppose the auction continued:

- You are correct. 1S is not forcing, barring an agreement to the contrary.

Post by Howard Wachtel
1D 1H
1S 2S
2NT
What does opener's last 2NT bid mean, and is it forcing? Thanks again.
Howard Wachtel