Discussion:
Another pesky pre-empt
(too old to reply)
a***@yahoo.co.uk
2019-03-08 23:42:21 UTC
Permalink
8743
AQT754
K4
K

4S opened on your right. Do you overcall 5H?

If not, 4S gets passed round to your partner who overcalls 5H, opener passes. What do you do now?
Co Wiersma
2019-03-09 00:56:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
8743
AQT754
K4
K
4S opened on your right. Do you overcall 5H?
If not, 4S gets passed round to your partner who overcalls 5H, opener passes. What do you do now?
I think I must do something
probably 5NT, bet I do not have any agreement on the matter so I just
bid 6H

Co Wiersma
ais523
2019-03-09 01:15:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
8743
AQT754
K4
K
4S opened on your right. Do you overcall 5H?
I tend to be conservative in overcalling pre-empts, and I have plenty of
spades. So I pass; partner is likely to be very short in spades, and
thus if we can make something, they're likely to bid.
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
If not, 4S gets passed round to your partner who overcalls 5H, opener
passes. What do you do now?
My immediate reaction was to bid the (small) slam, and I think I'd still
do that after thinking about it, although I am concerned over potential
lack of Aces, and about the stiff King of Clubs. It's possible that 5H
was a sacrifice, but I don't think it's likely to have been
(especially as it's very hard to be confident that a 4-level pre-empt
is making). Given that the Ace of Trumps in our hand, therefore, the
lack of Aces can only be a problem if our partner was gambling that we
held the Ace of Trumps and already priced it into their bid.

It's certainly possible that 5H is making and 6H isn't, but it seems
too hard to stop at exactly the right level after a pre-empt. (I'd be
more likely to raise at IMPs than at matchpoints; the difference between
down 1 and down 2 is highly likely to be relevant at matchpoints, and
won't make much impact in IMPs on a board where game for at least one
side is highly likely.)
--
ais523
Peter Smulders
2019-03-09 13:09:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by ais523
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
8743
AQT754
K4
K
4S opened on your right. Do you overcall 5H?
I tend to be conservative in overcalling pre-empts, and I have plenty of
spades. So I pass; partner is likely to be very short in spades, and
thus if we can make something, they're likely to bid.
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
If not, 4S gets passed round to your partner who overcalls 5H, opener
passes. What do you do now?
My immediate reaction was to bid the (small) slam, and I think I'd still
do that after thinking about it, although I am concerned over potential
lack of Aces, and about the stiff King of Clubs. It's possible that 5H
was a sacrifice, but I don't think it's likely to have been
(especially as it's very hard to be confident that a 4-level pre-empt
is making). Given that the Ace of Trumps in our hand, therefore, the
lack of Aces can only be a problem if our partner was gambling that we
held the Ace of Trumps and already priced it into their bid.
It's certainly possible that 5H is making and 6H isn't, but it seems
too hard to stop at exactly the right level after a pre-empt. (I'd be
more likely to raise at IMPs than at matchpoints; the difference between
down 1 and down 2 is highly likely to be relevant at matchpoints, and
won't make much impact in IMPs on a board where game for at least one
side is highly likely.)
I suppose my partner agrees that you should not make a preempt over a
preempt. So he thinks he can make 5H without the A and Q of trumps.
Since I have those 2 cards I bid 7H.
Lorne
2019-03-10 12:51:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
8743
AQT754
K4
K
4S opened on your right. Do you overcall 5H?
If not, 4S gets passed round to your partner who overcalls 5H, opener passes. What do you do now?
If we are vul I bid 7H.

If not vul I bid 5S and hope partner bids 7H if he has a void spade + 2
minor suit aces.
a***@yahoo.co.uk
2019-03-10 13:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
8743
AQT754
K4
K
4S opened on your right. Do you overcall 5H?
If not, 4S gets passed round to your partner who overcalls 5H, opener passes. What do you do now?
At the table, I tried to work out what she must have to come in at the five level opposite a silent partner. I deduced it was most unlikely she was trying to sacrifice with a long heart suit and not much else, so decided that given her heart suit is very limited, she must hold compenmsatory strength outside and a good chance of a spade void. I hold fantastic support and second round controls in the minors, and though she must have at least one if not both aces, so 6H must be a good slam. I'm not worried about missing 7H, because no-one is going to be in it if the pre-empt is repeated at the other tables, being in 6 after that start will be a decent score. I therefore raised to 6H.

Unfortunately partner had a much worse hand that I visioned, and I watched as she went two off.

The full layout

8743
AQT754
K4
K
AKJT52 6
- 98
T9 J76532
Q8642 AJ53
Q9
KJ632
AQ8
T97

We had a brief discussion afterwards and she agreed she had gone too far. Her initial explanation was she thought 4S was making and going off in 5H would be less expensive.

The irony is, she was theoretically correct. 4S is cold, and 11 tricks are there if I don't find the double dummy defence of the DK lead, whereas 5H is one off. In practice, the 4S opening was not repeated on at least half the other tables, so four NS pairs got to play in 4H=. A couple of pairs went one off in 5H, and one EW pair was in 5S=.
ais523
2019-03-10 20:09:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
8743
AQT754
K4
K
4S opened on your right. Do you overcall 5H?
If not, 4S gets passed round to your partner who overcalls 5H, opener
passes. What do you do now?
At the table, I tried to work out what she must have to come in at the
five level opposite a silent partner. I deduced it was most unlikely
she was trying to sacrifice with a long heart suit and not much else,
so decided that given her heart suit is very limited, she must hold
compenmsatory strength outside and a good chance of a spade void. I
hold fantastic support and second round controls in the minors, and
though she must have at least one if not both aces, so 6H must be a
good slam. I'm not worried about missing 7H, because no-one is going
to be in it if the pre-empt is repeated at the other tables, being in
6 after that start will be a decent score. I therefore raised to 6H.
Unfortunately partner had a much worse hand that I visioned, and I
watched as she went two off.
The full layout
8743
AQT754
K4
K
AKJT52 6
- 98
T9 J76532
Q8642 AJ53
Q9
KJ632
AQ8
T97
We had a brief discussion afterwards and she agreed she had gone too
far. Her initial explanation was she thought 4S was making and going
off in 5H would be less expensive.
The irony is, she was theoretically correct. 4S is cold, and 11 tricks
are there if I don't find the double dummy defence of the DK lead,
whereas 5H is one off. In practice, the 4S opening was not repeated on
at least half the other tables, so four NS pairs got to play in 4H=. A
couple of pairs went one off in 5H, and one EW pair was in 5S=.
I normally play X as weaker than a suit bid (and at high levels,
especially over 4S, you have to be fairly flexible with what X means).
South's hand is not worth a suit bid (there are too many missing Aces),
but (given the shortage in spades, good hearts, and decent point
count) is probably worth a double, especially after two passes;
generally speaking, after a pre-empt, it should be a player who's
short in the pre-emptors suit who makes the first move.

If South doubles, it's clear for North to pull (even if the double is
agreed as penalty); the spade spots are too low for it to be worth
playing for a penalty, with 8743 being a horrible trump holding to
attempt to penalize the opponents. So that's the only plausible way to
reach the 5H sacrifice on this board, treating it as a sacrifice rather
than as a constructive bid.
--
ais523
a***@yahoo.co.uk
2019-03-10 21:02:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by ais523
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
8743
AQT754
K4
K
4S opened on your right. Do you overcall 5H?
If not, 4S gets passed round to your partner who overcalls 5H, opener
passes. What do you do now?
At the table, I tried to work out what she must have to come in at the
five level opposite a silent partner. I deduced it was most unlikely
she was trying to sacrifice with a long heart suit and not much else,
so decided that given her heart suit is very limited, she must hold
compenmsatory strength outside and a good chance of a spade void. I
hold fantastic support and second round controls in the minors, and
though she must have at least one if not both aces, so 6H must be a
good slam. I'm not worried about missing 7H, because no-one is going
to be in it if the pre-empt is repeated at the other tables, being in
6 after that start will be a decent score. I therefore raised to 6H.
Unfortunately partner had a much worse hand that I visioned, and I
watched as she went two off.
The full layout
8743
AQT754
K4
K
AKJT52 6
- 98
T9 J76532
Q8642 AJ53
Q9
KJ632
AQ8
T97
We had a brief discussion afterwards and she agreed she had gone too
far. Her initial explanation was she thought 4S was making and going
off in 5H would be less expensive.
The irony is, she was theoretically correct. 4S is cold, and 11 tricks
are there if I don't find the double dummy defence of the DK lead,
whereas 5H is one off. In practice, the 4S opening was not repeated on
at least half the other tables, so four NS pairs got to play in 4H=. A
couple of pairs went one off in 5H, and one EW pair was in 5S=.
I normally play X as weaker than a suit bid (and at high levels,
especially over 4S, you have to be fairly flexible with what X means).
South's hand is not worth a suit bid (there are too many missing Aces),
but (given the shortage in spades, good hearts, and decent point
count) is probably worth a double, especially after two passes;
generally speaking, after a pre-empt, it should be a player who's
short in the pre-emptors suit who makes the first move.
If South doubles, it's clear for North to pull (even if the double is
agreed as penalty); the spade spots are too low for it to be worth
playing for a penalty, with 8743 being a horrible trump holding to
attempt to penalize the opponents. So that's the only plausible way to
reach the 5H sacrifice on this board, treating it as a sacrifice rather
than as a constructive bid.
--
ais523
That is an instructive analysis, thanks.
Co Wiersma
2019-03-10 21:47:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
8743
AQT754
K4
K
4S opened on your right. Do you overcall 5H?
If not, 4S gets passed round to your partner who overcalls 5H, opener passes. What do you do now?
At the table, I tried to work out what she must have to come in at the five level opposite a silent partner. I deduced it was most unlikely she was trying to sacrifice with a long heart suit and not much else, so decided that given her heart suit is very limited, she must hold compenmsatory strength outside and a good chance of a spade void. I hold fantastic support and second round controls in the minors, and though she must have at least one if not both aces, so 6H must be a good slam. I'm not worried about missing 7H, because no-one is going to be in it if the pre-empt is repeated at the other tables, being in 6 after that start will be a decent score. I therefore raised to 6H.
Unfortunately partner had a much worse hand that I visioned, and I watched as she went two off.
The full layout
8743
AQT754
K4
K
AKJT52 6
- 98
T9 J76532
Q8642 AJ53
Q9
KJ632
AQ8
T97
We had a brief discussion afterwards and she agreed she had gone too far. Her initial explanation was she thought 4S was making and going off in 5H would be less expensive.
The irony is, she was theoretically correct. 4S is cold, and 11 tricks are there if I don't find the double dummy defence of the DK lead, whereas 5H is one off. In practice, the 4S opening was not repeated on at least half the other tables, so four NS pairs got to play in 4H=. A couple of pairs went one off in 5H, and one EW pair was in 5S=.
There is absolutely nothing in the South hand (combined with the bidding
so far) that would make me think 4S is making

And there is nothing in the south hand that make me think we will make
more than 6 tricks in a heart contract

I think it was bad bidding by South, but hey we all make mistakes
The bad excuses for the bad bidding make me worry
Co Wiersma
Hotzenplotz
2019-03-12 06:55:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
8743
AQT754
K4
K
4S opened on your right. Do you overcall 5H?
If not, 4S gets passed round to your partner who overcalls 5H, opener passes. What do you do now?
At the table, I tried to work out what she must have to come in at the five level opposite a silent partner. I deduced it was most unlikely she was trying to sacrifice with a long heart suit and not much else, so decided that given her heart suit is very limited, she must hold compenmsatory strength outside and a good chance of a spade void. I hold fantastic support and second round controls in the minors, and though she must have at least one if not both aces, so 6H must be a good slam. I'm not worried about missing 7H, because no-one is going to be in it if the pre-empt is repeated at the other tables, being in 6 after that start will be a decent score. I therefore raised to 6H.
Unfortunately partner had a much worse hand that I visioned, and I watched as she went two off.
The full layout
8743
AQT754
K4
K
AKJT52 6
- 98
T9 J76532
Q8642 AJ53
Q9
KJ632
AQ8
T97
We had a brief discussion afterwards and she agreed she had gone too far. Her initial explanation was she thought 4S was making and going off in 5H would be less expensive.
The irony is, she was theoretically correct. 4S is cold, and 11 tricks are there if I don't find the double dummy defence of the DK lead, whereas 5H is one off. In practice, the 4S opening was not repeated on at least half the other tables, so four NS pairs got to play in 4H=. A couple of pairs went one off in 5H, and one EW pair was in 5S=.
Your pd is either an idiot or a beginner or both.
Steve Willner
2019-04-04 21:46:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
8743
AQT754
K4
K
4S opened on your right. Do you overcall 5H?
This is very tough. If partner has anything, hearts will play well, but
partner can be broke. I think I'd pass, especially at IMPs, but 5H
could well be a good contract. Partner will be short in spades and will
probably double, and bidding 5H then will be fine.
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
If not, 4S gets passed round to your partner who overcalls 5H, opener passes. What do you do now?
I have _far_ more than partner should be playing me for. I'd bid 5S as
a general try for grand, but I can understand a simple 6H.
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Unfortunately partner had a much worse hand that I visioned
8743
AQT754
K4
K
AKJT52 6
- 98
T9 J76532
Q8642 AJ53
Q9
KJ632
AQ8
T97
Her initial explanation was she thought 4S was making and going off
in 5H would be less expensive.
TOx would be aggressive with that hand; 5H was ridiculous. I think what
really happened is that you took some extra time over 4S, and partner
was illegally bidding your values. I'm speculating, of course: you were
there, and I wasn't. However, you might want to consider what to do if
this is a possibility.

I like West's 4S bid. Any chance you could arrange to partner that player?
a***@yahoo.co.uk
2019-04-04 22:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Willner
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
8743
AQT754
K4
K
4S opened on your right. Do you overcall 5H?
This is very tough. If partner has anything, hearts will play well, but
partner can be broke. I think I'd pass, especially at IMPs, but 5H
could well be a good contract. Partner will be short in spades and will
probably double, and bidding 5H then will be fine.
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
If not, 4S gets passed round to your partner who overcalls 5H, opener passes. What do you do now?
I have _far_ more than partner should be playing me for. I'd bid 5S as
a general try for grand, but I can understand a simple 6H.
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Unfortunately partner had a much worse hand that I visioned
8743
AQT754
K4
K
AKJT52 6
- 98
T9 J76532
Q8642 AJ53
Q9
KJ632
AQ8
T97
Her initial explanation was she thought 4S was making and going off
in 5H would be less expensive.
TOx would be aggressive with that hand; 5H was ridiculous. I think what
really happened is that you took some extra time over 4S, and partner
was illegally bidding your values. I'm speculating, of course: you were
there, and I wasn't. However, you might want to consider what to do if
this is a possibility.
I like West's 4S bid. Any chance you could arrange to partner that player?
I can assure you I passed in tempo, you are technically supposed to pause for 10 seconds after a jump bid, I didn't pause for that length of time.
Hotzenplotz
2019-03-12 06:54:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
8743
AQT754
K4
K
4S opened on your right. Do you overcall 5H?
If not, 4S gets passed round to your partner who overcalls 5H, opener passes. What do you do now?
Pass and 6H
Charles Brenner
2019-04-30 00:46:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
8743
AQT754
K4
K
4S opened on your right. Do you overcall 5H?
If not, 4S gets passed round to your partner who overcalls 5H, opener passes. What do you do now?
What vulnerability, form of scoring, and who dealt? Even if my answer is the same regardless I'd rather think about one problem than some multiple of four problems.
ais523
2019-04-30 01:22:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Brenner
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
8743
AQT754
K4
K
4S opened on your right. Do you overcall 5H?
If not, 4S gets passed round to your partner who overcalls 5H, opener
passes. What do you do now?
What vulnerability, form of scoring, and who dealt? Even if my answer
is the same regardless I'd rather think about one problem than some
multiple of four problems.
I assume RHO dealt. It's hard to imagine a hand strong enough to balance
with 5H over 4S, but not strong enough to make an opening bid, so
partner is almost certainly not a passed hand.
--
ais523
smn
2019-05-03 23:56:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
8743
AQT754
K4
K
4S opened on your right. Do you overcall 5H?
If not, 4S gets passed round to your partner who overcalls 5H, opener passes. What do you do now?
I pass then over partners 5h I bid 6h .What game is this (matchpoint or imps) ?
a***@yahoo.co.uk
2019-05-10 11:23:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by smn
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
8743
AQT754
K4
K
4S opened on your right. Do you overcall 5H?
If not, 4S gets passed round to your partner who overcalls 5H, opener passes. What do you do now?
I pass then over partners 5h I bid 6h .What game is this (matchpoint or imps) ?
Matchpoints.

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