Discussion:
Response of 2 NT after partner opens in a minor suit
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j***@gmail.com
2017-12-11 05:34:26 UTC
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Partner opens in a minor suit and responder bids 2 NT. What does this bid mean? I've heard two possible explanations:

(1) 13 to 15 points and a balanced hand with no four card major.

(2) Invitational with 10 to 12 points and a balanced hand with no four card major. Would have bid 3 NT with 13 to 15 points.

Which of these is correct? Thank you!
David Goldfarb
2017-12-11 06:18:50 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
Partner opens in a minor suit and responder bids 2 NT. What does this
(1) 13 to 15 points and a balanced hand with no four card major.
(2) Invitational with 10 to 12 points and a balanced hand with no four
card major. Would have bid 3 NT with 13 to 15 points.
Which of these is correct? Thank you!
It means whichever one you and your partner have agreed it means.

In the US, at least, meaning 2 is by far the more common.
--
David Goldfarb |"I weep for the death of the spirit and soul."
***@gmail.com | "Hey, who doesn't? We'll be right back."
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Mystery Science Theatre 3000
Mick Heins
2017-12-11 14:56:07 UTC
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Post by David Goldfarb
Post by j***@gmail.com
Partner opens in a minor suit and responder bids 2 NT. What does this
(1) 13 to 15 points and a balanced hand with no four card major.
(2) Invitational with 10 to 12 points and a balanced hand with no four
card major. Would have bid 3 NT with 13 to 15 points.
Which of these is correct? Thank you!
It means whichever one you and your partner have agreed it means.
In the US, at least, meaning 2 is by far the more common.
And I would add that the range would be more properly described
as 11-12, so that a game bid could be made on all 14-counts and
a good 13.
--
Mickey

There's nothing sweeter than life nor more precious than time.
-- Barney
Bruce Evans
2017-12-12 01:50:17 UTC
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Post by Mick Heins
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by j***@gmail.com
Partner opens in a minor suit and responder bids 2 NT. What does this
(1) 13 to 15 points and a balanced hand with no four card major.
(2) Invitational with 10 to 12 points and a balanced hand with no four
card major. Would have bid 3 NT with 13 to 15 points.
Which of these is correct? Thank you!
It means whichever one you and your partner have agreed it means.
Indeed.
Post by Mick Heins
Post by David Goldfarb
In the US, at least, meaning 2 is by far the more common.
Indoubt.

Is the US different from the USA? In 1960's Standard American and 1988
and through 2017 SAYC (Standard American Yellow Card), 2NT is 13-15 HCP
(forcing). In the 1960's _5 Weeks to Winning Bridge_, it can have a
4 card major, but must have strength in all suits.

11-12 is often played in newfangled American systems like 2/1 Game
Forcing with Inverted Minors. Inverted minors make it not so bad
because it almost never comes up -- you should always raise with 4
or have length in another suit and can bid it. I make inverted raises
with only 3 with passed hand. 2NT with 10-12 is especially good for
punishing light openings, and light openings are even more common
by passed hands. They are also more common than in the 1960's, so
if 11-12 was enough for 2NT in 1960's Standard American, they you
need about 13-14 for the same safety now, but that is too much for
a non-forcing 2NT.

10-12 is probably more common in the UK, since almost everything is
natural and nonforcing in Acol.
Post by Mick Heins
And I would add that the range would be more properly described
as 11-12, so that a game bid could be made on all 14-counts and
a good 13.
10 is better for punishing light openings. In Reese and Dormer's
1973 Acolish book, it is only allowed with good intermediates.
Otherwise 11-12. 13-15 is mentioned as an alternative method, but
no details are given.

Bruce
Barry Margolin
2017-12-12 05:11:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Evans
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by j***@gmail.com
Partner opens in a minor suit and responder bids 2 NT. What does this
(1) 13 to 15 points and a balanced hand with no four card major.
(2) Invitational with 10 to 12 points and a balanced hand with no four
card major. Would have bid 3 NT with 13 to 15 points.
Which of these is correct? Thank you!
It means whichever one you and your partner have agreed it means.
Indeed.
Post by David Goldfarb
In the US, at least, meaning 2 is by far the more common.
Indoubt.
Is the US different from the USA? In 1960's Standard American and 1988
and through 2017 SAYC (Standard American Yellow Card), 2NT is 13-15 HCP
(forcing). In the 1960's _5 Weeks to Winning Bridge_, it can have a
4 card major, but must have strength in all suits.
Check your calendar, the 1960's was 50 years ago, and a lot has changed.
--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA
Mick Heins
2017-12-17 05:45:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Evans
Post by Mick Heins
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by j***@gmail.com
Partner opens in a minor suit and responder bids 2 NT. What does this
(1) 13 to 15 points and a balanced hand with no four card major.
(2) Invitational with 10 to 12 points and a balanced hand with no four
card major. Would have bid 3 NT with 13 to 15 points.
Which of these is correct? Thank you!
It means whichever one you and your partner have agreed it means.
Indeed.
Post by Mick Heins
Post by David Goldfarb
In the US, at least, meaning 2 is by far the more common.
Indoubt.
Is the US different from the USA? In 1960's Standard American and 1988
and through 2017 SAYC (Standard American Yellow Card), 2NT is 13-15 HCP
(forcing). In the 1960's _5 Weeks to Winning Bridge_, it can have a
4 card major, but must have strength in all suits.
I should say, "in US duplicate games". I don't pretend to know what
the remaining rubber bridge players do.
Post by Bruce Evans
11-12 is often played in newfangled American systems like 2/1 Game
Forcing with Inverted Minors. Inverted minors make it not so bad
because it almost never comes up -- you should always raise with 4
or have length in another suit and can bid it.
I don't find this to be true at all -- it is the type of bid that
comes up every other session or even more often. Especially if you
don't do an inverted minor bid with four card support and a NT-
oriented hand.
Post by Bruce Evans
I make inverted raises
with only 3 with passed hand. 2NT with 10-12 is especially good for
punishing light openings, and light openings are even more common
by passed hands. They are also more common than in the 1960's, so
if 11-12 was enough for 2NT in 1960's Standard American, they you
need about 13-14 for the same safety now, but that is too much for
a non-forcing 2NT.
If you open a light style with a 14-16 NT, then 11+-13 is the way to
do it.
Post by Bruce Evans
10-12 is probably more common in the UK, since almost everything is
natural and nonforcing in Acol.
Post by Mick Heins
And I would add that the range would be more properly described
as 11-12, so that a game bid could be made on all 14-counts and
a good 13.
10 is better for punishing light openings. In Reese and Dormer's
1973 Acolish book, it is only allowed with good intermediates.
Otherwise 11-12. 13-15 is mentioned as an alternative method, but
no details are given.
Again, I am talking US modern practice.
--
Mickey

There's nothing sweeter than life nor more precious than time.
-- Barney
Ars Ivci
2017-12-11 14:03:40 UTC
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On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:34:26 -0800 (PST)
Post by j***@gmail.com
(1) 13 to 15 points and a balanced hand with no four card major.
(2) Invitational with 10 to 12 points and a balanced hand with no four card major. Would have bid 3 NT with 13 to 15 points.
Which of these is correct? Thank you!
Your (plural) choice, really. However, if you are using inverted minor raises, it's slightly better to use option 1. Without a prior agreement, I would assume option 2, though.
peace,
t.
--
Ars Ivci <***@gmail.com>
Steve Willner
2017-12-11 21:37:35 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
Partner opens in a minor suit and responder bids 2 NT.
(1) 13 to 15 points and a balanced hand with no four card major.
(2) Invitational with 10 to 12 points and a balanced hand with no
four card major. Would have bid 3 NT with 13 to 15 points.
The exact ranges can differ depending on what your opening bid strength
looks like, and "no four card major" should be "no four card major he
wants to show." (Suppressing a weak 4cM can sometimes be a good idea.)

In the US, 1 is the ancient traditional meaning. The range also
includes 18+ points, planning to bid above game later on. 2 seems to be
the popular meaning nowadays. I think 2 was always standard in the UK
and other Acol-playing territory.

I think 1 is superior if the rest of your system can tolerate it, but I
usually play 2 with casual partners because that's what they are used to.

Bidding 3NT with 13-15, though, is truly horrible. If opener has a
minimum-range but unbalanced hand, he never knows whether to bid on or
pass. With this range, it's far better to make a forcing bid in one of
the minors and see what opener does. Then 3NT shows 15-17 or 16-17, and
opener can bid out his shape over 3NT if he has any slam hopes or worry
about NT. The partnership will have enough strength to play 4NT if
opener's rebid doesn't excite responder.
Co Wiersma
2017-12-12 02:31:56 UTC
Permalink
Op 11-12-2017 om 22:37 schreef Steve Willner:
<......>
and "no four card major" should be "no four card major he
wants to show."  (Suppressing a weak 4cM can sometimes be a good idea.)
<.....>


Even if you want to bid 2NT with a hand like

KJx
xxxx
QJx
KJx

Still that be an exception
And as long as its an exception and partner has no way of anticipating
the 4card hearts,
then I think that "no 4card major" is what you promise and so that
should be the wording

Co Wiersma
Lorne
2017-12-11 23:13:49 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
(1) 13 to 15 points and a balanced hand with no four card major.
(2) Invitational with 10 to 12 points and a balanced hand with no four card major. Would have bid 3 NT with 13 to 15 points.
Which of these is correct? Thank you!
You really need to tell us where you live and what basic system you play
if you want sensible answers to questions like this. There are in fact
many different agreements that people play of which the 2nd you quote is
by far the most common amongst club players using natural methods in the
countries where I have played.

Where I live your 1st suggestion is almost unheard of, but that is not
the case elsewhere, and a common agreement here is 16+ balanced but I
suspect that maybe unheard of in some places.

Also many tournament played play inverted minor suit raises which opens
up other possibilities for 2N.
Player
2017-12-12 01:00:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
(1) 13 to 15 points and a balanced hand with no four card major.
(2) Invitational with 10 to 12 points and a balanced hand with no four card major. Would have bid 3 NT with 13 to 15 points.
Which of these is correct? Thank you!
Quite a few years ago I played a third option. a balanced 16+ requiring opener to bid his 4 card suits up the line. This was called Baron.
Anyway the answer is whatever you and your partner have agreed.
smn
2017-12-21 23:21:19 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
(1) 13 to 15 points and a balanced hand with no four card major.
(2) Invitational with 10 to 12 points and a balanced hand with no four card major. Would have bid 3 NT with 13 to 15 points.
Which of these is correct? Thank you!
Well ,if you play 2/1 game force then it is almost always played 10-12 balanced with no 4 card major ,and 3n is 13-15 .
If you play standard american (2/1 10+ hcp) I like 13-15 but lots of players use 10-12 here also. smn
Jean Pierre Fontenille
2018-01-07 05:31:51 UTC
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Invitational with 10 to 12 points and a balanced hand with no four card major. Would have bid 3 NT with 13 to 15 points.
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