Discussion:
competing or inviting?
(too old to reply)
dfm
2016-12-22 19:25:33 UTC
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My partner and I went wrong on this auction today:

1S (2C) 2S (3D)
?

Do you play 3S here as invitational or just competitive?

If it's competitive, how do you invite? If it's invitational, how do you compete?

What's your general rule about this, if the 2C and 3D bids are something else?
Will in New Haven
2016-12-22 19:50:19 UTC
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Post by dfm
1S (2C) 2S (3D)
?
Do you play 3S here as invitational or just competitive?
Competitive.
Post by dfm
If it's competitive, how do you invite? If it's invitational, how do you compete?
In this case, the intervening bid, 3H, is artificial and invitational.
If 3S were invitational, I could not compete, unless we made 3H competitive in Spades.
Post by dfm
What's your general rule about this, if the 2C and 3D bids are something else?
If there is one possible intervening bid, see above.

If there are two intervening bids possible, say over 3C, both are invitational but they draw attention to the suit chosen.

If there are no possible intervening bids, say over 3H when our suit is Spades, double is invitational and 3S is competitive or, in a different partnership, we never invite anyway so double is penalty and 3S is competitive.
--
Will now in Pompano Beach
Lorne Anderson
2016-12-22 21:29:20 UTC
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Post by dfm
1S (2C) 2S (3D)
?
Do you play 3S here as invitational or just competitive?
If it's competitive, how do you invite? If it's invitational, how do you compete?
What's your general rule about this, if the 2C and 3D bids are something else?
3S=competitive. General rule is that if you bid and raise a major any
new suit at 3 level is a game try, so in this case 3H invites in spades.
Ronald
2016-12-22 22:40:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by dfm
1S (2C) 2S (3D)
?
Do you play 3S here as invitational or just competitive?
If it's competitive, how do you invite? If it's invitational, how do you compete?
What's your general rule about this, if the 2C and 3D bids are something else?
Competitive, 3H and X are both invitational. X shows low ODR and can be
converted to penalty.
--
Ronald
Lorne Anderson
2016-12-23 10:57:28 UTC
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Post by Ronald
Post by dfm
1S (2C) 2S (3D)
?
Do you play 3S here as invitational or just competitive?
If it's competitive, how do you invite? If it's invitational, how do you compete?
What's your general rule about this, if the 2C and 3D bids are something else?
Competitive, 3H and X are both invitational. X shows low ODR and can be
converted to penalty.
Double is usually only a game try if the oppo bid the suit below ours -
ie if they bid 3H here dble is a game try. I would take a double of 3D
as penalty.
KWSchneider
2016-12-23 15:15:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by dfm
1S (2C) 2S (3D)
?
Do you play 3S here as invitational or just competitive?
If it's competitive, how do you invite? If it's invitational, how do you compete?
What's your general rule about this, if the 2C and 3D bids are something else?
X = invitational strength, penalty, defense oriented
3H = invitational, offense oriented
3S = competitive

Others:
1S (2D) 2S (3C)
X = invitational defensive (do something intelligent)
3D = strong invitation
3H = invitational offensive
3S = competitive

After:
1S (X) 2S (3H)
X = invitational (do something intelligent)
3S = competitive

Kurt
--
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Player
2016-12-24 00:16:45 UTC
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Post by KWSchneider
Post by dfm
1S (2C) 2S (3D)
?
Do you play 3S here as invitational or just competitive?
If it's competitive, how do you invite? If it's invitational, how do you compete?
What's your general rule about this, if the 2C and 3D bids are something else?
X = invitational strength, penalty, defense oriented
3H = invitational, offense oriented
3S = competitive
1S (2D) 2S (3C)
X = invitational defensive (do something intelligent)
3D = strong invitation
3H = invitational offensive
3S = competitive
1S (X) 2S (3H)
X = invitational (do something intelligent)
3S = competitive
Kurt
--
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This.
jogs
2016-12-23 15:17:26 UTC
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Post by dfm
1S (2C) 2S (3D)
?
Do you play 3S here as invitational or just competitive?
If it's competitive, how do you invite? If it's invitational, how do you compete?
What's your general rule about this, if the 2C and 3D bids are something else?
There is no invitational bid. In contested auctions all bids are competitive. Assuming your opponents are rational, in this auction they have more HCP than you do.
Ronald
2016-12-23 17:22:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by jogs
Post by dfm
1S (2C) 2S (3D)
?
Do you play 3S here as invitational or just competitive?
If it's competitive, how do you invite? If it's invitational, how do you compete?
What's your general rule about this, if the 2C and 3D bids are something else?
There is no invitational bid. In contested auctions all bids are
competitive. Assuming your opponents are rational, in this auction they
have more HCP than you do.
Jogs, you of all people think only about HCP???
--
Ronald
jogs
2016-12-23 21:03:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ronald
Post by jogs
Post by dfm
1S (2C) 2S (3D)
?
Do you play 3S here as invitational or just competitive?
If it's competitive, how do you invite? If it's invitational, how do you compete?
What's your general rule about this, if the 2C and 3D bids are something else?
There is no invitational bid. In contested auctions all bids are
competitive. Assuming your opponents are rational, in this auction they
have more HCP than you do.
Jogs, you of all people think only about HCP???
--
Ronald
That's what the ACBL laws think. Not what I think.

Tricks are a function of HCP, trump fit and length, short suit totals, and many other things.
The side holding the higher ranking suit has an advantage.

All these parameters only gives an estimate of possible tricks.

All these systems reserving many bids for invitations seems to think parameters can actually give an exact trick count. No, it is always an estimate of tricks. Tricks +/- x. And that x is usually greater than one.
p***@infi.net
2016-12-24 01:15:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by dfm
1S (2C) 2S (3D)
?
Do you play 3S here as invitational or just competitive?
If it's competitive, how do you invite? If it's invitational, how do you compete?
What's your general rule about this, if the 2C and 3D bids are something else?
In competition, bids are generally competitive. Opener should have mild extra shape, a sixth trump or a singleton or perhaps a goodish side suit such as KQJ10; something that rates to be more useful on offense than defense. Hands which would normally invite should just bid game, let them guess whether you expect to make and whether they should sacrifice. Hands which have minimal shape (5332) but extra high cards should double, which partner will usually convert to 3S but may possibly pass for penalties or jump to game.
Ronald
2016-12-24 11:13:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@infi.net
Post by dfm
1S (2C) 2S (3D)
?
Do you play 3S here as invitational or just competitive?
If it's competitive, how do you invite? If it's invitational, how do you compete?
What's your general rule about this, if the 2C and 3D bids are something else?
In competition, bids are generally competitive. Opener should have mild
extra shape, a sixth trump or a singleton or perhaps a goodish side suit
such as KQJ10; something that rates to be more useful on offense than
defense. Hands which would normally invite should just bid game, let them
guess whether you expect to make and whether they should sacrifice. Hands
which have minimal shape (5332) but extra high cards should double, which
partner will usually convert to 3S but may possibly pass for penalties or jump to game.
With "them" you mean the other THREE at the table?
--
Ronald
p***@infi.net
2016-12-26 21:07:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ronald
Post by p***@infi.net
Post by dfm
1S (2C) 2S (3D)
?
Do you play 3S here as invitational or just competitive?
If it's competitive, how do you invite? If it's invitational, how do you compete?
What's your general rule about this, if the 2C and 3D bids are something else?
In competition, bids are generally competitive. Opener should have mild
extra shape, a sixth trump or a singleton or perhaps a goodish side suit
such as KQJ10; something that rates to be more useful on offense than
defense. Hands which would normally invite should just bid game, let them
guess whether you expect to make and whether they should sacrifice. Hands
which have minimal shape (5332) but extra high cards should double, which
partner will usually convert to 3S but may possibly pass for penalties or jump to game.
With "them" you mean the other THREE at the table?
--
Ronald
My practice is to cue-bid their suit if I am bidding game basically on high card strength, setting up a forcing pass situation if they compete further. I think this is common expert practice but Ron (aka Player) has disparaged the idea. Kit Woolsey, among others, endorses bidding game on a hand that would invite in the absence of competition.
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