A significant cock up

[Adam Lea]

I held this hand earlier this evening:

AQTx
K
xxx
AKQxx

I opened 1C, partner responded 1H, I had a think and decided that it
wasn't quite worth a 2S rebid so I rebid 1S. Partner now bid 2D FSF and
now I find myself endplayed in the bidding. I know we must have a game
on but can't think of a response to show my strength whilst still
leaving 3NT as an option. I responded 3C hoping partner would find
another bid but it got passed out.

Partner puts down something like this (can't remember exactly, I know it
was an 11 count and we had at least nine tricks off the top):

Kx
AJ9xx
Kxx
Txxx

I ended up making 12 tricks for a complete bottom, 3NT is cold at least
if played by partner. Should I have re-bid 2S instead of 1S. What should
I have done opposite partners' fourth suit forcing bid?

Thanks

Adam

[[e-mail]]

Post by Adam Lea
AQTx
K
xxx
AKQxx
I opened 1C, partner responded 1H, I had a think and decided that it
wasn't quite worth a 2S rebid so I rebid 1S. Partner now bid 2D FSF and
now I find myself endplayed in the bidding. I know we must have a game
on but can't think of a response to show my strength whilst still
leaving 3NT as an option. I responded 3C hoping partner would find
another bid but it got passed out.
Partner puts down something like this (can't remember exactly, I know it
Kx
AJ9xx
Kxx
Txxx
I ended up making 12 tricks for a complete bottom, 3NT is cold at least
if played by partner. Should I have re-bid 2S instead of 1S. What should
I have done opposite partners' fourth suit forcing bid?
Thanks
Adam

I believe the evidence is clear that partner must not bid 2D with that hand. Either 2NT or 3C would have worked fine. And will always work fine.

Without game values, bid 4th suit only when everything else is *terrible*.

Carl

[Player]

Post by Adam Lea
AQTx
K
xxx
AKQxx
I opened 1C, partner responded 1H, I had a think and decided that it
wasn't quite worth a 2S rebid so I rebid 1S. Partner now bid 2D FSF and
now I find myself endplayed in the bidding. I know we must have a game
on but can't think of a response to show my strength whilst still
leaving 3NT as an option. I responded 3C hoping partner would find
another bid but it got passed out.
Partner puts down something like this (can't remember exactly, I know it
Kx
AJ9xx
Kxx
Txxx
I ended up making 12 tricks for a complete bottom, 3NT is cold at least
if played by partner. Should I have re-bid 2S instead of 1S. What should
I have done opposite partners' fourth suit forcing bid?
Thanks
Adam

Your partner passed 3C? Your partnership has a very odd way of playing 4sf. I play it as gf. Even not playing it as gf surely the 4th suit bidder promises another bid. I think 3C is fine and I think yur partner needs to read some books. Rather than 4th suit forcing, your partner has an obvious 2NT bid anyway.

[jogs]

Post by Player

Post by Adam Lea
AQTx
K
xxx
AKQxx
I opened 1C, partner responded 1H, I had a think and decided that it
wasn't quite worth a 2S rebid so I rebid 1S. Partner now bid 2D FSF and
now I find myself endplayed in the bidding. I know we must have a game
on but can't think of a response to show my strength whilst still
leaving 3NT as an option. I responded 3C hoping partner would find
another bid but it got passed out.
Partner puts down something like this (can't remember exactly, I know it
Kx
AJ9xx
Kxx
Txxx
I ended up making 12 tricks for a complete bottom, 3NT is cold at least
if played by partner. Should I have re-bid 2S instead of 1S. What should
I have done opposite partners' fourth suit forcing bid?
Thanks
Adam

Your partner passed 3C? Your partnership has a very odd way of playing 4sf. I play it as gf. Even not playing it as gf surely the 4th suit bidder promises another bid. I think 3C is fine and I think yur partner needs to read some books. Rather than 4th suit forcing, your partner has an obvious 2NT bid anyway.

Yes, pard should bid 2NT. When he chose 2D, he can't pass short of game.

[Adam Lea]

Post by Player

Post by Adam Lea
AQTx
K
xxx
AKQxx
I opened 1C, partner responded 1H, I had a think and decided that it
wasn't quite worth a 2S rebid so I rebid 1S. Partner now bid 2D FSF and
now I find myself endplayed in the bidding. I know we must have a game
on but can't think of a response to show my strength whilst still
leaving 3NT as an option. I responded 3C hoping partner would find
another bid but it got passed out.
Partner puts down something like this (can't remember exactly, I know it
Kx
AJ9xx
Kxx
Txxx
I ended up making 12 tricks for a complete bottom, 3NT is cold at least
if played by partner. Should I have re-bid 2S instead of 1S. What should
I have done opposite partners' fourth suit forcing bid?
Thanks
Adam

Your partner passed 3C? Your partnership has a very odd way of playing 4sf. I play it as gf. Even not playing it as gf surely the 4th suit bidder promises another bid. I think 3C is fine and I think yur partner needs to read some books. Rather than 4th suit forcing, your partner has an obvious 2NT bid anyway.

I prefer to play FSF as game forcing, but some people in my bridge
circles only play it as one round forcing (unless the FSF is made at the
three level). My partner said he didn't fancy bidding 2NT because he
thought Kxx was an inadequate stop (I think he would have preferred a
double stop). Since in the bidding I could still have a 12 count, we may
not have nine tricks when the defence knock out the DK.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Adam Lea

Post by Player

Post by Adam Lea
AQTx
K
xxx
AKQxx
I opened 1C, partner responded 1H, I had a think and decided that it
wasn't quite worth a 2S rebid so I rebid 1S. Partner now bid 2D FSF and
now I find myself endplayed in the bidding. I know we must have a game
on but can't think of a response to show my strength whilst still
leaving 3NT as an option. I responded 3C hoping partner would find
another bid but it got passed out.
Partner puts down something like this (can't remember exactly, I know it
Kx
AJ9xx
Kxx
Txxx
I ended up making 12 tricks for a complete bottom, 3NT is cold at least
if played by partner. Should I have re-bid 2S instead of 1S. What should
I have done opposite partners' fourth suit forcing bid?
Thanks
Adam

Your partner passed 3C? Your partnership has a very odd way of playing 4sf. I play it as gf. Even not playing it as gf surely the 4th suit bidder promises another bid. I think 3C is fine and I think yur partner needs to read some books. Rather than 4th suit forcing, your partner has an obvious 2NT bid anyway.

I prefer to play FSF as game forcing, but some people in my bridge
circles only play it as one round forcing (unless the FSF is made at the
three level). My partner said he didn't fancy bidding 2NT because he
thought Kxx was an inadequate stop (I think he would have preferred a
double stop). Since in the bidding I could still have a 12 count, we may
not have nine tricks when the defence knock out the DK.

You must choose a flawed bid instead of fsf. Just not a terrible one.

Carl

[arsivci]

Post by Adam Lea
AQTx
K
xxx
AKQxx
I opened 1C, partner responded 1H, I had a think and decided that it
wasn't quite worth a 2S rebid so I rebid 1S. Partner now bid 2D FSF and
now I find myself endplayed in the bidding. I know we must have a game
on but can't think of a response to show my strength whilst still
leaving 3NT as an option. I responded 3C hoping partner would find
another bid but it got passed out.
Partner puts down something like this (can't remember exactly, I know it
Kx
AJ9xx
Kxx
Txxx
I ended up making 12 tricks for a complete bottom, 3NT is cold at least
if played by partner. Should I have re-bid 2S instead of 1S. What should
I have done opposite partners' fourth suit forcing bid?
Thanks
Adam

First off, I do not agree with your partner's 2D when there is a natural
and descriptive bid of 2NT available.

Second, I would bid 3D instead of 3C, which, I believe describes your
hand more or less accurately.

peace,
t.

[f***@googlemail.com]

Post by Adam Lea
AQTx
K
xxx
AKQxx
I opened 1C, partner responded 1H, I had a think and decided that it
wasn't quite worth a 2S rebid so I rebid 1S. Partner now bid 2D FSF and
now I find myself endplayed in the bidding. I know we must have a game
on but can't think of a response to show my strength whilst still
leaving 3NT as an option. I responded 3C hoping partner would find
another bid but it got passed out.
Partner puts down something like this (can't remember exactly, I know it
Kx
AJ9xx
Kxx
Txxx
I ended up making 12 tricks for a complete bottom, 3NT is cold at least
if played by partner. Should I have re-bid 2S instead of 1S. What should
I have done opposite partners' fourth suit forcing bid?
Thanks
Adam

In a style where FSF is not game forcing (which I play in one partnership), 2D on your partner's hand is absolutely fine. He can pass a 2H preference, and pass 2NT showing a minimum 4135, which is more likely to be right-sided.

Playing an Acol-style system, one alternative to 2D is not 2NT over 1S, which is horrible, but 3C. Opener has promised 5 clubs and clubs is very likely to play better than 2NT is partner passes (where do you want to play opposite AQxx x xxx KQJxx?)

If 2D is not FSF, you have a 'book' bid on your hand: raise 2D to 3D. This shows extra values (game forcing) but nothing suitable to bid. It may have no diamond stop, or it may have a lot of high cards and suggest NT is better played by partner (e.g. partner has Axx and you have Qxx). Partner could just bid 3NT over that, but is actually rather too good: 7C has play opposite opposite Axxx K Axx AKxxx

Whether or not partner is right to pass 3C depends a bit on your style of opening bid, but it's not an insane thing to do at matchpoints. Sequences after a non-game forcing fourth suit can get a bit messy.

[[e-mail]]

Post by f***@googlemail.com
If 2D is not FSF, you have a 'book' bid on your hand: raise 2D to 3D. This shows extra values (game forcing) but nothing suitable to bid. It may have no diamond stop, or it may have a lot of high cards and suggest NT is better played by partner (e.g. partner has Axx and you have Qxx).

Which book is that? Those I know says it promises 4-card.

Carl

[Co Wiersma]

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by Adam Lea
AQTx
K
xxx
AKQxx
I opened 1C, partner responded 1H, I had a think and decided that it
wasn't quite worth a 2S rebid so I rebid 1S. Partner now bid 2D FSF and
now I find myself endplayed in the bidding. I know we must have a game
on but can't think of a response to show my strength whilst still
leaving 3NT as an option. I responded 3C hoping partner would find
another bid but it got passed out.
Partner puts down something like this (can't remember exactly, I know it
Kx
AJ9xx
Kxx
Txxx
I ended up making 12 tricks for a complete bottom, 3NT is cold at least
if played by partner. Should I have re-bid 2S instead of 1S. What should
I have done opposite partners' fourth suit forcing bid?
Thanks
Adam

In a style where FSF is not game forcing (which I play in one partnership), 2D on your partner's hand is absolutely fine. He can pass a 2H preference, and pass 2NT showing a minimum 4135, which is more likely to be right-sided.
Playing an Acol-style system, one alternative to 2D is not 2NT over 1S, which is horrible, but 3C. Opener has promised 5 clubs and clubs is very likely to play better than 2NT is partner passes (where do you want to play opposite AQxx x xxx KQJxx?)
If 2D is not FSF, you have a 'book' bid on your hand: raise 2D to 3D. This shows extra values (game forcing) but nothing suitable to bid. It may have no diamond stop, or it may have a lot of high cards and suggest NT is better played by partner (e.g. partner has Axx and you have Qxx). Partner could just bid 3NT over that, but is actually rather too good: 7C has play opposite opposite Axxx K Axx AKxxx
Whether or not partner is right to pass 3C depends a bit on your style of opening bid, but it's not an insane thing to do at matchpoints. Sequences after a non-game forcing fourth suit can get a bit messy.

There is an option that I read in a book by former worldchampion Berry
Westra
And that is that the respond to fsf can be passed as long as its not on
the 3 level
So then a 2H respond can be passed , but a 3C respond can not.

Co Wiersma

[t***@att.net]

Seems that Responder, after 1C-1H, 1S has a terrific hand for Clubs. Opener should be either 4xx5 or 4xx4 and Responder can cover 2 Spade losers (or get 2 discards.) I'd bid 3C.

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by Adam Lea
AQTx
K
xxx
AKQxx
I opened 1C, partner responded 1H, I had a think and decided that it
wasn't quite worth a 2S rebid so I rebid 1S. Partner now bid 2D FSF and
now I find myself endplayed in the bidding. I know we must have a game
on but can't think of a response to show my strength whilst still
leaving 3NT as an option. I responded 3C hoping partner would find
another bid but it got passed out.
Partner puts down something like this (can't remember exactly, I know it
Kx
AJ9xx
Kxx
Txxx
I ended up making 12 tricks for a complete bottom, 3NT is cold at least
if played by partner. Should I have re-bid 2S instead of 1S. What should
I have done opposite partners' fourth suit forcing bid?
Thanks
Adam

Your partner should bid 3C instead of 2D with this hand showing the
point count and fit leaving you to continue with 3D on hands where 3N
might be a sensible spot or 3H if you have some heart support.

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by Lorne Anderson

Post by Adam Lea
AQTx
K
xxx
AKQxx
I opened 1C, partner responded 1H, I had a think and decided that it
wasn't quite worth a 2S rebid so I rebid 1S. Partner now bid 2D FSF and
now I find myself endplayed in the bidding. I know we must have a game
on but can't think of a response to show my strength whilst still
leaving 3NT as an option. I responded 3C hoping partner would find
another bid but it got passed out.
Partner puts down something like this (can't remember exactly, I know it
Kx
AJ9xx
Kxx
Txxx
I ended up making 12 tricks for a complete bottom, 3NT is cold at least
if played by partner. Should I have re-bid 2S instead of 1S. What should
I have done opposite partners' fourth suit forcing bid?
Thanks
Adam

Your partner should bid 3C instead of 2D with this hand showing the
point count and fit leaving you to continue with 3D on hands where 3N
might be a sensible spot or 3H if you have some heart support.

I agree with this.

doug

[Will in New Haven]

Post by Adam Lea
AQTx
K
xxx
AKQxx
I opened 1C, partner responded 1H, I had a think and decided that it
wasn't quite worth a 2S rebid so I rebid 1S. Partner now bid 2D FSF and
now I find myself endplayed in the bidding. I know we must have a game
on but can't think of a response to show my strength whilst still
leaving 3NT as an option. I responded 3C hoping partner would find
another bid but it got passed out.
Partner puts down something like this (can't remember exactly, I know it
Kx
AJ9xx
Kxx
Txxx
I ended up making 12 tricks for a complete bottom, 3NT is cold at least
if played by partner. Should I have re-bid 2S instead of 1S. What should
I have done opposite partners' fourth suit forcing bid?

It looks as if partner passed a forcing bid (because 4SF usually promises another bid when short of game, even if it isn't game-forcing) but I think the problem starts earlier. I like 3C by partner instead of 2D unless that is game-forcing. Over 2D, as it went, you could bid 3D.

[Adam Lea]

Having read the helpful respnses, I like the suggestion of bidding 3D
opposite the fsf. I did think about that at the time but decided against
it in case partner thought I was 4045, however I now realise that
doesn't matter, and it makes sense to show a 4135 hand with 3D, leaing
partner to bid 3NT with the stop.

[p***@infi.net]

Post by Adam Lea
AQTx
K
xxx
AKQxx
I opened 1C, partner responded 1H, I had a think and decided that it
wasn't quite worth a 2S rebid so I rebid 1S. Partner now bid 2D FSF and
now I find myself endplayed in the bidding. I know we must have a game
on but can't think of a response to show my strength whilst still
leaving 3NT as an option. I responded 3C hoping partner would find
another bid but it got passed out.
Partner puts down something like this (can't remember exactly, I know it
Kx
AJ9xx
Kxx
Txxx
I ended up making 12 tricks for a complete bottom, 3NT is cold at least
if played by partner. Should I have re-bid 2S instead of 1S. What should
I have done opposite partners' fourth suit forcing bid?
Thanks
Adam

Playing fourth suit forcing but not to game, you need to be clear about the strength it shows, and what bids by opener are forcing. My ancient Reese and Dormer text gives these sensible rules:

(1) The 4th suit is at least as strong as a 2NT rebid, clearly inviting game.
(2) With extra values, opener should bid game, make a jump rebid, or raise the fourth suit.

I usually expect 11+ hcp for the fourth suit bid. Make sure your partner agrees about the strength and agrees that the raise, in particular, is forcing, as that is often the only way to land sensibly in 3NT, not to mention actually finding a fit there.

As opener, you could be an Ace or King weaker and still want to force to game, so the problem was not fundamentally with 1S versus 2S. Partner might have two small diamonds: KJx AQJxx xx xxx . Then I suppose he could continue with 3S.