1NT-P-P-2C; P-P-?

[dfm]

Partner opens 1NT (15-17, if it matters).
RHO passes, and so do you, but LHO balances.
Pass pass back to you. What are your agreements?

For example:

1NT P P 2C
P P ?

Is double penalty or takeout? Or if you play double as Stayman over a direct 2C overcall, is it Stayman here also?

If you play lebensohl over a direct overcall, is 2NT here lebensohl, or to play?

If you play systems on over a direct 2C overcall, is 2D natural here, or a transfer to 2H?

Etc.

[ais523]

Post by dfm
Partner opens 1NT (15-17, if it matters).
RHO passes, and so do you, but LHO balances.
Pass pass back to you. What are your agreements?
1NT P P 2C
P P ?
Is double penalty or takeout? Or if you play double as Stayman over a direct 2C overcall, is it Stayman here also?
If you play lebensohl over a direct overcall, is 2NT here lebensohl, or to play?
If you play systems on over a direct 2C overcall, is 2D natural here, or a transfer to 2H?
Etc.

If I were playing systems on, I'd play it as on even in this situation.
It's important to be consistent in what your bids mean, or your partner
will never understand them. As such, double would be Stayman in a
system like that.

However, I typically play systems off when the opponents overcall. That
implies that double is not Stayman. Penalty seems unlikely from context,
too. I'd interpret it as "takeout shape", and not enough strength for
game, but enough to want to compete at the two level, and asking the 1NT
opener to pick one of their longer suits to compete in. (This would be
especially true if the agreement for the 1NT bid allows a 5-card major
or if it allows weird shapes like 5422.)

Given that making that double would be risky if the partnership is weak,
as there's no guarantee of a fit, the double is presumably showing the
balance of power on the hand. That means that after a double, 2NT is
viable with no long suit (if clubs are properly stopped by the opener;
the responder is probably denying a club stopper here), and a penalty
pass is also a valid option if the opener happens to be long in clubs.

I don't currently play Lebensohl specifically because it can be very
hard to figure out whether it's on or not in unusual auctions! So I've
made a conscious choice not to worry about whether it's on or not in
this auction.

[Mick Heins]

Post by dfm
Partner opens 1NT (15-17, if it matters).
RHO passes, and so do you, but LHO balances.
Pass pass back to you. What are your agreements?
1NT P P 2C
P P ?
Is double penalty or takeout? Or if you play double as Stayman over a
direct 2C overcall, is it Stayman here also?

I don't think it makes sense to play systems on. You didn't transfer
before, why would you ever want to do so now?

Double I would play as takeout-oriented but showing values. 2D should
be natural, 2H tends to show the majors at least 3-4, opener should
convert to 2S with doubleton heart and 4 spades. 2S would be a four card suit.

Post by dfm
If you play lebensohl over a direct overcall, is 2NT here lebensohl, or to play?
If you play systems on over a direct 2C overcall, is 2D natural here, or a transfer to 2H?

I say all is natural. You have no forcing option, so Lebensohl doesn't make much
sense.

Double should be values, say 6-8 points, and can be converted by
the opener.

[Lorne]

Post by dfm
Partner opens 1NT (15-17, if it matters).
RHO passes, and so do you, but LHO balances.
Pass pass back to you. What are your agreements?
1NT P P 2C
P P ?
Is double penalty or takeout? Or if you play double as Stayman over a direct 2C overcall, is it Stayman here also?
If you play lebensohl over a direct overcall, is 2NT here lebensohl, or to play?
If you play systems on over a direct 2C overcall, is 2D natural here, or a transfer to 2H?
Etc.

It makes no sense to let your agreements ove a diredt overcall affect
this position as you have already denied most of the hands that want to
act over a direct overcal. For me I have already denied a 5 card major
or values to invite so the only time I want to bid will be weak with 4-4
majors or 4-3 + 4 diamonds (so double = T/O) or 1 point short of an
invite with a stop and the oppo not vul when I want to play 2N and hope
it makes for a better score than beating them by 1 or 2.

[ais523]

Post by Lorne

Post by dfm
Partner opens 1NT (15-17, if it matters).
RHO passes, and so do you, but LHO balances.
Pass pass back to you. What are your agreements?
1NT P P 2C
P P ?
Is double penalty or takeout? Or if you play double as Stayman over a direct 2C overcall, is it Stayman here also?
If you play lebensohl over a direct overcall, is 2NT here lebensohl, or to play?
If you play systems on over a direct 2C overcall, is 2D natural here, or a transfer to 2H?
Etc.

It makes no sense to let your agreements ove a diredt overcall affect
this position as you have already denied most of the hands that want to
act over a direct overcal. For me I have already denied a 5 card major
or values to invite so the only time I want to bid will be weak with 4-4
majors or 4-3 + 4 diamonds (so double = T/O) or 1 point short of an
invite with a stop and the oppo not vul when I want to play 2N and hope
it makes for a better score than beating them by 1 or 2.

Well, there are plenty of hands you could have that would prefer 1NT
over 2-level contracts, but 2-level contracts over an opponent's 2C. For
example, if you have something like 6 HCP and a club stop, 2NT over
1NT would be pretty much unthinkable, but 2NT over a 2C balance seems a
lot more viable. Similarly, if you have six small diamonds and a side
Ace, 1NT is likely to be a better contract than 2D (which you couldn't
easily bid directly over 1NT anyway, as it'd be misinterpreted as a
transfer; 3D would be too high outside competition), but 2D is almost
certainly going to be better than letting the opponents play in 2C.

You also haven't denied a 4-card major yet. You've denied a 5-card
major, but if you have 4 hearts with less than invitational values, you
wouldn't have had a bid to show them (a transfer might end up in a
4-2 fit, and Stayman might end up in spades), and so 1NT would be the
best place to play.

[Mick Heins]

Post by ais523

Post by Lorne

Post by dfm
Partner opens 1NT (15-17, if it matters).
RHO passes, and so do you, but LHO balances.
Pass pass back to you. What are your agreements?
1NT P P 2C
P P ?
Is double penalty or takeout? Or if you play double as Stayman over a direct 2C overcall, is it Stayman here also?
If you play lebensohl over a direct overcall, is 2NT here lebensohl, or to play?
If you play systems on over a direct 2C overcall, is 2D natural here, or a transfer to 2H?
Etc.

It makes no sense to let your agreements ove a diredt overcall affect
this position as you have already denied most of the hands that want to
act over a direct overcal. For me I have already denied a 5 card major
or values to invite so the only time I want to bid will be weak with 4-4
majors or 4-3 + 4 diamonds (so double = T/O) or 1 point short of an
invite with a stop and the oppo not vul when I want to play 2N and hope
it makes for a better score than beating them by 1 or 2.

Well, there are plenty of hands you could have that would prefer 1NT
over 2-level contracts, but 2-level contracts over an opponent's 2C.

What does that have to do with having your agreements be the same
as over a direct overcall?

Post by ais523
For
example, if you have something like 6 HCP and a club stop, 2NT over
1NT would be pretty much unthinkable, but 2NT over a 2C balance seems a
lot more viable.

Which is what anyone would play in this situation.

Post by ais523
Similarly, if you have six small diamonds and a side
Ace, 1NT is likely to be a better contract than 2D

Doubtful.

Post by ais523
(which you couldn't
easily bid directly over 1NT anyway, as it'd be misinterpreted as a
transfer; 3D would be too high outside competition), but 2D is almost
certainly going to be better than letting the opponents play in 2C.

I agree. That's why you don't have 2D be a transfer to hearts.

Post by ais523
You also haven't denied a 4-card major yet. You've denied a 5-card
major, but if you have 4 hearts with less than invitational values, you
wouldn't have had a bid to show them (a transfer might end up in a
4-2 fit, and Stayman might end up in spades), and so 1NT would be the
best place to play.

I guess I don't understand what you are saying. You seem to be agreeing
and disagreeing at the same time.

[ais523]

Post by Mick Heins

Post by ais523

Post by Lorne

Post by dfm
Partner opens 1NT (15-17, if it matters).
RHO passes, and so do you, but LHO balances.
Pass pass back to you. What are your agreements?

[snip]

Post by Mick Heins

Post by ais523

Post by Lorne
It makes no sense to let your agreements ove a diredt overcall affect
this position as you have already denied most of the hands that want to
act over a direct overcal. For me I have already denied a 5 card major
or values to invite so the only time I want to bid will be weak with 4-4
majors or 4-3 + 4 diamonds (so double = T/O) or 1 point short of an
invite with a stop and the oppo not vul when I want to play 2N and hope
it makes for a better score than beating them by 1 or 2.

Well, there are plenty of hands you could have that would prefer 1NT
over 2-level contracts, but 2-level contracts over an opponent's 2C.

What does that have to do with having your agreements be the same
as over a direct overcall?

I'm challenging "the only time I want to bid". There are more hands
which would want to bid here than you're suggesting.

Post by Mick Heins

Post by ais523
You also haven't denied a 4-card major yet. You've denied a 5-card
major, but if you have 4 hearts with less than invitational values, you
wouldn't have had a bid to show them (a transfer might end up in a
4-2 fit, and Stayman might end up in spades), and so 1NT would be the
best place to play.

I guess I don't understand what you are saying. You seem to be agreeing
and disagreeing at the same time.

I'm agreeing with the general concept but disagreeing with some of the
details. For example, earlier you said you'd denied a 4-card major;
however, you haven't really, you could still hold 4 hearts (maybe even 4
spades).

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there's quite a wide range
of hands which wouldn't or couldn't act over 1NT but which would want to
act once the opponent has called 2C. So acting is more commonly correct
than your post implies. On the other hand, we mostly agree about the
sorts of hand that would want to act, and on what implication that holds
for a bidding system (i.e. that bids should be natural and shouldn't
resemble typical 1NT responses).

[Mick Heins]

Post by ais523

Post by Mick Heins

Post by ais523

Post by Lorne

Post by dfm
Partner opens 1NT (15-17, if it matters).
RHO passes, and so do you, but LHO balances.
Pass pass back to you. What are your agreements?

[snip]

Post by Mick Heins

Post by ais523

Post by Lorne
It makes no sense to let your agreements ove a diredt overcall affect
this position as you have already denied most of the hands that want to
act over a direct overcal. For me I have already denied a 5 card major
or values to invite so the only time I want to bid will be weak with 4-4
majors or 4-3 + 4 diamonds (so double = T/O) or 1 point short of an
invite with a stop and the oppo not vul when I want to play 2N and hope
it makes for a better score than beating them by 1 or 2.

Well, there are plenty of hands you could have that would prefer 1NT
over 2-level contracts, but 2-level contracts over an opponent's 2C.

What does that have to do with having your agreements be the same
as over a direct overcall?

I'm challenging "the only time I want to bid". There are more hands
which would want to bid here than you're suggesting.

Post by Mick Heins

Post by ais523
You also haven't denied a 4-card major yet. You've denied a 5-card
major, but if you have 4 hearts with less than invitational values, you
wouldn't have had a bid to show them (a transfer might end up in a
4-2 fit, and Stayman might end up in spades), and so 1NT would be the
best place to play.

I guess I don't understand what you are saying. You seem to be agreeing
and disagreeing at the same time.

I'm agreeing with the general concept but disagreeing with some of the
details. For example, earlier you said you'd denied a 4-card major;
however, you haven't really, you could still hold 4 hearts (maybe even 4
spades).

That wasn't me talking, but I see the poster saying they denied a 5-card
major. I tend to agree that you probably don't want to act unless you have
1) long diamonds or 2) have a 4 card spade suit or 3) have 4 hearts and 3
spades.

Post by ais523
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there's quite a wide
rangeof hands which wouldn't or couldn't act over 1NT but which
would want to of hands which wouldn't or couldn't act over 1NT but
which would want to act once the opponent has called 2C. So acting
is more commonly correct than your post implies. On the other hand,
we mostly agree about the sorts of hand that would want to act, and
on what implication that holds for a bidding system (i.e. that bids
should be natural and shouldn't resemble typical 1NT responses).

I dont think we have any real disagreement. There are many hands where
you might want to balance back in, particularly at matchpoints where the
opps are not vulnerable.