Discussion:
disaster number 1
(too old to reply)
a***@yahoo.co.uk
2018-08-12 17:18:46 UTC
Permalink
MPs, Acol system weak NT.

North
6
AQ
QJ87
AQ9542

N E S W
1C 3S X P
?

What do you bid?
ais523
2018-08-12 21:58:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
MPs, Acol system weak NT.
North
6
AQ
QJ87
AQ9542
N E S W
1C 3S X P
?
What do you bid?
South's double here is not completely standardised in Acol, but the most
likely meaning is "takeout but with the understanding that the partner
might have to pass it for penalties anyway if they have no other
reasonable bid". So South likely has hearts, diamonds, and enough
defensive strength to make the bid safe. (Many partnerships will have a
hard rule about penalty vs. takeout to help avoid confusion in this sort
of situation, such as "double of 3S is takeout" or "doubles are takeout
if only two suits have been bid".)

3S is probably making, or at least not going down very far when it's
our hand, so we have to pull the double. It seems fairly likely that
there's game in a minor available here; South surely has 10+ high card
points, and your hand is likely to be a good fit with South's (you're
short in the opponent's suit, the best possible suit to be short in,
and your AQ is likely to be pulling full value opposite your partner's
hearts). Normally playing 5 of a minor is a bad idea at matchpoints
(because your counterparts at other tables are likely scoring better
in 3NT, and thus 6 going down will probably have a comparable score to
5 making), but in this situation it seems likely that 3NT is going
down, and thus 5 of a minor is a viable option here.

The question is as to how to show this to your partner. 3NT would likely
be interpreted as natural, showing a much stronger holding in spades
than we have. 4H and 4S would make it look like you had heart support.
4C and 4D are likely to be treated as signoffs, so the only viable
bids here are 4NT, 5C, 5D. 4NT is clearly the best option here (showing
long clubs plus diamonds), /unless/ your partner is likely to
misinterpret it as Blackwood. (The source for Acol that I checked lists
4NT here as meaning either "two places to play" or "willing to play game
in either minor" - either of which will get us to the right contract -
but with the same cautionary note that I have, that before using this
it's important to make sure that partner knows what it means!)

If you're worried about 4NT being misinterpreted as Blackwood, you
pretty much have to guess between 5C and 5D. I'd guess 5C (I'd rather be
in a 6-1 fit than 4-3 fit based on what I can see in my hand, although
of course it's a guess as I don't know what's in partner's). Of course,
because it's a guess it could well be wrong! (The alternative option is
to just bid 4NT anyway; if it's interpreted as Blackwood you probably
end up in 5 of a minor anyway, not too bad if you had to guess which
minor to be in, and if partner has the other two Aces then perhaps the
resulting slam that you end up in will make.)
--
ais523
Player
2018-11-06 02:50:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by ais523
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
MPs, Acol system weak NT.
North
6
AQ
QJ87
AQ9542
N E S W
1C 3S X P
?
What do you bid?
South's double here is not completely standardised in Acol, but the most
likely meaning is "takeout but with the understanding that the partner
might have to pass it for penalties anyway if they have no other
reasonable bid". So South likely has hearts, diamonds, and enough
defensive strength to make the bid safe. (Many partnerships will have a
hard rule about penalty vs. takeout to help avoid confusion in this sort
of situation, such as "double of 3S is takeout" or "doubles are takeout
if only two suits have been bid".)
3S is probably making, or at least not going down very far when it's
our hand, so we have to pull the double. It seems fairly likely that
there's game in a minor available here; South surely has 10+ high card
points, and your hand is likely to be a good fit with South's (you're
short in the opponent's suit, the best possible suit to be short in,
and your AQ is likely to be pulling full value opposite your partner's
hearts). Normally playing 5 of a minor is a bad idea at matchpoints
(because your counterparts at other tables are likely scoring better
in 3NT, and thus 6 going down will probably have a comparable score to
5 making), but in this situation it seems likely that 3NT is going
down, and thus 5 of a minor is a viable option here.
The question is as to how to show this to your partner. 3NT would likely
be interpreted as natural, showing a much stronger holding in spades
than we have. 4H and 4S would make it look like you had heart support.
4C and 4D are likely to be treated as signoffs, so the only viable
bids here are 4NT, 5C, 5D. 4NT is clearly the best option here (showing
long clubs plus diamonds), /unless/ your partner is likely to
misinterpret it as Blackwood. (The source for Acol that I checked lists
4NT here as meaning either "two places to play" or "willing to play game
in either minor" - either of which will get us to the right contract -
but with the same cautionary note that I have, that before using this
it's important to make sure that partner knows what it means!)
If you're worried about 4NT being misinterpreted as Blackwood, you
pretty much have to guess between 5C and 5D. I'd guess 5C (I'd rather be
in a 6-1 fit than 4-3 fit based on what I can see in my hand, although
of course it's a guess as I don't know what's in partner's). Of course,
because it's a guess it could well be wrong! (The alternative option is
to just bid 4NT anyway; if it's interpreted as Blackwood you probably
end up in 5 of a minor anyway, not too bad if you had to guess which
minor to be in, and if partner has the other two Aces then perhaps the
resulting slam that you end up in will make.)
--
ais523
This has nothing whatsoever to do with Acol. A sputnik double is for takeout; the level you play it is for partnership discussion. We play it to 6H.
KWSchneider
2018-08-12 23:09:39 UTC
Permalink
4D
t***@att.net
2018-08-13 01:27:52 UTC
Permalink
Without prior discussion, I'd say that either 4D or 4C are the only forward going bids. The games (3NT, 5C, 5D, 4H) are not forcing (even 4H as that's the only way to get to the Heart game at a low level.) 4NT sounds like a strong NT, 4S sounds like a slam try. The best approach should be 4D. South is probably strong in Hearts and Diamonds; it's probably better to support Diamonds than to insist on Clubs. This kicks the ball back to South. North has shown 5+Clubs and 4+Diamonds and a reasonable hand. I'm guessing the Double didn't show super long Hearts or Diamonds (which could have been bid.) It doesn't seem to be primarily penalty without discussion so I'll bid what I haven't shown.
ais523
2018-08-13 02:15:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@att.net
Without prior discussion, I'd say that either 4D or 4C are the only
forward going bids. The games (3NT, 5C, 5D, 4H) are not forcing (even
4H as that's the only way to get to the Heart game at a low level.)
4NT sounds like a strong NT, 4S sounds like a slam try. The best
approach should be 4D. South is probably strong in Hearts and
Diamonds; it's probably better to support Diamonds than to insist on
Clubs. This kicks the ball back to South. North has shown 5+Clubs and
4+Diamonds and a reasonable hand. I'm guessing the Double didn't show
super long Hearts or Diamonds (which could have been bid.) It doesn't
seem to be primarily penalty without discussion so I'll bid what I
haven't shown.
Surely the bid that shows a strong NT after 1C (Acol), (3S), X is 3NT?

I don't think 4C/4D can be forward going as an opener with a minimum
will need to stop short of game (that X surely can't be guaranteeing
the equivalent of around 16 HCP opposite an opening bid, which is what
you'd need for a game force; Acol openings can be pretty light). A
takeout double is asking for a suit, and a minimum response normally
wants to play there. 4S is obviously forcing and (at least to me!) 4NT
is obviously artificial (although which artificial meaning it has may
be unclear, especially if undiscussed), but I think the only forcing
bids here are 4S, 4NT, 5S, 5NT, and 6S.
--
ais523
Elims
2018-08-13 05:07:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
MPs, Acol system weak NT.
North
6
AQ
QJ87
AQ9542
N E S W
1C 3S X P
?
What do you bid?
4D
Lorne
2018-08-13 23:29:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
MPs, Acol system weak NT.
North
6
AQ
QJ87
AQ9542
N E S W
1C 3S X P
?
What do you bid?
I want to be in game so I bid 4N if partner is likely to read that as
showing diamonds with long clubs. If I am not confident about how
partner will read 4N I will bid 4S.
f***@googlemail.com
2018-08-14 16:48:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
MPs, Acol system weak NT.
North
6
AQ
QJ87
AQ9542
N E S W
1C 3S X P
?
What do you bid?
I don't bid 4NT, which shows a strong balanced hand.
Playing a weak NT, I would bid 3NT here with

Kxx
xx
Ax
AQJxxx

or a strong NT such as

KJx
Axx
Kxx
Axxx

(whether I pass or bid 3NT on that hand may depend on vulnerability).

But I have to have some way of showing a strong hand. I would bid 4NT with a balanced 18-count, or with a strong hand with long clubs that had been planning to jump to 3NT opposite a normal response.
a***@yahoo.co.uk
2018-08-14 22:51:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
MPs, Acol system weak NT.
North
6
AQ
QJ87
AQ9542
N E S W
1C 3S X P
?
What do you bid?
I ended up taking a wild (stupid) punt and got punished for it. I thought about bidding 4NT to show two places to play, but as this was a scratch partnership, was not confident partner would take it as meaning this. I thought about bidding 4S, but after a 5H response would be no wiser, would probably have to pass and hope it will come in on the likely 7 card fit. I decided that partner was odds on to hold a diamond suit, held four or five hearts, some tolerance in clubs and little or nothing in spades, so I tried 6D which wasn't a success.

Parther held Q2 KJT732 9 KJ86 and corrected to 7C which went one down. Not a bottom, as one pair decided to defend 3SX which made. A club contract should be held to 11 tricks with two aces missing but someone managed to go two off. Everyone else was in 4 or 5H making 11 tricks.
Derek Turner
2018-08-16 15:18:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Parther held Q2 KJT732 9 KJ86 and corrected to 7C which went one down. Not a bottom, as one pair decided to defend 3SX which made. A club contract should be held to 11 tricks with two aces missing but someone managed to go two off. Everyone else was in 4 or 5H making 11 tricks.
So partner chose neither to show his club support nor bid his six-card
suit and you blame yourself?
Kenny McCormack
2018-08-17 12:19:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Derek Turner
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Parther held Q2 KJT732 9 KJ86 and corrected to 7C which went one
down. Not a bottom, as one pair decided to defend 3SX which made. A
club contract should be held to 11 tricks with two aces missing but
someone managed to go two off. Everyone else was in 4 or 5H making 11
tricks.
So partner chose neither to show his club support nor bid his six-card
suit and you blame yourself?
I think that 4D would have been a much better call than 6D. 4D has to be
forcing, so it would get you to 6 (if that was the right spot) just as well
as blasting 6 would have. Meanwhile, in the instant case, pd would have
bid 4H (over 4D) and all would be well.

Many posters suggested 4D as the answer to the original question - and I
think they are right.
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
in the real world."

- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden -
Player
2018-11-06 02:53:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenny McCormack
Post by Derek Turner
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Parther held Q2 KJT732 9 KJ86 and corrected to 7C which went one
down. Not a bottom, as one pair decided to defend 3SX which made. A
club contract should be held to 11 tricks with two aces missing but
someone managed to go two off. Everyone else was in 4 or 5H making 11
tricks.
So partner chose neither to show his club support nor bid his six-card
suit and you blame yourself?
I think that 4D would have been a much better call than 6D. 4D has to be
forcing, so it would get you to 6 (if that was the right spot) just as well
as blasting 6 would have. Meanwhile, in the instant case, pd would have
bid 4H (over 4D) and all would be well.
Many posters suggested 4D as the answer to the original question - and I
think they are right.
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
in the real world."
- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden -
4D is NOT forcing of course.
d***@pointerstop.ca
2018-11-06 16:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Player
4D is NOT forcing of course.
Of course it is. Opponents have shown weakness and you are limited only by virtue of not starting with 2C or 2D (depending on your version of Acol), while your partner has shown what must be game values if your hand is at the upper end.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2018-11-08 13:26:30 UTC
Permalink
it is suicidal for the unproved weakness of the opponents to define the forcing quality of your bids.

They are NOT there to help you.

Carl
d***@pointerstop.ca
2018-11-08 16:11:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
it is suicidal for the unproved weakness of the opponents to define the forcing quality of your bids.
They are NOT there to help you.
Not half as suicidal as ignoring the fact that you have game-going values, or jumping to slam because you think you have _more_ than game-going values.

Sure, you don't know that your opponent is really weak, but if you're not treating 4D as forcing, you're not trusting your partner. I don't have to trust my opponents; I _do_ have to trust my partner.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2018-11-08 20:17:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by ***@verizon.net
it is suicidal for the unproved weakness of the opponents to define the forcing quality of your bids.
They are NOT there to help you.
Not half as suicidal as ignoring the fact that you have game-going values, or jumping to slam because you think you have _more_ than game-going values.
Sure, you don't know that your opponent is really weak, but if you're not treating 4D as forcing, you're not trusting your partner. I don't have to trust my opponents; I _do_ have to trust my partner.
Do you *really* trust your partner's double of 3S to be forcing to game? Really really? Have you discussed it?

Carl
Co Wiersma
2018-11-08 23:35:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by ***@verizon.net
it is suicidal for the unproved weakness of the opponents to define the forcing quality of your bids.
They are NOT there to help you.
Not half as suicidal as ignoring the fact that you have game-going values, or jumping to slam because you think you have _more_ than game-going values.
Sure, you don't know that your opponent is really weak, but if you're not treating 4D as forcing, you're not trusting your partner. I don't have to trust my opponents; I _do_ have to trust my partner.
Do you *really* trust your partner's double of 3S to be forcing to game? Really really? Have you discussed it?
Carl
Even if double is not forcing to game
reverse on the 4-level is absolutely forcing to game!

Co Wiersma
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2018-11-09 09:00:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Co Wiersma
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by ***@verizon.net
it is suicidal for the unproved weakness of the opponents to define the forcing quality of your bids.
They are NOT there to help you.
Not half as suicidal as ignoring the fact that you have game-going values, or jumping to slam because you think you have _more_ than game-going values.
Sure, you don't know that your opponent is really weak, but if you're not treating 4D as forcing, you're not trusting your partner. I don't have to trust my opponents; I _do_ have to trust my partner.
Do you *really* trust your partner's double of 3S to be forcing to game? Really really? Have you discussed it?
Carl
Even if double is not forcing to game
reverse on the 4-level is absolutely forcing to game!
Co Wiersma
Not "absolutely." 1C - (3S) - P - (P) ; 4D can't be.

The negative double instead of pass, says "maybe we can make a 4-level," not "maybe we can make a 5-level."

Carl
Co Wiersma
2018-11-09 15:52:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Co Wiersma
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by ***@verizon.net
it is suicidal for the unproved weakness of the opponents to define the forcing quality of your bids.
They are NOT there to help you.
Not half as suicidal as ignoring the fact that you have game-going values, or jumping to slam because you think you have _more_ than game-going values.
Sure, you don't know that your opponent is really weak, but if you're not treating 4D as forcing, you're not trusting your partner. I don't have to trust my opponents; I _do_ have to trust my partner.
Do you *really* trust your partner's double of 3S to be forcing to game? Really really? Have you discussed it?
Carl
Even if double is not forcing to game
reverse on the 4-level is absolutely forcing to game!
Co Wiersma
Not "absolutely." 1C - (3S) - P - (P) ; 4D can't be.
The negative double instead of pass, says "maybe we can make a 4-level," not "maybe we can make a 5-level."
Carl
But if you not have a diamond fit
you will end up in game

So why force to game without a trump-fit
And stay out of game when have a 8-card-fit?

Co Wiersma
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2018-11-10 01:13:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Co Wiersma
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Co Wiersma
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by ***@verizon.net
it is suicidal for the unproved weakness of the opponents to define the forcing quality of your bids.
They are NOT there to help you.
Not half as suicidal as ignoring the fact that you have game-going values, or jumping to slam because you think you have _more_ than game-going values.
Sure, you don't know that your opponent is really weak, but if you're not treating 4D as forcing, you're not trusting your partner. I don't have to trust my opponents; I _do_ have to trust my partner.
Do you *really* trust your partner's double of 3S to be forcing to game? Really really? Have you discussed it?
Carl
Even if double is not forcing to game
reverse on the 4-level is absolutely forcing to game!
Co Wiersma
Not "absolutely." 1C - (3S) - P - (P) ; 4D can't be.
The negative double instead of pass, says "maybe we can make a 4-level," not "maybe we can make a 5-level."
Carl
But if you not have a diamond fit
you will end up in game
So why force to game without a trump-fit
And stay out of game when have a 8-card-fit?
Co Wiersma
So you will bid game with no fit and hope to avoid double????

That is what you said. What did you really mean?

Carl
Co Wiersma
2018-11-10 02:49:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Co Wiersma
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Co Wiersma
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by ***@verizon.net
it is suicidal for the unproved weakness of the opponents to define the forcing quality of your bids.
They are NOT there to help you.
Not half as suicidal as ignoring the fact that you have game-going values, or jumping to slam because you think you have _more_ than game-going values.
Sure, you don't know that your opponent is really weak, but if you're not treating 4D as forcing, you're not trusting your partner. I don't have to trust my opponents; I _do_ have to trust my partner.
Do you *really* trust your partner's double of 3S to be forcing to game? Really really? Have you discussed it?
Carl
Even if double is not forcing to game
reverse on the 4-level is absolutely forcing to game!
Co Wiersma
Not "absolutely." 1C - (3S) - P - (P) ; 4D can't be.
The negative double instead of pass, says "maybe we can make a 4-level," not "maybe we can make a 5-level."
Carl
But if you not have a diamond fit
you will end up in game
So why force to game without a trump-fit
And stay out of game when have a 8-card-fit?
Co Wiersma
So you will bid game with no fit and hope to avoid double????
That is what you said. What did you really mean?
Carl
No, that is what you said as far as I can see
Or at least what you propose is to play a partscore with a (diamond) fit
and bit game without fit
And I think that makes no sense



Co Wiersma
ais523
2018-11-12 02:02:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Not "absolutely." 1C - (3S) - P - (P) ; 4D can't be.
I belive many systems would interpret 4D here as forcing, assuming that
1C is ostensibly natural (i.e. implies better clubs than diamonds). In
such a case, bidding 4D here says that you're willing to play 5C,
because you'd want your partner to correct to clubs if their clubs are
also better than their diamonds. So if you're willing to play 5C,
wouldn't you also be willing to play 5D if your partner turns out to
have a diamond fit?

This sort of reasoning leads most natural systems to define reverses as
forcing up to and including the six level (at the seven level, you can't
correct back to the first suit, so the reasoning doesn't apply).

Now I'm curious: given that you're treating 4D here as non-forcing, what
sort of hands would you envisage opener to have to bid it, and what
sort of hands would responder pass with?
--
ais523
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2018-11-12 18:20:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by ais523
Post by ***@verizon.net
Not "absolutely." 1C - (3S) - P - (P) ; 4D can't be.
I belive many systems would interpret 4D here as forcing, assuming that
1C is ostensibly natural (i.e. implies better clubs than diamonds). In
such a case, bidding 4D here says that you're willing to play 5C,
because you'd want your partner to correct to clubs if their clubs are
also better than their diamonds. So if you're willing to play 5C,
wouldn't you also be willing to play 5D if your partner turns out to
have a diamond fit?
This sort of reasoning leads most natural systems to define reverses as
forcing up to and including the six level (at the seven level, you can't
correct back to the first suit, so the reasoning doesn't apply).
Now I'm curious: given that you're treating 4D here as non-forcing, what
sort of hands would you envisage opener to have to bid it, and what
sort of hands would responder pass with?
--
ais523
Opener:

xx
Kx
KQxx
KJxxx

Responder:

xx
AJxxx
Axxx
Qx

Carl
ais523
2018-11-12 19:45:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by ais523
Post by ***@verizon.net
Not "absolutely." 1C - (3S) - P - (P) ; 4D can't be.
[snip]
Post by ais523
Now I'm curious: given that you're treating 4D here as non-forcing, what
sort of hands would you envisage opener to have to bid it, and what
sort of hands would responder pass with?
xx
Kx
KQxx
KJxxx
xx
AJxxx
Axxx
Qx
This seems pretty risky as systems go; there's no reason to expect the
responder to have a hand as good as that (and I'd be tempted to double
as responder there, although I don't disagree with the pass). The
responder could well be much weaker without the bidding being any
different, and even though 3S would likely be making in that case,
pulling to 4D is likely to get a worse minus score (and there's no
guarantee that responder has diamonds!)

In general, I'd be very reluctant to unilaterally force our side to the
4 level when I have an 11 HCP 5422 and no guarantee of a fit, even if
the opposing bidding suggests that they don't want to try for game. Even
if they're right, that doesn't mean we can make anything, and if they've
missed a game we definitely want to pass the hand out.
--
ais523
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2018-11-12 21:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by ais523
Post by ais523
Post by ***@verizon.net
Not "absolutely." 1C - (3S) - P - (P) ; 4D can't be.
[snip]
Post by ais523
Now I'm curious: given that you're treating 4D here as non-forcing, what
sort of hands would you envisage opener to have to bid it, and what
sort of hands would responder pass with?
xx
Kx
KQxx
KJxxx
xx
AJxxx
Axxx
Qx
This seems pretty risky as systems go; there's no reason to expect the
responder to have a hand as good as that (and I'd be tempted to double
as responder there, although I don't disagree with the pass). The
responder could well be much weaker without the bidding being any
different, and even though 3S would likely be making in that case,
pulling to 4D is likely to get a worse minus score (and there's no
guarantee that responder has diamonds!)
In general, I'd be very reluctant to unilaterally force our side to the
4 level when I have an 11 HCP 5422 and no guarantee of a fit, even if
the opposing bidding suggests that they don't want to try for game. Even
if they're right, that doesn't mean we can make anything, and if they've
missed a game we definitely want to pass the hand out.
--
ais523
"Responder" is the hand that doubled 3S.

If you expect the negative double to be stronger than that (that is, Roth-Stone opening values), it will be a call that never happens at the table.

If you have a clear agreement that the double shows such enormous strength, then you can't consider anything but 4S with the huge hand you showed. And then bid slam.

It's impossible to reach 7 with any confidence.

Carl
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2018-11-12 21:13:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by ais523
Post by ais523
Post by ***@verizon.net
Not "absolutely." 1C - (3S) - P - (P) ; 4D can't be.
[snip]
Post by ais523
Now I'm curious: given that you're treating 4D here as non-forcing, what
sort of hands would you envisage opener to have to bid it, and what
sort of hands would responder pass with?
xx
Kx
KQxx
KJxxx
xx
AJxxx
Axxx
Qx
This seems pretty risky as systems go; there's no reason to expect the
responder to have a hand as good as that (and I'd be tempted to double
as responder there, although I don't disagree with the pass). The
responder could well be much weaker without the bidding being any
different, and even though 3S would likely be making in that case,
pulling to 4D is likely to get a worse minus score (and there's no
guarantee that responder has diamonds!)
In general, I'd be very reluctant to unilaterally force our side to the
4 level when I have an 11 HCP 5422 and no guarantee of a fit, even if
the opposing bidding suggests that they don't want to try for game. Even
if they're right, that doesn't mean we can make anything, and if they've
missed a game we definitely want to pass the hand out.
--
ais523
Oh I see. You're talking about 1C- (3S) - P - (P) ; 4D

-
xx
KQJTx
KQJTxx

Carl
ais523
2018-11-12 21:44:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by ais523
Post by ais523
Post by ***@verizon.net
Not "absolutely." 1C - (3S) - P - (P) ; 4D can't be.
[snip]
Post by ais523
Now I'm curious: given that you're treating 4D here as non-forcing, what
sort of hands would you envisage opener to have to bid it, and what
sort of hands would responder pass with?
[snip]
Post by ***@verizon.net
Oh I see. You're talking about 1C- (3S) - P - (P) ; 4D
Right. It's clearly reasonable for 4D to be non-forcing after the
double (that's just opener taking a preference to diamonds after
responder has given a choice of suits); it's the situation with the pass
that I was concerned about.
Post by ***@verizon.net
-
xx
KQJTx
KQJTxx
Now that you've posted this I can actually see the bid working, assuming
that the hand is fairly tightly defined. I'm not sure how commonly you'd
actually have a hand like this, though (although the 3S overcall does
make it rather more likely).

Presumably the 4D in this case means "if you have a club fit, we can
make 5C, if you don't have a club fit, diamonds is our best place to
play". So the bid should logically promise six clubs and strong
diamonds.

Whether this is more or less useful than a forcing 4D probably depends
on how strong an opening 1C can be. Add an Ace to the hand you
suggested, and now a forcing 4D is starting to look like the ideal bid
(and yet the hand would still be a 1C opening for many people).
--
ais523
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2018-11-12 21:58:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by ais523
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by ais523
Post by ais523
Post by ***@verizon.net
Not "absolutely." 1C - (3S) - P - (P) ; 4D can't be.
[snip]
Post by ais523
Now I'm curious: given that you're treating 4D here as non-forcing, what
sort of hands would you envisage opener to have to bid it, and what
sort of hands would responder pass with?
[snip]
Post by ***@verizon.net
Oh I see. You're talking about 1C- (3S) - P - (P) ; 4D
Right. It's clearly reasonable for 4D to be non-forcing after the
double (that's just opener taking a preference to diamonds after
responder has given a choice of suits); it's the situation with the pass
that I was concerned about.
Post by ***@verizon.net
-
xx
KQJTx
KQJTxx
Now that you've posted this I can actually see the bid working, assuming
that the hand is fairly tightly defined. I'm not sure how commonly you'd
actually have a hand like this, though (although the 3S overcall does
make it rather more likely).
Presumably the 4D in this case means "if you have a club fit, we can
make 5C, if you don't have a club fit, diamonds is our best place to
play". So the bid should logically promise six clubs and strong
diamonds.
Whether this is more or less useful than a forcing 4D probably depends
on how strong an opening 1C can be. Add an Ace to the hand you
suggested, and now a forcing 4D is starting to look like the ideal bid
(and yet the hand would still be a 1C opening for many people).
--
ais523
Maybe we can't make 5 of anything. But passing it out is more than flesh can bear.

Carl
d***@pointerstop.ca
2018-11-09 09:54:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Do you *really* trust your partner's double of 3S to be forcing to game? Really really? Have you discussed it?
You know very well that I didn't say that. I said that partner knows that if I have a maximum (actually something less than a maximum) for my opening bid, then we have "game values". _I_ know, therefore, that game is on, and will bid 4D which, even with a completely unknown partner, I will assume to be forcing. If that hand doesn't bid 4H after that, we won't be playing again.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2018-11-09 12:52:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by ***@verizon.net
Do you *really* trust your partner's double of 3S to be forcing to game? Really really? Have you discussed it?
You know very well that I didn't say that. I said that partner knows that if I have a maximum (actually something less than a maximum) for my opening bid, then we have "game values". _I_ know, therefore, that game is on, and will bid 4D which, even with a completely unknown partner, I will assume to be forcing. If that hand doesn't bid 4H after that, we won't be playing again.
You are saying exactly that.

How does partner know that you have a maximum opening bid?

Apparently, you believe that 1C - (3S) - X - (P) ; 4D is equivalent to 1C - 1H ; 2D . Why would you think that?

Carl
d***@pointerstop.ca
2018-11-09 13:35:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
You know very well that I didn't say that. I said that partner knows that if I have a maximum (actually something less than a maximum) for my opening bid, then we have "game values". _I_ know, therefore, that game is on, and will bid 4D which, even with a completely unknown partner, I will assume to be forcing. If that hand doesn't bid 4H after that, we won't be playing again.
You are saying exactly that.
How does partner know that you have a maximum opening bid?
Are you intentionally obtuse? [It's a rhetorical question, because we all know the answer]

Partner doesn't know I have a maximum. Partner _does_ know he has enough to bid over 3S.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Apparently, you believe that 1C - (3S) - X - (P) ; 4D is equivalent to 1C - 1H ; 2D . Why would you think that?
HE can't double on nothing--and he can't do it on the minimum values he'd need to bid 1H over my club opening, either, so no, I absolutely don't think those are the same sequences. Partner just has to know that I'm not sitting with a mittful of spades--I didn't let it sit, and I didn't bid 3N (which I'd have done if my AH was the AS).

And while I wouldn't call 4D a reverse, as Co did, 4C would be a weaker bid.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2018-11-10 01:17:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
You know very well that I didn't say that. I said that partner knows that if I have a maximum (actually something less than a maximum) for my opening bid, then we have "game values". _I_ know, therefore, that game is on, and will bid 4D which, even with a completely unknown partner, I will assume to be forcing. If that hand doesn't bid 4H after that, we won't be playing again.
You are saying exactly that.
How does partner know that you have a maximum opening bid?
Are you intentionally obtuse? [It's a rhetorical question, because we all know the answer]
Partner doesn't know I have a maximum. Partner _does_ know he has enough to bid over 3S.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Apparently, you believe that 1C - (3S) - X - (P) ; 4D is equivalent to 1C - 1H ; 2D . Why would you think that?
HE can't double on nothing--and he can't do it on the minimum values he'd need to bid 1H over my club opening, either, so no, I absolutely don't think those are the same sequences. Partner just has to know that I'm not sitting with a mittful of spades--I didn't let it sit, and I didn't bid 3N (which I'd have done if my AH was the AS).
And while I wouldn't call 4D a reverse, as Co did, 4C would be a weaker bid.
You seem to be saying that the negative double promises opening values. I am certain you do not personally wait for that strength to double, nor anyone else replying.

It is unplayable to require opener to rebid 4C with every minimum. 5-1 fits.

Carl
Co Wiersma
2018-11-10 03:24:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
You know very well that I didn't say that. I said that partner knows that if I have a maximum (actually something less than a maximum) for my opening bid, then we have "game values". _I_ know, therefore, that game is on, and will bid 4D which, even with a completely unknown partner, I will assume to be forcing. If that hand doesn't bid 4H after that, we won't be playing again.
You are saying exactly that.
How does partner know that you have a maximum opening bid?
Are you intentionally obtuse? [It's a rhetorical question, because we all know the answer]
Partner doesn't know I have a maximum. Partner _does_ know he has enough to bid over 3S.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Apparently, you believe that 1C - (3S) - X - (P) ; 4D is equivalent to 1C - 1H ; 2D . Why would you think that?
HE can't double on nothing--and he can't do it on the minimum values he'd need to bid 1H over my club opening, either, so no, I absolutely don't think those are the same sequences. Partner just has to know that I'm not sitting with a mittful of spades--I didn't let it sit, and I didn't bid 3N (which I'd have done if my AH was the AS).
And while I wouldn't call 4D a reverse, as Co did, 4C would be a weaker bid.
I do not know if this bid is called "a reverse" or if it has another /
no name
But it is reverse in the way that it forces the bidding up if partner
would prefer openers first suit clubs over diamonds; just like a normal
2-level reverse does

Now if the opening bid would have been diamonds, then a 4C bid at this
stage would leave the option to play openers first suit on the 4-level.
One could still play such a 4-level bid as gameforcing if one likes to
But that is a choice and not a inevitability

Co Wiersma
Player
2018-11-13 02:42:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by Player
4D is NOT forcing of course.
Of course it is. Opponents have shown weakness and you are limited only by virtue of not starting with 2C or 2D (depending on your version of Acol), while your partner has shown what must be game values if your hand is at the upper end.
Sorry but you are talking nonsense. The x was for takeout. So doubler could have 10-11 points, not necessarily gf values. 4D can be passed.
Co Wiersma
2018-11-14 08:57:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Player
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by Player
4D is NOT forcing of course.
Of course it is. Opponents have shown weakness and you are limited only by virtue of not starting with 2C or 2D (depending on your version of Acol), while your partner has shown what must be game values if your hand is at the upper end.
Sorry but you are talking nonsense. The x was for takeout. So doubler could have 10-11 points, not necessarily gf values. 4D can be passed.
I seem to see two statements with argument in between

Statement 1 : Derek is talking nonsense

Statement 2 : 4D can be passed

Now I totally agree with the given arguments
I disagree with both statements
In fact I do not even understand which statement your arguments were
meant for

English not being my native language, it is likely that I misunderstand
something here
Could you please explain?
thanks

Co Wiersma
Player
2018-11-20 03:44:02 UTC
Permalink
snipped
Post by Co Wiersma
Could you please explain?
thanks
Co Wiersma
"Of course it is. (4D forcing), Opponents have shown weakness and you are limited only by virtue of not starting with 2C or 2D (depending on your version of Acol), while your partner has shown what must be game values if your hand is at the upper end.

Anyone who claims that 4D is forcing is spouting rubbish. Ok, Co?
d***@pointerstop.ca
2018-11-20 09:19:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Player
Anyone who claims that 4D is forcing is spouting rubbish. Ok, Co?
It's one of the most basic tenets of the game that your bids are forcing until partner limits his hand, or you sign off in game. It's rubbish, not to mention losing bridge, to not treat 4D as forcing.
ais523
2018-11-20 11:52:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
It's one of the most basic tenets of the game that your bids are
forcing until partner limits his hand, or you sign off in game.
No, your bids are forcing until you limit /your/ hand. After all, even
if partner is unlimited, they might nonetheless have a minimum and want
to pass opposite the hand you've shown.

Or to put it another way, if partner's unlimited, you are forced - i.e.
you can't pass in case partner has something spectacular - but that
doesn't necessarily mean your bids are forcing on partner. If your bid
limits your own hand, then your partner can pass if they think the bid
you made happens to be the correct contract (taking into account the
hand that partner has, and the hand you've shown with your limit bid);
obviously, this is more likely to happen if the bid you made was natural
(because artificial bids are typically only the correct contract by
coincidence).

If bids were forcing when made by a player with an unlimited partner -
rather than being forcing when made by an unlimited player - then we'd
have the absurd situation that, say, an opening pre-empt in first seat
couldn't be passed (because the partner of the pre-emptor has an
unlimited hand).
--
ais523
KWSchneider
2018-11-20 13:44:41 UTC
Permalink
So in this auction - (1S) X (P) Anynewsuitat2level - is forcing? And the reason is that doubler is unlimited? Really?
d***@pointerstop.ca
2018-11-20 17:08:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by KWSchneider
So in this auction - (1S) X (P) Anynewsuitat2level - is forcing? And the reason is that doubler is unlimited? Really?
Don't be silly. As I said, your bids are forcing until partner limits his hand. You doubled, your partner was forced. HE limited his hand by not cue bidding 2S. No longer forcing.
KWSchneider
2018-11-20 17:19:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by KWSchneider
So in this auction - (1S) X (P) Anynewsuitat2level - is forcing? And the reason is that doubler is unlimited? Really?
Don't be silly. As I said, your bids are forcing until partner limits his hand. You doubled, your partner was forced. HE limited his hand by not cue bidding 2S. No longer forcing.
Last time I looked, 4D was not a cuebid - I limited my hand. It isn't forcing. What would you bid with QJ KQx Jxxx KJxx?
d***@pointerstop.ca
2018-11-20 17:32:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by KWSchneider
Last time I looked, 4D was not a cuebid - I limited my hand. It isn't forcing. What would you bid with QJ KQx Jxxx KJxx?
I don't think it's forcing, either, but we've passed 3N which with the worst hand he could have is quite possibly makeable, so 4D looks set to be a bad score. I'll play him for a stiff spade, D AKQ and another ace. And admit after 5D goes down that expecting a singleton spade was wildly optimistic.
Co Wiersma
2018-11-20 19:58:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by KWSchneider
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by KWSchneider
So in this auction - (1S) X (P) Anynewsuitat2level - is forcing? And the reason is that doubler is unlimited? Really?
Don't be silly. As I said, your bids are forcing until partner limits his hand. You doubled, your partner was forced. HE limited his hand by not cue bidding 2S. No longer forcing.
Last time I looked, 4D was not a cuebid - I limited my hand. It isn't forcing. What would you bid with QJ KQx Jxxx KJxx?
What should your Partner bid now then with a hand like
xxx Axxx Qxx AQx

As far as I see, a non forcing 4D bid leaves partner clueless as what to
do at the 4-level.
Parner does not know whether you have the hand you now gave,
QJ KQx Jxxx KJxx
or a hand like
x Kx Axxx Kxxxxx

Co Wiersma
d***@pointerstop.ca
2018-11-20 20:56:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Co Wiersma
What should your Partner bid now then with a hand like
xxx Axxx Qxx AQx
As far as I see, a non forcing 4D bid leaves partner clueless as what to
do at the 4-level.
No, that one's easy. Kurt's hand is difficult. With your hand, I'd bid 2S over partner's double, and 4D doesn't even come into it (unless partner now wants to cue bid controls). Now with a minimum, partner can sign off in his best suit at the three level (or maybe even 3N—he hasn't denied a stopper).
Co Wiersma
2018-11-20 21:15:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by Co Wiersma
What should your Partner bid now then with a hand like
xxx Axxx Qxx AQx
As far as I see, a non forcing 4D bid leaves partner clueless as what to
do at the 4-level.
No, that one's easy. Kurt's hand is difficult. With your hand, I'd bid 2S over partner's double, and 4D doesn't even come into it (unless partner now wants to cue bid controls). Now with a minimum, partner can sign off in his best suit at the three level (or maybe even 3N—he hasn't denied a stopper).
I thought we were back to responding after the 3S bid

But if you want to go back to your responds at the 2level
then substract one ace to my hand (replace with a small card)
and the problem is similar: a response of 2D should be forcing
what else should partner bid with
xxx Axxx xxx Axx

Co Wiersma
Player
2018-11-22 01:48:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by KWSchneider
So in this auction - (1S) X (P) Anynewsuitat2level - is forcing? And the reason is that doubler is unlimited? Really?
Don't be silly. As I said, your bids are forcing until partner limits his hand. You doubled, your partner was forced. HE limited his hand by not cue bidding 2S. No longer forcing.
You are the one being silly. Opener can have anywhere from 11 up to about 15.
d***@pointerstop.ca
2018-11-22 19:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Player
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by KWSchneider
So in this auction - (1S) X (P) Anynewsuitat2level - is forcing? And the reason is that doubler is unlimited? Really?
Don't be silly. As I said, your bids are forcing until partner limits his hand. You doubled, your partner was forced. HE limited his hand by not cue bidding 2S. No longer forcing.
You are the one being silly. Opener can have anywhere from 11 up to about 15.
No, he is limited only by not being able to open 2C or 2N. So, up to about 19-21HCP. If he bids a new suit over the limited advancer, he has at least a trick more than you're suggesting.
Player
2018-11-22 01:45:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by Player
Anyone who claims that 4D is forcing is spouting rubbish. Ok, Co?
It's one of the most basic tenets of the game that your bids are forcing until partner limits his hand, or you sign off in game. It's rubbish, not to mention losing bridge, to not treat 4D as forcing.
You are showing your ignorance with incredibly stupid comments.
Are you suggesting that
1D (1S) x (P)
2H
is forcing? According to your "logic" it is.
d***@pointerstop.ca
2018-11-22 19:39:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Player
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by Player
Anyone who claims that 4D is forcing is spouting rubbish. Ok, Co?
It's one of the most basic tenets of the game that your bids are forcing until partner limits his hand, or you sign off in game. It's rubbish, not to mention losing bridge, to not treat 4D as forcing.
You are showing your ignorance with incredibly stupid comments.
Are you suggesting that
1D (1S) x (P)
2H
is forcing? According to your "logic" it is.
Not according to anything I've said. 2H clearly limits the hand. Responder already promised hearts, and opener accepted at the lowest level. In either a 5cM system or a 4cM system, that promises a bare minimum, with quite possibly only 3H.
Hotzenplotz
2018-11-23 07:38:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by Player
Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
Post by Player
Anyone who claims that 4D is forcing is spouting rubbish. Ok, Co?
It's one of the most basic tenets of the game that your bids are forcing until partner limits his hand, or you sign off in game. It's rubbish, not to mention losing bridge, to not treat 4D as forcing.
You are showing your ignorance with incredibly stupid comments.
Are you suggesting that
1D (1S) x (P)
2H
is forcing? According to your "logic" it is.
Not according to anything I've said. 2H clearly limits the hand. Responder already promised hearts, and opener accepted at the lowest level. In either a 5cM system or a 4cM system, that promises a bare minimum, with quite possibly only 3H.
For older posters. I think we have another Reef fish. Robert Ling resurrected.
KWSchneider
2018-11-24 23:21:52 UTC
Permalink
You have to admit the ‘fish’ was entertaining...
Hotzenplotz
2018-11-25 06:57:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by KWSchneider
You have to admit the ‘fish’ was entertaining...
Oh absolutely Kurt. I miss him.

Player
2018-11-06 02:49:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
MPs, Acol system weak NT.
North
6
AQ
QJ87
AQ9542
N E S W
1C 3S X P
?
What do you bid?
4NT pick a suit, emphasis on minors.
KWSchneider
2018-11-12 02:12:53 UTC
Permalink
Much better choice than my 4D. Partner should deny 6+hearts (else bid them), 2+spades, leaving 7+cards in minors. Unfortunately, 1C opening does not guarantee club length, so we could end up in an 8card diamond fit when we also have a 9card or longer club fit.
Co Wiersma
2018-11-12 13:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by KWSchneider
Much better choice than my 4D. Partner should deny 6+hearts (else bid them), 2+spades, leaving 7+cards in minors. Unfortunately, 1C opening does not guarantee club length, so we could end up in an 8card diamond fit when we also have a 9card or longer club fit.
What would partner bid with

xxx
Kxxxx
AJx
Ax
If not double?

Co Wiersma
KWSchneider
2018-11-12 15:48:41 UTC
Permalink
And you plan to go where with this hand?
Co Wiersma
2018-11-12 19:39:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by KWSchneider
And you plan to go where with this hand?
Start with double of cause, and see what happens
Further I do not know everything
I do not even reject your 4NT bid

I just noticed your calculation was way off

Co Wiersma
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2018-11-12 18:26:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by KWSchneider
Much better choice than my 4D. Partner should deny 6+hearts (else bid them), 2+spades, leaving 7+cards in minors. Unfortunately, 1C opening does not guarantee club length, so we could end up in an 8card diamond fit when we also have a 9card or longer club fit.
After a pre-emptive overcall, the opening side must give up all worries about whether clubs are real. Also give up all hope of finding the best strain.

That's the purpose of the pre-empt.

Carl
Charles Brenner
2018-11-10 21:28:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
MPs, Acol system weak NT.
North
6
AQ
QJ87
AQ9542
N E S W
1C 3S X P
?
What do you bid?
It's a guess. My guess is 5C based on:
4D isn't forcing in my book. There is something to be said for a similar bid to be forcing 2 levels lower - it's a matter of partnership agreement. I don't feel compelled to treat any bid as forcing simply because several posters are adamant.
I'd expect (and prefer) that 4NT be treated as natural.
With 5C or 5D good opposite a moderate fit and minimum double, 4C is too little.
On the odds partner is more likely to have Jx in clubs than to have four diamonds.
So 5C.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2018-11-11 13:18:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Brenner
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
MPs, Acol system weak NT.
North
6
AQ
QJ87
AQ9542
N E S W
1C 3S X P
?
What do you bid?
4D isn't forcing in my book. There is something to be said for a similar bid to be forcing 2 levels lower - it's a matter of partnership agreement. I don't feel compelled to treat any bid as forcing simply because several posters are adamant.
I'd expect (and prefer) that 4NT be treated as natural.
With 5C or 5D good opposite a moderate fit and minimum double, 4C is too little.
On the odds partner is more likely to have Jx in clubs than to have four diamonds.
So 5C.
I've been commenting on the inconsistency of posted comments.

Here is what I actually think.

The double of 3S does not promise Roth-Stone opening strength. (If the doubler actually has R-S strength, he/she will make sure game is reached.)

Over the double, opener's 4D shows *minimum* 4=4 or 4=5. Thus, no game if doubler is not R-S. (What else can opener do?)

With the actual hand, 4S seems obvious and unavoidable. What are the downsides? That the best game may be 5-2 heart fit? Doubler already gave up on that.

Carl
Travis Crump
2018-11-12 03:20:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Charles Brenner
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
MPs, Acol system weak NT.
North
6
AQ
QJ87
AQ9542
N E S W
1C 3S X P
?
What do you bid?
4D isn't forcing in my book. There is something to be said for a similar bid to be forcing 2 levels lower - it's a matter of partnership agreement. I don't feel compelled to treat any bid as forcing simply because several posters are adamant.
I'd expect (and prefer) that 4NT be treated as natural.
With 5C or 5D good opposite a moderate fit and minimum double, 4C is too little.
On the odds partner is more likely to have Jx in clubs than to have four diamonds.
So 5C.
I've been commenting on the inconsistency of posted comments.
Here is what I actually think.
The double of 3S does not promise Roth-Stone opening strength. (If the doubler actually has R-S strength, he/she will make sure game is reached.)
Over the double, opener's 4D shows *minimum* 4=4 or 4=5. Thus, no game if doubler is not R-S. (What else can opener do?)
Have opened 1D. Which is what a lot of people do.
Post by ***@verizon.net
With the actual hand, 4S seems obvious and unavoidable. What are the downsides? That the best game may be 5-2 heart fit? Doubler already gave up on that.
Carl
Player
2018-11-13 02:41:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
MPs, Acol system weak NT.
North
6
AQ
QJ87
AQ9542
N E S W
1C 3S X P
?
What do you bid?
Jean Pierre Fontenille
2018-11-19 04:24:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
MPs, Acol system weak NT.
North
6
AQ
QJ87
AQ9542
N E S W
1C 3S X P
?
What do you bid?
4clubs
U ought bid
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