Discussion:
missed slam (2)
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a***@yahoo.co.uk
2019-09-21 18:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Butler imps, 5 card majors, strong NT, Benji Acol 2 openings, 2NT=21-22 HCP.

East West
A5 Q
A7 KQJ93
KJ7 Q9864
AKJ943 84

N E S W
P 2NT P 3D
P 3H P 3NT
AP

3NT one down thanks to the club queen offside, but six of either red suit is on. How do we get there?
ais523
2019-09-21 19:02:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Butler imps, 5 card majors, strong NT, Benji Acol 2 openings, 2NT=21-22 HCP.
East West
A5 Q
A7 KQJ93
KJ7 Q9864
AKJ943 84
N E S W
P 2NT P 3D
P 3H P 3NT
AP
3NT one down thanks to the club queen offside, but six of either red
suit is on. How do we get there?
Opposite 21-22, slam is very likely, and the 5 level almost certainly
safe. So West has a lot of bidding space to play with.

If you're playing a mostly natural system (but with transfers), the
correct sequence is for West to bid 4D on the second round (this is
forcing, usually shows 5-5, and strongly suggests playing in a suit).
One problem with this is that your Ace-asking becomes difficult at this
level (East can accept diamonds with Blackwood but doesn't know what to
do with West's response); simplest is for East to accept with 5D and
West continue with 6D (given a minimum of 31 HCP in the two hands, the
odds of being off two Aces = 8 HCP is very low).

Incidentally, I'm not sure if the 2NT opening was ideal here: East is
sufficiently unbalanced that it makes it hard to find suit and level at
the same time. East has 8 likely tricks in hand, so a Benji 2C followed
by 3C would give a good view of what sort of hand is held. The bidding
could start 2C, 2H; 3C, 3D; 4D (this is assuming that West needs a 5-5
to show two different suits opposite a strong opener), which has the
benefit of agreeing diamonds at a low enough level for the correct
player to Ace ask / cuebid (in this case, West is the correct player, as
West knows how strong East is but not vice versa). That said, you'll
need an artificial slam try which works correctly with minor suits
(Blackwood doesn't due to a lack of bidding space). East is maximum,
though (the bid qualifies for Benji 2C even without the KJ of diamonds),
and has three Aces and the King of trumps, so should accept any slam
try (unless it asks for something specific that East doesn't have); the
only issue is how you make it.
--
ais523
Douglas Newlands
2019-09-21 20:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Butler imps, 5 card majors, strong NT, Benji Acol 2 openings, 2NT=21-22 HCP.
East West
A5 Q
A7 KQJ93
KJ7 Q9864
AKJ943 84
N E S W
P 2NT P 3D
P 3H P 3NT
AP
3NT one down thanks to the club queen offside, but six of either red suit is on. How do we get there?
I think you can open 1C here and partner will respond with any 5hcp
and, if partner doesn't respond, the oppo will give you another bid.
So start
1C 1H
2N 3D

for me the 2NT is FG (doesn't show or deny a heart holding) but
do notice that 1C-1H-2D would show a reverse so 1C-1H-2N denies
4 diamonds so 3D shows 5-5 reds. East can bid 4D ( minor wood) so

4D 4S (0/3)
4N 5H (QD +KH)
6D

Always easy seeing all the hands!

BTW is the original poster directionally challenged? How hard is it
to have W to the left of E? The labels aren't even important here.
ais523
2019-09-21 21:05:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Butler imps, 5 card majors, strong NT, Benji Acol 2 openings, 2NT=21-22 HCP.
East West
A5 Q
A7 KQJ93
KJ7 Q9864
AKJ943 84
N E S W
P 2NT P 3D
P 3H P 3NT
AP
3NT one down thanks to the club queen offside, but six of either red
suit is on. How do we get there?
I think you can open 1C here and partner will respond with any 5hcp
Even playing Benji? The main benefit to playing Benji is that it makes
it safer to pass an opening bid.

I don't generally like Benji that much, but when playing with a partner
who requests it, I get most of my good results from passing opening bids
on 6HCP and sometimes even 7HCP: the fairly low requirements for a 2C
opening make that safe.
--
ais523
Douglas Newlands
2019-09-21 22:24:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by ais523
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Butler imps, 5 card majors, strong NT, Benji Acol 2 openings, 2NT=21-22 HCP.
East West
A5 Q
A7 KQJ93
KJ7 Q9864
AKJ943 84
N E S W
P 2NT P 3D
P 3H P 3NT
AP
3NT one down thanks to the club queen offside, but six of either red
suit is on. How do we get there?
I think you can open 1C here and partner will respond with any 5hcp
Even playing Benji? The main benefit to playing Benji is that it makes
it safer to pass an opening bid.
I don't generally like Benji that much, but when playing with a partner
who requests it, I get most of my good results from passing opening bids
on 6HCP and sometimes even 7HCP: the fairly low requirements for a 2C
opening make that safe.
Benji is weird idea that uses too many bids for too few hands.
I can remember being in the bar in the Kenmure Club in Glasgow
(owned by Albert Benjamin in partnership with GJ, MJ and DD iirc)
in late 60s or early 70's when Albert declared that Benjaminised Acol
was nothing to do with him.

doug
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-09-22 00:30:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by ais523
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Butler imps, 5 card majors, strong NT, Benji Acol 2 openings, 2NT=21-22 HCP.
East West
A5 Q
A7 KQJ93
KJ7 Q9864
AKJ943 84
N E S W
P 2NT P 3D
P 3H P 3NT
AP
3NT one down thanks to the club queen offside, but six of either red
suit is on. How do we get there?
I think you can open 1C here and partner will respond with any 5hcp
Even playing Benji? The main benefit to playing Benji is that it makes
it safer to pass an opening bid.
I don't generally like Benji that much, but when playing with a partner
who requests it, I get most of my good results from passing opening bids
on 6HCP and sometimes even 7HCP: the fairly low requirements for a 2C
opening make that safe.
--
ais523
do you really believe heavy passes by responder is a good idea?

Carl
ais523
2019-09-22 12:12:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by ais523
Even playing Benji? The main benefit to playing Benji is that it makes
it safer to pass an opening bid.
I don't generally like Benji that much, but when playing with a partner
who requests it, I get most of my good results from passing opening bids
on 6HCP and sometimes even 7HCP: the fairly low requirements for a 2C
opening make that safe.
do you really believe heavy passes by responder is a good idea?
At matchpoints, playing Benji? Yes. So far I've never lost matchpoints
from that, and have gained matchpoints from it at least half the time.
If you have 6-7HCP and opener opens with 1 of a suit rather than 2C/2D,
you almost certainly don't have game available (and often don't even
have a partscore available), so the only benefit to bidding is a) to
find a safer strain or b) to pre-empt the opponents. Often, you'll have
something like a 3-card fit for opener, or a 2-card fit for
opener's major in a balanced hand; in both of those cases, it's likely
that either 1 of opener's major makes, or that the opponents will bid
something and let you out of the bind you're in (and may well end up too
low or too high, as your partnership's combined strength could be
anywhere from about 12 to about 24 HCP, with lower values being
more likely, whereas their overcalls will typically have a wide range,
so they will have problems reaching the right level).

I can see why you'd want to bid regardless if playing IMPs (where missed
games cost a lot more than going too high in a partscore), or if playing
a 2C-as-only-strong-bid system (where 1-of-a-suit could be very strong).
But if you are going to bid on weak hands as responder, you probably
shouldn't be playing Benji, because it doesn't make good use of bidding
space in that case; the entire system is structured around making
passing an opening bid safe. (For example, many variants of Benji have
some way to show a balanced 19 count that doesn't require opening 1 of a
suit; that's pointless if you expect responder to bid on all 6 HCP
hands, but valuable if you expect responder to pass them.)
--
ais523
Lorne
2019-09-22 22:55:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by ais523
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by ais523
Even playing Benji? The main benefit to playing Benji is that it makes
it safer to pass an opening bid.
I don't generally like Benji that much, but when playing with a partner
who requests it, I get most of my good results from passing opening bids
on 6HCP and sometimes even 7HCP: the fairly low requirements for a 2C
opening make that safe.
do you really believe heavy passes by responder is a good idea?
At matchpoints, playing Benji? Yes. So far I've never lost matchpoints
from that, and have gained matchpoints from it at least half the time.
If you have 6-7HCP and opener opens with 1 of a suit rather than 2C/2D,
you almost certainly don't have game available (and often don't even
have a partscore available), so the only benefit to bidding is a) to
find a safer strain or b) to pre-empt the opponents. Often, you'll have
something like a 3-card fit for opener, or a 2-card fit for
opener's major in a balanced hand; in both of those cases, it's likely
that either 1 of opener's major makes, or that the opponents will bid
something and let you out of the bind you're in (and may well end up too
low or too high, as your partnership's combined strength could be
anywhere from about 12 to about 24 HCP, with lower values being
more likely, whereas their overcalls will typically have a wide range,
so they will have problems reaching the right level).
I can see why you'd want to bid regardless if playing IMPs (where missed
games cost a lot more than going too high in a partscore), or if playing
a 2C-as-only-strong-bid system (where 1-of-a-suit could be very strong).
But if you are going to bid on weak hands as responder, you probably
shouldn't be playing Benji, because it doesn't make good use of bidding
space in that case; the entire system is structured around making
passing an opening bid safe. (For example, many variants of Benji have
some way to show a balanced 19 count that doesn't require opening 1 of a
suit; that's pointless if you expect responder to bid on all 6 HCP
hands, but valuable if you expect responder to pass them.)
Passing a 6 count just invites the oppo to protect and losing a part
score battle you do not need to have is very expensive in MPs and half a
game swing at IMPs.
ais523
2019-09-22 23:21:07 UTC
Permalink
Lorne wrote:
[context: Benji Acol]
Post by Lorne
Passing a 6 count just invites the oppo to protect and losing a part
score battle you do not need to have is very expensive in MPs and half a
game swing at IMPs.
Now the opponents' protective bids have a ridiculously wide range. That
means that we may well end up with a plus score on a hand where it
shouldn't have been available, due to the opponents trying for game and
missing, or due to going past their last making part score trying to
find the correct strain.

A part score battle isn't necessarily about buying the contract: that
only happens when at least one side (usually both sides) have a fit.
You'd generally be most inclined to make a heavy pass of an opening bid
when the existence of a fit is dubious or your hand is balanced, making
it more likely that your opponents don't have a fit either. It's quite
possible that the opponents will be at the high 2 level, or the 3 level,
before they even find a viable suit, and still have no idea whether
they're too low or too high.

Meanwhile, bidding makes it easy for the opponents to figure out whether
to intervene, as they have a lot more bidding sequences (with a choice
of bidding immediately or waiting until the next round), and will also
have a much more accurate idea of how strong your partnership is (and
thus how strong their partnership is).

Note that the early pass works especially well when your opponents are
playing methods like Michaels and the Unusual Notrump, which are very
common nowadays; it means that the other bids have very little scope for
conveying strength. Many partnerhips would overcall on a 9 count, so if
you "borrow a King" that means a minimum overcall shows a 6 count (this
seems about right to me if you believe in trying to avoid letting the
opponents play 1 of a suit). Meanwhile, the maximum in this position
is normally a 15 count or so. A range of 6-15 is ten points, the same
as a 12-21 opening would be (and most players would consider that
range too large); if the opening bid was anything other than 1C,
there's also less bidding space available. So the odds of the
opponents making a mistake go way up.

A bidding sequence like 1H, (P), P might be looked down on by most
players nowadays, but I think that, especially if fairly
wide-ranging, it's much harder to defend against than sequences like
1H, (P), 2H, (P), P. (For example, it's much easier to visualise the
non-opening side's likely hands in the latter sequence than in the
former sequence, where they could have almost anything.)

(Incidentally, if the opponents almost always protect, that should
in theory mean your passes can safely go even heavier: if your
opponents almost always protect, then an opener who happens to be
maximum will almost always have a chance to call again. I haven't had a
chance to experiment with this at the table, though.)

There's also the side advantage that heavy passes as responder give to
the rest of your system, making your invites more accurate. I don't
think that's a major gain, but it likely helps a bit.
--
ais523
ais523
2019-09-23 00:13:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by ais523
[context: Benji Acol]
Post by Lorne
Passing a 6 count just invites the oppo to protect and losing a part
score battle you do not need to have is very expensive in MPs and half a
game swing at IMPs.
Now the opponents' protective bids have a ridiculously wide range. That
means that we may well end up with a plus score on a hand where it
shouldn't have been available, due to the opponents trying for game and
missing, or due to going past their last making part score trying to
find the correct strain.
I just decided to run a simulation on this, looking at the bidding
sequence 1S, (P), heavy P. It turns out that assuming the opener plays
a weak 1NT, most of the time it's incorrect for fourth hand to protect
when third hand has passed heavy (which isn't really surprising; of
course, protecting is generally a good idea in case third hand is
lighter, because zero counts would pass too).

Here's an example hand from the simulation (opener's hand on the left):

A K 6 2 Q 8 4 3 J 9 7 T 5
Q 6 3 A 8 7 4 K T 9 J 5 2
K Q T 8 5 9 6 3 2 A J 7 4
K T 8 5 A J Q 7 3 9 6 4 2

It turns out that in the situations where third hand passes a 6 count,
opener normally has a strong notrump type of hand; this hand really
isn't that unusual. There's no game on for the opening partnership (the
best they can make is 2NT). Normal bidding (i.e. when not playing Benji)
probably goes 1S, (P), 1NT, (P), and now opener has to choose between
2NT and 3NT (getting +120 if getting it right, -50 or -100 if getting
it wrong, although really opener should get it right here: that hand
isn't the greatest of 17 counts). If third hand passes and fourth hand
also passes, the opening partnership gets +110. If third hand passes
and fourth hand protects, the opening partnership gets at least +300
(opener will redouble a double or double diamonds (which responder
will pass), and the overcalling partnership can't make more than six
tricks in a red suit if the defence lead trumps).

This hand seems somewhat typical of the hands where the heavy pass makes
a difference: opener nearly always seems to have a strong notrump
(both because it's the most likely hand type opposite a balanced 6 HCP
that would open 1 of a suit, and because when opener is unbalanced
second hand will normally overcall), and fourth in hand could end up
ahead by staying quiet (the only available alternative to passing is
1NT, which typically makes and often scores 10 points better) but is
nearly always tempted to bid and that tends not to work out well. This
is actually making me rethink somewhat about the heavy pass strategy:
in retrospect, the reason it works at the table is likely that the
opponents are protecting too much and trying to win a part score
battle with no fit and less than half the high cards.

In the simulation, the heavy pass tended to not work out when
responder was unbalanced, unless the opponents were overly tempted to
protect: the risk of missing game was too high. So in the future, I'll
likely be reserving the call for balanced hands.
--
ais523
a***@yahoo.co.uk
2019-09-23 07:07:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by ais523
[context: Benji Acol]
Post by Lorne
Passing a 6 count just invites the oppo to protect and losing a part
score battle you do not need to have is very expensive in MPs and half a
game swing at IMPs.
Now the opponents' protective bids have a ridiculously wide range. That
means that we may well end up with a plus score on a hand where it
shouldn't have been available, due to the opponents trying for game and
missing, or due to going past their last making part score trying to
find the correct strain.
A part score battle isn't necessarily about buying the contract: that
only happens when at least one side (usually both sides) have a fit.
You'd generally be most inclined to make a heavy pass of an opening bid
when the existence of a fit is dubious or your hand is balanced, making
it more likely that your opponents don't have a fit either. It's quite
possible that the opponents will be at the high 2 level, or the 3 level,
before they even find a viable suit, and still have no idea whether
they're too low or too high.
Meanwhile, bidding makes it easy for the opponents to figure out whether
to intervene, as they have a lot more bidding sequences (with a choice
of bidding immediately or waiting until the next round), and will also
have a much more accurate idea of how strong your partnership is (and
thus how strong their partnership is).
Note that the early pass works especially well when your opponents are
playing methods like Michaels and the Unusual Notrump, which are very
common nowadays; it means that the other bids have very little scope for
conveying strength. Many partnerhips would overcall on a 9 count, so if
you "borrow a King" that means a minimum overcall shows a 6 count (this
seems about right to me if you believe in trying to avoid letting the
opponents play 1 of a suit). Meanwhile, the maximum in this position
is normally a 15 count or so. A range of 6-15 is ten points, the same
as a 12-21 opening would be (and most players would consider that
range too large); if the opening bid was anything other than 1C,
there's also less bidding space available. So the odds of the
opponents making a mistake go way up.
A bidding sequence like 1H, (P), P might be looked down on by most
players nowadays, but I think that, especially if fairly
wide-ranging, it's much harder to defend against than sequences like
1H, (P), 2H, (P), P. (For example, it's much easier to visualise the
non-opening side's likely hands in the latter sequence than in the
former sequence, where they could have almost anything.)
(Incidentally, if the opponents almost always protect, that should
in theory mean your passes can safely go even heavier: if your
opponents almost always protect, then an opener who happens to be
maximum will almost always have a chance to call again. I haven't had a
chance to experiment with this at the table, though.)
There's also the side advantage that heavy passes as responder give to
the rest of your system, making your invites more accurate. I don't
think that's a major gain, but it likely helps a bit.
--
ais523
There may be something in what you say, but as I am defending 70% of hands on average, heavy passes aren't appealing at all.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-09-22 00:32:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Butler imps, 5 card majors, strong NT, Benji Acol 2 openings, 2NT=21-22 HCP.
East West
A5 Q
A7 KQJ93
KJ7 Q9864
AKJ943 84
N E S W
P 2NT P 3D
P 3H P 3NT
AP
3NT one down thanks to the club queen offside, but six of either red suit is on. How do we get there?
I think you can open 1C here and partner will respond with any 5hcp
and, if partner doesn't respond, the oppo will give you another bid.
So start
1C 1H
2N 3D
for me the 2NT is FG (doesn't show or deny a heart holding) but
do notice that 1C-1H-2D would show a reverse so 1C-1H-2N denies
4 diamonds so 3D shows 5-5 reds. East can bid 4D ( minor wood) so
4D 4S (0/3)
4N 5H (QD +KH)
6D
Always easy seeing all the hands!
BTW is the original poster directionally challenged? How hard is it
to have W to the left of E? The labels aren't even important here.
any 5 pt? QJJJ all in different suits? usual result is 3NT down 3
Douglas Newlands
2019-09-22 02:51:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Butler imps, 5 card majors, strong NT, Benji Acol 2 openings, 2NT=21-22 HCP.
East West
A5 Q
A7 KQJ93
KJ7 Q9864
AKJ943 84
N E S W
P 2NT P 3D
P 3H P 3NT
AP
3NT one down thanks to the club queen offside, but six of either red suit is on. How do we get there?
I think you can open 1C here and partner will respond with any 5hcp
and, if partner doesn't respond, the oppo will give you another bid.
So start
1C 1H
2N 3D
for me the 2NT is FG (doesn't show or deny a heart holding) but
do notice that 1C-1H-2D would show a reverse so 1C-1H-2N denies
4 diamonds so 3D shows 5-5 reds. East can bid 4D ( minor wood) so
4D 4S (0/3)
4N 5H (QD +KH)
6D
Always easy seeing all the hands!
BTW is the original poster directionally challenged? How hard is it
to have W to the left of E? The labels aren't even important here.
any 5 pt? QJJJ all in different suits? usual result is 3NT down 3
Maybe if _you_ play it.
Points have no absolute value.
They are one first approximation to the playing value of a hand.
Some people get them out of proportion and see them as religious guidance.
Better declarers get more out of any number of them than run of the mill
declarers.
Then there is the contribution of bad defenders which helps to
invalidate point count driven expectations.

Anyway, you will bid the same hand 1C-1H-2N and go two down.
An irrelevant difference at teams (or butler as this is).
But I get better time to develop FG+ hands.

doug
Lorne
2019-09-21 21:26:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Butler imps, 5 card majors, strong NT, Benji Acol 2 openings, 2NT=21-22 HCP.
East West
A5 Q
A7 KQJ93
KJ7 Q9864
AKJ943 84
N E S W
P 2NT P 3D
P 3H P 3NT
AP
3NT one down thanks to the club queen offside, but six of either red suit is on. How do we get there?
With Ax in two suits I do not think 2N is the correct opener, especially
when you have a really good club suit and know opening 2N will make it
very hard to get to 6C which will often be a good spot.

I would start 1C - 1H; 2D - 3D; 3S - 4D assuming 3D is forcing (either
2S or 2N should be some form of bail out below game after the reverse).
I am not worried about having 3 diamonds as I can always go to hearts
unless partner shows a 5th diamond and we will play NT if he shows a
stop over 3S.
t***@att.net
2019-09-24 02:56:28 UTC
Permalink
I guess I would have lucked out with my natural canape approach.

1D (preparing to jump in Clubs) 1H (preparing to support Diamonds)
3C (Strong Jump Shift with 5+good Clubs) 4D (Diamond support, no Major Ace)
4H (cue) 6D (lack an Ace, know good Clubs and really good Hearts)

If East starts with 1C, it's nearly the same:
1C 1H
3C 3D
4D 5D (nothing good here it seems)
6D (known 8-card fit)

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