Smolen & Puppet

[Jim Greer]

I have been playing Smolen for years and have never played Puppet although
I'm familiar with the rudiments.

Am considering adding Puppet but would like to know if there are conflicts.

Thanks in advance for replies.

[Alan Malloy]

Post by Jim Greer
I have been playing Smolen for years and have never played Puppet although
I'm familiar with the rudiments.
Am considering adding Puppet but would like to know if there are conflicts.
Thanks in advance for replies.

It depends on exactly what you mean by Smolen and Puppet. Many pairs
play Puppet only over 2NT, and Smolen only over 1NT, and they obviously
have no conflicts. If you are planning to play them both over 1NT there
shouldn't be any any conflicts, except that the Smolen bid will now look
more like 1n-2c;2n-3h.

Personally I don't think Puppet over 1NT is a good idea, because it
removes a lot of the other nice features of Stayman (you can invite
game, bid a minor naturally, use Garbage Stayman to get out at the two
level, etc.), in exchange for being even better at finding major-suit
fits. In the partnerships where I play Puppet over 1NT, I usually prefer
to have 1n-2c as regular Stayman, and 1n-3c as GF Puppet. This gives up
the option of inviting with a broken minor, but I find those hands are
rare enough that I don't mind so much. I believe I am in the minority
here, as I've run into few people who play 1n-3c as Puppet, but if you
want to be able to open 1NT with a five-card major, without making big
changes to your system, this isn't a terrible way to do it.

If you want to play them both over 2NT, you are out of luck. There isn't
room, and you'll have to decide which one you like better (either one is
playable).

[BBO expert]

Post by Alan Malloy
Personally I don't think Puppet over 1NT is a good idea, because it
removes a lot of the other nice features of Stayman (you can invite
game, bid a minor naturally, use Garbage Stayman to get out at the two
level, etc.),

That's only using 2C for puppet, which isn't really necessary.

Post by Alan Malloy
in exchange for being even better at finding major-suit
fits. In the partnerships where I play Puppet over 1NT, I usually prefer
to have 1n-2c as regular Stayman, and 1n-3c as GF Puppet. This gives up
the option of inviting with a broken minor, but I find those hands are
rare enough that I don't mind so much. I believe I am in the minority
here, as I've run into few people who play 1n-3c as Puppet,

I can't say I've run into any, other than the teacher who taught it to us,
but all the better players seem to recognize it.

Post by Alan Malloy
but if you
want to be able to open 1NT with a five-card major, without making big
changes to your system, this isn't a terrible way to do it.

It's without doubt our most-used convention after regular Stayman and
transfers. Consequently, even though there are a fair number of things to
remember, it's also one convention I've never got wrong :-) It's also led
frequently to playing in a suit contract where the field is in NT. I can't
say I've analyzed the results to see if that's given us any edge, though.

[raija d]

Post by Jim Greer
I have been playing Smolen for years and have never played Puppet although
I'm familiar with the rudiments.
Am considering adding Puppet but would like to know if there are conflicts.
Thanks in advance for replies.
--
Jim Greer
Home: [phone]
Cell: [phone]

Let us assume that the Smolen you are considering is the gameforcing variety
on three level.

On 2NT, you can play one of Puppet or Smolen , but not both.
On 1NT, you can play both Puppet and Smolen but then you will lose Garbage
Stayman (much too big a loss, IMO).

In strong NT system, in my experience it is a working combination to play
regular Stayman [incl. Garbage Stayman] and gameforcing Smolen on 1NT; and
play Puppet on 2NT.

[h***@yahoo.com]

On Apr 30, 4:27 pm, "raija d" <***@charter.net> wrote:

On 1NT, you can play both Puppet and Smolen but then you will lose
Garbage
Stayman (much too big a loss, IMO).

************

Although I'm with you on this, it is wrong to state that playing both
Smolen and Puppet is what takes away garbage stayman. Since Smolen
only applies to jumps to the 3-level showing 4-5 majors with length in
the other major, it is Puppet Stayman that takes away the garbage
stayman treatment, not the combination of the two.

There is another potential loss in combining Puppet and Smolen over
1nt:

AQxx
KJxxx
xx
xx

KJxx
AQ
Kxxx
Kxxx

In this setup, the bidding with go 1nt 2c; 2d (no 5M) 3s (Smolen); 4s
all pass.

Not only is the more disclosed hand the declarer, the stronger hand is
dummy and his tenaces in the minors are threatened on lead, whereas 4S
played by south is virtually cold.

I don't know, myself, how to evaluate this defect because I don't play
Puppet over 1nt except when I'm playing Precision, and in that case
responder would not be strong enough to use Smolen, for in that case
he would give a positive response to the strong club.

Henrysun909

[Alan Malloy]

Post by raija d
On 1NT, you can play both Puppet and Smolen but then you will lose Garbage
Stayman (much too big a loss, IMO).
************
Although I'm with you on this, it is wrong to state that playing both
Smolen and Puppet is what takes away garbage stayman. Since Smolen
only applies to jumps to the 3-level showing 4-5 majors with length in
the other major, it is Puppet Stayman that takes away the garbage
stayman treatment, not the combination of the two.
There is another potential loss in combining Puppet and Smolen over
AQxx
KJxxx
xx
xx
KJxx
AQ
Kxxx
Kxxx
In this setup, the bidding with go 1nt 2c; 2d (no 5M) 3s (Smolen); 4s
all pass.
Not only is the more disclosed hand the declarer, the stronger hand is
dummy and his tenaces in the minors are threatened on lead, whereas 4S
played by south is virtually cold.
I don't know, myself, how to evaluate this defect because I don't play
Puppet over 1nt except when I'm playing Precision, and in that case
responder would not be strong enough to use Smolen, for in that case
he would give a positive response to the strong club.
Henrysun909

I don't think anyone would advocate playing Smolen after 1n-2c-2d, if 2d
promises a 4-card major. Just like with regular Smolen, you raise a
major if partner happens to show it after 1n-2c, you don't need to show
the 5-4 if partner promises a 4cM. Just bid 3d (or whatever your variant
of Puppet does with both majors), and let partner tell you which one he
has. If I were playing Smolen and Puppet, I would expect Smolen to apply
over 1n-2c-2n, not over 1n-2c-2d.

OTOH, it looks like you are playing the older version of Puppet, which
was designed to avoid disclosing opener's majors when there is no fit,
rather than the (much more popular, AFAICT) version which is designed to
uncover opener's 5cMs. So maybe your concerns are valid in that context;
I'd have to think a bit more about how to work Smolen into that structure.

[Sid]

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:27:25 -0700, "raija d" <***@charter.net>
wrote:

: On 1NT, you can play both Puppet and Smolen but then you will lose Garbage
: Stayman (much too big a loss, IMO).


Marty Bergen advocated the use of 3C as puppet stayman.

Sid

[raija d]

Post by Sid
: On 1NT, you can play both Puppet and Smolen but then you will lose Garbage
: Stayman (much too big a loss, IMO).
Marty Bergen advocated the use of 3C as puppet stayman.
Sid

Yes. I play that with one of my partners. The frequency of Puppet over a
strong NT being used, or useful, is VERY low in my experience. So low in
fact that when it finally was used, one of us had forgotten the agreement,
LOL.

[BBO expert]

Post by raija d

Post by Sid
: On 1NT, you can play both Puppet and Smolen but then you will lose Garbage
: Stayman (much too big a loss, IMO).
Marty Bergen advocated the use of 3C as puppet stayman.
Sid

Yes. I play that with one of my partners. The frequency of Puppet over a
strong NT being used, or useful, is VERY low in my experience. So low in
fact that when it finally was used, one of us had forgotten the agreement,

Funny, because as I mentioned elsewhere in the thread it's our most-used
convention - over a 15-17NT. Just on the odds of distribution, I'd expect
a game-forcing hand over a 15-17NT to show up pretty often. In our case,
my usual partner had arranged a game with someone else, and I tagged along
without a partner, and ended up paired with the director with a sit-out for
the first round. Kathie mentioned that my wife had asked her how she deals
with opening NT with a 5-card major, and so in the course of the two-board
sitout explained puppet stayman (using 3C). That was Thursday. The
following day was the start of a sectional tournament. When we met Kathie
and her partner at the table, we promptly got a hand built for Puppet
Stayman, and got it right :-) We haven't looked back.

[David Babcock]

Post by Jim Greer
I have been playing Smolen for years and have never played Puppet although
I'm familiar with the rudiments.
Am considering adding Puppet but would like to know if there are conflicts.

If you are talking about 2NT only, you can get the functionality of
both with a bit of juggling:

3C: Stayman-ish
3D: no major, or only 4 spades
3H: how many spades?
3S: 3
3N: 2
4S: 4
3S: puppet to 3NT
3N: 4=5=x=x
3H: 4 or 5 hearts, not 4 spades
3S: bid 3NT with 4, 4H with 5
3S: 5 spades
3N: 4-4 majors (with transfer follow-ups)

This is (I think) the structure published by George Rosenkranz, with
the 3S and 3NT continuations after 2NT:3C:3D switched to avoid wrong-
siding the 4=5=x=x hand if opener has 4 spades. Trash Stayman also
works pretty well here -- you may wind up in 4S after a 3NT rebid, but
pard has spades and you have club shortness.

David

[David Babcock]

Post by David Babcock
you may wind up in 4S after a 3NT rebid, but
pard has spades and you have club shortness.

Sorry, should have said you may wind up in 4M, but it will be on a 4-4
and you have club shortness

David

[smn]

Post by Jim Greer
I have been playing Smolen for years and have never played Puppet although
I'm familiar with the rudiments.
Am considering adding Puppet but would like to know if there are conflicts.
Thanks in advance for replies.
--
Jim Greer
Home: [phone]
Cell:     [phone]

I play Puppet over 2n (20-21) and over 2c-2d-2n (22-24) and use what
is basicly called Dutch Puppet stayman which I learned from the Jack
bridge program to incorparate smolen .Puppet over 1n is complicated
(see Pavlicek's websight -systems page) and I don't recommend it.
I assume you know Puppet .In this version ,say over 2n ,responder
cannot just bid 3n without a 4 card major ,but must bid 3c (which
responder does usually anyway to find out about a 5 card major)
first .If responder bids 3n directly over 2n this shows 5 spades and 4
hearts.I also added (not in the Jack version) that if responder
transfers to hearts and then bids 3n this shows 5 hearts and 4
spades;and if instead responder transfers to hearts and then bids
3s ,responder shows 5 hearts but denies 4 spades asking opener to
choose just between 3n and 4 hearts.You have to remember all this so
you must be good at conventions.
I played puppet stayman for years over 2n giving up smollen but
refused to play it over 2c strong.I was attracted to Dutch Puppet to
be able to use it over 2c also and still have smollen.I now play it
with 2 regular partners but again it is expensive if you forget .
Jack uses another extension also-if responder transfers to
hearts ,opener may refuse the transfer and bid 3n instead to show that
opener has 5 spades and 2 hearts.This seems good also but I didn't
want to press my luck after getting my partners to use the rest of it.
So don't let anyone say you can't have both Puppet and Smolen .smn

[p***@infi.net]

Post by Jim Greer
I have been playing Smolen for years and have never played Puppet although
I'm familiar with the rudiments.
Am considering adding Puppet but would like to know if there are conflicts.
Thanks in advance for replies.
--
Jim Greer
Home: [phone]
Cell:     [phone]

What is your purpose in playing Puppet over 1NT? Puppet Stayman can be
used to conceal opener's distribution (a major defect of regular
Stayman), and/or uncover a 5-3 fit for opener's major.

I consider the routine use of Puppet to hunt for a 5-3 fit when
responder has no 4 card major to be ludicrous -- it vastly increases
the frequency of 2C, giving fourth hand an easy lead-directing double.
When he doesn't double, his partner can guess to lead something other
than clubs (when he has no obvious lead.) In other words, this seems
to cancel out or even overwhelm the gains from concealing opener's
four card majors. Although a 5-3 fit is probably better than notrump
in general, it is not clear that the advantage is worth dragging
through a series of artificial bids to uncover. A strong notrump hand
with a concealed five card major often plays very well at notrump --
whereas, a five card suit in the responding hand is much harder to
take advantage of due to limited entries.

If you limit Puppet to hands with at least one four card major (or
certain minor suited hands that don't fit elsewhere in your response
scheme) Puppet then Smolen still makes some sense: you'll wrong-side
one of the major suits, but you can choose the less likely 4-4 fit
rather than the likely 5-3 fit. But as always with Smolen, you've bid
2 of the 3 side suits artificially as responder. Take, for example,
1NT-2C-2D-3H (showing 5 spades and 4 hearts.) Fourth hand has the
opportunity to double both clubs and hearts for a lead. If he doubles
neither, leader can guess to lead diamonds. Are you sure the gain from
right-siding one major suit offsets this?

[BBO expert]

Post by p***@infi.net
I consider the routine use of Puppet to hunt for a 5-3 fit when
responder has no 4 card major to be ludicrous -- it vastly increases
the frequency of 2C, giving fourth hand an easy lead-directing double.
When he doesn't double, his partner can guess to lead something other
than clubs (when he has no obvious lead.) In other words, this seems
to cancel out or even overwhelm the gains from concealing opener's
four card majors. Although a 5-3 fit is probably better than notrump
in general, it is not clear that the advantage is worth dragging
through a series of artificial bids to uncover.

Yes. I disagree (at least at our level) on the hazard of the lead-directing
double as I've rarely encountered it. I suspect that playing with experts,
its going to make quite a difference.

I really have to start recording the hands we do this with, though, and
comparing our results to the NT bidders. The huge drawback of PS is that
by the time we've got to 4M, opponents have a complete description of our
hands, and it's not clear to me either whether the advantage is worth what
we reveal.

[Alan Malloy]

Post by p***@infi.net

Post by Jim Greer
I have been playing Smolen for years and have never played Puppet although
I'm familiar with the rudiments.
Am considering adding Puppet but would like to know if there are conflicts.
Thanks in advance for replies.
--
Jim Greer
Home: [phone]
Cell: [phone]

What is your purpose in playing Puppet over 1NT? Puppet Stayman can be
used to conceal opener's distribution (a major defect of regular
Stayman), and/or uncover a 5-3 fit for opener's major.
I consider the routine use of Puppet to hunt for a 5-3 fit when
responder has no 4 card major to be ludicrous -- it vastly increases
the frequency of 2C, giving fourth hand an easy lead-directing double.
When he doesn't double, his partner can guess to lead something other
than clubs (when he has no obvious lead.) In other words, this seems
to cancel out or even overwhelm the gains from concealing opener's
four card majors. Although a 5-3 fit is probably better than notrump
in general, it is not clear that the advantage is worth dragging
through a series of artificial bids to uncover. A strong notrump hand
with a concealed five card major often plays very well at notrump --
whereas, a five card suit in the responding hand is much harder to
take advantage of due to limited entries.
If you limit Puppet to hands with at least one four card major (or
certain minor suited hands that don't fit elsewhere in your response
scheme) Puppet then Smolen still makes some sense: you'll wrong-side
one of the major suits, but you can choose the less likely 4-4 fit
rather than the likely 5-3 fit. But as always with Smolen, you've bid
2 of the 3 side suits artificially as responder. Take, for example,
1NT-2C-2D-3H (showing 5 spades and 4 hearts.) Fourth hand has the
opportunity to double both clubs and hearts for a lead. If he doubles
neither, leader can guess to lead diamonds. Are you sure the gain from
right-siding one major suit offsets this?

Opponents who double 3H for the lead, esp. in a Puppet auction, will be
getting terrifically bad scores on average. Your side has disclosed that
it has a game force, at least 6 hearts, and could have up to 8 hearts.
Doubling for lead in a suit opponents are saying they want to play in is
ludicrous: it leads to lots of appealing scores like -730 (3HX= when the
field is in 4H-1 on the bad heart split).

[h***@yahoo.com]

On May 1, 7:46 am, ***@infi.net wrote:

What is your purpose in playing Puppet over 1NT? Puppet Stayman can be
used to conceal opener's distribution (a major defect of regular
Stayman), and/or uncover a 5-3 fit for opener's major.

I consider the routine use of Puppet to hunt for a 5-3 fit when
responder has no 4 card major to be ludicrous -- it vastly increases
the frequency of 2C, giving fourth hand an easy lead-directing
double.

***********

This problem can be solved, though not without cost, by using 2nt as
Puppet Stayman. As I understand it, Meckwell tried this out a few
years back. I don't know if they are still using it, however.

Henrysun909