silly hand number 2

I held as East:

KJ765
T74
86432
-

5 card majors, 15-17NT.

Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

ais523

2018-03-24 21:18:53 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

Pass. It's quite likely that we don't have game on anywhere (unless West
has several clubs with no honour there; possible but unlikely), and
South is more or less guaranteed to balance. So show that you're weak
in points by passing; you can show the relevant parts of your
distribution in a later round, if it seems worth competing (and once
your partner has had a second chance to bid you'll have a better view
of the hand, and of what's worth showing).

You're strong enough for 2H (given the heart fit and void) but I think
that's more likely to help the opponents than your side; you can always
show a heart fit later once competition starts (and it's not like your
hearts are particularly good). You are /not/ strong enough for 1S
because your void will be less useful as declarer (it doesn't let you
trump in your short hand). Any other bid would mislead your partner as
to your distribution (other than a fit-jump 2S, which would be accurate
distributionally but show a much stronger hand than you have).

It's also good to show weakness at this point as the hand will likely be
competitive, and you don't want your partner thinking you have more
defence available than you actually do. (Along similar lines, it's
probably unwise to double at any point, even after (2C), pass, (pass);
2H would be a better bid there than double.)

--
ais523

Player

2018-03-26 04:47:03 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

Pass. It's quite likely that we don't have game on anywhere (unless West
has several clubs with no honour there; possible but unlikely), and
South is more or less guaranteed to balance. So show that you're weak
in points by passing; you can show the relevant parts of your
distribution in a later round, if it seems worth competing (and once
your partner has had a second chance to bid you'll have a better view
of the hand, and of what's worth showing).
You're strong enough for 2H (given the heart fit and void) but I think
that's more likely to help the opponents than your side; you can always
show a heart fit later once competition starts (and it's not like your
hearts are particularly good). You are /not/ strong enough for 1S
because your void will be less useful as declarer (it doesn't let you
trump in your short hand). Any other bid would mislead your partner as
to your distribution (other than a fit-jump 2S, which would be accurate
distributionally but show a much stronger hand than you have).
It's also good to show weakness at this point as the hand will likely be
competitive, and you don't want your partner thinking you have more
defence available than you actually do. (Along similar lines, it's
probably unwise to double at any point, even after (2C), pass, (pass);
2H would be a better bid there than double.)
--
ais523

Passing this hand is so bad! How does 2H show any defence at all?

a***@yahoo.co.uk

2018-03-24 23:23:25 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

I should add this is MPs.

Co Wiersma

2018-03-25 00:40:01 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

I would sure bid something
Depend on what means in your system
1H-1S
1NT-2H
If this can be very weak in your system, then I choose 1S
Else a direct 2H will have to do

Co Wiersma

Douglas Newlands

2018-03-25 01:46:12 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

Pass is inane. Even Goren raises with 4hcp and some points for the void.
The only question is whether it's a 1 bid hand or a 2 bid hand.
If the auction starts 1H-2H-2S, you are going to bid game, I hope, so
it's not a minimum hand.
LTC users might assert it is an 8 loser hand i.e. invitational to game
so they could respond 1S then make a minimum heart bid. That will help
partner revalue the SQ.
Perhaps another advantage of 1H-2H-3D is that you can reach game when it
composed mainly of red suit tricks.
I wouldn't be terribly fussed by either a 1S or a 2H response.
I would be revolted by a partner who passes.

doug

ais523

2018-03-25 02:45:52 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

Pass is inane. Even Goren raises with 4hcp and some points for the void.
The only question is whether it's a 1 bid hand or a 2 bid hand.

Neither's very descriptive. South has a lot of points. You're going to
get a much better view of the hand after you see South's bid and West's
rebid. Think of it this way: West has 12-20, you have 4, so the
opponents have 16-24 points between them. North would have overcalled if
they had 9 points or so and a good suit, so they're probably fairly
balanced (and if they aren't they're either long in hearts, more or
less guaranteeing South will have a long suit or a double, or else
weak, in which case South has enough points that they'll have to
balance). If West has spades, then the odds are highly likely that
either North or South has enough clubs to overcall (bear in mind that
passing will put South into balancing position, so they'll overcall
lighter than usual). If West has clubs, then they likely have honours
there that aren't going to help during the play of the hand, so game is
going to really struggle to make. If West has diamonds, then South will
almost certainly have an extreme distribution, making things highly
likely to reach game.

Or to make it even simpler: the opponents have at least 16 points. If
you pass and they have a fit, they'll almost certainly show it rather
than passing out the hand. If they don't have a fit and choose to let
you play in 1H, you don't have much of a fit either, so you'll be
happy to play in a heart partscore, which is exactly what 1H is.

So you may as well show your hand in the most accurate way you can,
which involves using all the bids available. Pass is an available hand.
Pass is an accurate description of the hand. 1S isn't.

Post by Douglas Newlands
If the auction starts 1H-2H-2S, you are going to bid game, I hope, so
it's not a minimum hand.

Depends on what 2S means. It's obviously a game try, but depending on
system, there are several sorts of game try it could be.

Say it's a weak-suit game try (showing 14-15 points and at least three
spades, at least two of which are losers). I'm assuming you'd bid 4S
immediately, but I'd pass; there's likely to be half a loser in spades,
a trump loser or two, and two losers in diamonds (unless the opener has
a shortage there). At matchpoints, that's not likely enough to be worth
bidding game.

Say it's a short-suit game try (showing a doubleton at best). That makes
your King of Spades much less valuable, and you hardly have any other
points. You'd have to return to 3H, and might well have trouble making
it if your partner's strength is in clubs.

If West makes a help-suit game try in spades, then you have a double
fit, so of course you'd bid game then. But the odds of that seem
unlikely on this hand – and if it is in fact the case that you have a
double fit, then South will almost certainly overcall at least 2C.

Post by Douglas Newlands
LTC users might assert it is an 8 loser hand i.e. invitational to game
so they could respond 1S then make a minimum heart bid. That will help
partner revalue the SQ.
Perhaps another advantage of 1H-2H-3D is that you can reach game when it
composed mainly of red suit tricks.

2H is certainly defensible here. Bear in mind, though, that it makes it
much easier for South to overcall accurately. After 1H, 2H, (4C), your
partner isn't going to be able to tell you much. After 1H, -, (2C), your
partner has a lot more bidding space to give you a sensible view of
their hand.

Post by Douglas Newlands
I wouldn't be terribly fussed by either a 1S or a 2H response.
I would be revolted by a partner who passes.

I'd be pretty upset by a 1S response from my partner. I'd be OK with 2H,
but I'd prefer a pass followed by a rebid in hearts or spades, as it'd
give a much better view of how the hand looks.

--
ais523

Douglas Newlands

2018-03-25 03:35:45 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

Pass is inane. Even Goren raises with 4hcp and some points for the void.
The only question is whether it's a 1 bid hand or a 2 bid hand.

Neither's very descriptive. South has a lot of points. You're going to
get a much better view of the hand after you see South's bid and West's
rebid.

No. You are limiting your hand by passing. Partner will never believe
you are this good.
You are not involving partner in a discussion about where to play.
You are going to try to make the decisions for your side on later rounds.
You are a "mastermind" and nobody likes a mastermind for a partner.

Think of it this way: West has 12-20, you have 4, so the

No, never think of it this way. This is pseudo-intellectual point
count wankery which does nothing towards informing one how to bid sensibly.

Post by ais523
opponents have 16-24 points between them. North would have overcalled if
they had 9 points or so and a good suit, so they're probably fairly
balanced (and if they aren't they're either long in hearts, more or
less guaranteeing South will have a long suit or a double, or else
weak, in which case South has enough points that they'll have to
balance). If West has spades, then the odds are highly likely that
either North or South has enough clubs to overcall (bear in mind that
passing will put South into balancing position, so they'll overcall
lighter than usual). If West has clubs, then they likely have honours
there that aren't going to help during the play of the hand, so game is
going to really struggle to make. If West has diamonds, then South will
almost certainly have an extreme distribution, making things highly
likely to reach game.
Or to make it even simpler: the opponents have at least 16 points. If
you pass and they have a fit, they'll almost certainly show it rather
than passing out the hand. If they don't have a fit and choose to let
you play in 1H, you don't have much of a fit either, so you'll be
happy to play in a heart partscore, which is exactly what 1H is.
So you may as well show your hand in the most accurate way you can,
which involves using all the bids available. Pass is an available hand.
Pass is an accurate description of the hand. 1S isn't.

Post by Douglas Newlands
If the auction starts 1H-2H-2S, you are going to bid game, I hope, so
it's not a minimum hand.

Depends on what 2S means. It's obviously a game try, but depending on
system, there are several sorts of game try it could be.

One assumes that basic methods, out of the beginner's book, are in play
unless specified otherwise i.e. long suit trials. You can't discuss
things otherwise in an open forum. Nor can you gain from discussions
in books and magazines unless you use the common methods.

Post by ais523
Say it's a weak-suit game try (showing 14-15 points and at least three
spades, at least two of which are losers). I'm assuming you'd bid 4S
immediately, but I'd pass; there's likely to be half a loser in spades,
a trump loser or two, and two losers in diamonds (unless the opener has
a shortage there). At matchpoints, that's not likely enough to be worth
bidding game.
Say it's a short-suit game try (showing a doubleton at best). That makes
your King of Spades much less valuable, and you hardly have any other
points. You'd have to return to 3H, and might well have trouble making
it if your partner's strength is in clubs.
If West makes a help-suit game try in spades, then you have a double
fit, so of course you'd bid game then. But the odds of that seem
unlikely on this hand – and if it is in fact the case that you have a
double fit, then South will almost certainly overcall at least 2C.

There might be such a fit even if you think it's unlikely but you'll
never find out unless somebody is bidding spades.
Sure there may be a club overcall but it may be partner who is going to
(unhelpfully) bid clubs.
Don't try to predict the future, make the obvious bid.
A 2H raise may stop an oppo bidding clubs

2H is certainly defensible here. Bear in mind, though, that it makes it
much easier for South to overcall accurately. After 1H, 2H, (4C), your

You have this totally backwards.

Post by ais523
partner isn't going to be able to tell you much. After 1H, -, (2C), your
partner has a lot more bidding space to give you a sensible view of
their hand.

Post by Douglas Newlands
I wouldn't be terribly fussed by either a 1S or a 2H response.
I would be revolted by a partner who passes.

I'd be pretty upset by a 1S response from my partner. I'd be OK with 2H,
but I'd prefer a pass followed by a rebid in hearts or spades, as it'd
give a much better view of how the hand looks.

I doubt you'll find any passers in other responses.

ais523

2018-03-25 04:21:49 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

Pass is inane. Even Goren raises with 4hcp and some points for the void.
The only question is whether it's a 1 bid hand or a 2 bid hand.

Neither's very descriptive. South has a lot of points. You're going to
get a much better view of the hand after you see South's bid and West's
rebid.

No. You are limiting your hand by passing. Partner will never believe
you are this good.

You aren't "this good", though. You have something like a minimum for
2H, and 2H is the second-weakest bid available. Being minimum for the
second-weakest bid means that the weakest bid is at least worth
considering.

The only value in this hand is the club void. You have three hearts, but
they're small, so your partner needs to start ruffing things in your
hand quickly to have any advantage; you have five small diamonds, a very
weak suit, which is a huge disadvantage unless partner is short there
(it's probably the second-worst possible holding, after having four
small diamonds); your spades are broken, and playing in hearts, you may
well be finessed by the opening lead if the opponents happen to lead
hearts.

If partner has a minimum, 2H might not even make. If your side wins the
opening lead you're probably OK, but I can see a situation where the
defenders start by winning a trick in diamonds or spades (seeing dummy)
and happen to hold the high hearts, allowing them to draw your trumps.
At that point, your club void is worthless.

So why not limit your hand? It's much more informative than not limiting
your hand would be, and when you get involved on later rounds, your
partner will know that your strength is in distribution and not in high
cards.

Post by Douglas Newlands
You are not involving partner in a discussion about where to play.
You are going to try to make the decisions for your side on later rounds.
You are a "mastermind" and nobody likes a mastermind for a partner.

I'd say that pass and then minimum hearts shows a low point count, but
enough distribution to make a bid in support of hearts worthwhile. (If
the opponents bid clubs - as seems likely - the pass and then bid
also shows a hand with more offence than defence, which is also the
case for this hand.) That's exactly what you have. Then partner can make
the decision. You aren't going to try to make the decisions yourself,
just to show what you have. And passing is the most descriptive way to
show that.

--
ais523

ais523

2018-03-25 05:16:54 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

Pass is inane. Even Goren raises with 4hcp and some points for the void.
The only question is whether it's a 1 bid hand or a 2 bid hand.

Neither's very descriptive. South has a lot of points. You're going to
get a much better view of the hand after you see South's bid and West's
rebid.

No. You are limiting your hand by passing. Partner will never believe
you are this good.

I decided to run some statistics on this hand to see what happened
(double-dummy because computers aren't very good at working out
single-dummy results, so they'll likely be more favourable for the
declarer than they should be).

My assumptions: you have exactly the hand shown there; West has 12-20
HCP, at least 5 hearts, and not 5 spades; and North has either less than
9 HCP with any distribution; less than 12 HCP and no good suit to
overcall (i.e. not 6 clubs, 6 diamonds, or 5 spades); or less than 15
HCP and at least 2 hearts. That's obviously not an exact statement of
when North would overcall, but it's hopefully accurate enough to get a
decent view of the hand.

I generated 100 random hands that fit these constraints. On 9 of the
hands, 1H doesn't even make (going down 1 on 7 of them, and down 2 on
two of them). There's an additional 7 hands where 2H goes down and 1H
doesn't. So there's about a 1 in 6 chance that bidding on risks giving
away a penalty and/or giving the opponents the useful information that
you have a heart fit (allowing them to bid more aggressively if they're
short in hearts).

At the other end, there were also many hands where more than a partscore
made in hearts. One hand is capable of making a grand slam (with
partner holding AKQxxx in hearts, Axx in spades, stiff A in diamonds,
xxx in clubs); however, this is a double-fit hand, and South's holding
of AJT873 in clubs is almost certainly going to lead to an overcall
there. There were 7 hands capable of making a small slam; I'd say that
maybe 2 of them might potentially be passable by South. 13 of the hands
could make game +1; another 17 made game exactly. (Again, remember that
this is double-dummy and so the games might not actually make in
practice.)

There's a rather higher proportion of games there than I was expecting.
However, on 4 of the hands where you could make 4H, the opponents could
make 5C, so they arguably don't count; and only 7 of the hands that
made game might plausibly be passed out by South (with the rest being
overcalled, almost always with 2C or double).

Incidentally, only 11 of the hands played better in spades than hearts,
so showing your spades here is almost certainly not a good idea.

So I'm less certain, based on this analysis, that passing is the
correct option, but it still seems to have the edge over 2H at
matchpoints (which is where the problem was set). After seeing this, I
think I'd probably risk 2H at IMPs, where games are worth more.

--
ais523

Player

2018-03-26 04:49:55 UTC

snipped

"No, never think of it this way. This is pseudo-intellectual point
count wankery which does nothing towards informing one how to bid sensibly."

Why don't you say what you really think, Doug? lol. I totally agree with you though that passing is ....well what can I say?

judyorcarl@verizon.net

2018-03-25 12:56:58 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

"Even Goren"????

To Goren, this is a 7-point hand, a no-choice response. Probably 1S.

It is contemporary bidding theory that insists on ignoring distribution, unless it is certain to be valuable.

Carl

Steve Willner

2018-03-29 16:47:38 UTC

Post by ***@verizon.net

KJ765
T74
86432
--

[Responding to partner's 1H opening]

Post by ***@verizon.net
To Goren, this is a 7-point hand,

Isn't it 8 dummy points? 4 HCP, 5 points for the void, deduct 1 for
only 3-card trump support.

Post by ***@verizon.net
a no-choice response. Probably 1S.

Definitely not pass. 1S looks right to me in a 4cM system. In today's
popular 5cM methods, I think we have to bid 2H, but 1S would be only a
small overbid.

Post by ***@verizon.net
It is contemporary bidding theory that insists on ignoring distribution [...]

Yep! As demonstrated by opener in the actual auction 1H-P-2H-3D-.
Holding AQ32 AQJ92 -- K862, opener bid only 3H. That's a huge
under-evaluation; 3S seems normal. Goren gets this right, evaluating
the hand as 20 points, but that's still an underestimate because the
void is in opponents' suit. Switching the minors would make 20 about
right.

Charles Brenner

2018-03-25 05:09:30 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

I'm happy with 1S. In general I subscribe strongly to raising partner but this hand doesn't look much like a 2H bid to me. It could play better in S, or if we fit well it's too strong for 2H.

But I appreciate Co's point that next round could be awkward if our agreement is that my 2nd round 2H bid shows a weak hand and a doubleton.

a***@yahoo.co.uk

2018-03-25 09:49:05 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

Some good responses, thanks, with a variety of useful analysis. At the table I decided my hand was too good to pass, and that due to the low HCP, have one bid on this hand, so raised to 2H to get the support across in case South comes in and North raises (and I have to decide whether to show the heart support at the 3 or 4 level). The auction proceeded:

N E S W
1H
P 2H 3D 3H
AP

Maybe there is a case for raising to 4H, but was concerned about hanging partner for a possible pushy competitive raise. The end result was +230 for 3H+3, which was above average as it had happened before and other EW pairs were going off in something else. The full deal:

T9
8653
J75
QJT5
AQ32 KJ765
AQJ92 T74
- 86432
K862 -
84
K
AKQT9
A9743

Big double fit in the majors and very little wastage. Some pairs who were playing 4 card majors did respond 1S, and presumably West went straight to game after South overcalls.

ais523

2018-03-25 10:18:14 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

I'd say your hand becomes much better after South bids diamonds (rather
than the expected clubs or double); South almost certainly has at least
5 of them, implying your partner is short. So you have a double fit + a
double misfit, the best possible distribution.

I'm not quite sure what the people I'm arguing with elsethread would
have made of an auction like this though:...

N E S W
1H
P P 2D 2H
4H

Still, I think this is the correct approach. If West passes, you
probably bid 3H. The idea with the pass then jump is to show that you
have a heart fit, and that your hand was considerably upgraded by
hearing the overcall. Your partner should be able to figure out that
you have a shortage in a black suit, and won't particularly care
which; the double fit + double misfit situation exists regardless of
which black suit is which. (They might think you have more hearts than
you do, but on this sort of hand that isn't particularly harmful.)

Slam seems highly unlikely to be reached on this hand (despite the
perfect distribution, you have only half the points), but game seems
entirely plausible regardless of whether you responded with 2H or
pass. That said, if you open 2H, you have to make your decision
yourself (without knowing whether West's 3H shows strength or 6
cards), whereas if you pass, it'll be your partner who gets to make
the decision once you've described your hand.

--
ais523

Player

2018-03-26 04:54:42 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

I'd say your hand becomes much better after South bids diamonds (rather
than the expected clubs or double); South almost certainly has at least
5 of them, implying your partner is short. So you have a double fit + a
double misfit, the best possible distribution.
I'm not quite sure what the people I'm arguing with elsethread would
have made of an auction like this though:...
N E S W
1H
P P 2D 2H
4H
Still, I think this is the correct approach. If West passes, you
probably bid 3H. The idea with the pass then jump is to show that you
have a heart fit, and that your hand was considerably upgraded by
hearing the overcall. Your partner should be able to figure out that
you have a shortage in a black suit, and won't particularly care
which; the double fit + double misfit situation exists regardless of
which black suit is which. (They might think you have more hearts than
you do, but on this sort of hand that isn't particularly harmful.)
Slam seems highly unlikely to be reached on this hand (despite the
perfect distribution, you have only half the points), but game seems
entirely plausible regardless of whether you responded with 2H or
pass. That said, if you open 2H, you have to make your decision
yourself (without knowing whether West's 3H shows strength or 6
cards), whereas if you pass, it'll be your partner who gets to make
the decision once you've described your hand.
--
ais523

You want pd to bid 2H on a 4503 over a 2D overcall? You have got to be kidding me? If I played with anyone who passed and the bidding came back to me, this is a x, not 2H.

Player

2018-03-26 05:19:49 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

I'd say your hand becomes much better after South bids diamonds (rather
than the expected clubs or double); South almost certainly has at least
5 of them, implying your partner is short. So you have a double fit + a
double misfit, the best possible distribution.
I'm not quite sure what the people I'm arguing with elsethread would
have made of an auction like this though:...
N E S W
1H
P P 2D 2H
4H
Still, I think this is the correct approach. If West passes, you
probably bid 3H. The idea with the pass then jump is to show that you
have a heart fit, and that your hand was considerably upgraded by
hearing the overcall. Your partner should be able to figure out that
you have a shortage in a black suit, and won't particularly care
which; the double fit + double misfit situation exists regardless of
which black suit is which. (They might think you have more hearts than
you do, but on this sort of hand that isn't particularly harmful.)
Slam seems highly unlikely to be reached on this hand (despite the
perfect distribution, you have only half the points), but game seems
entirely plausible regardless of whether you responded with 2H or
pass. That said, if you open 2H, you have to make your decision
yourself (without knowing whether West's 3H shows strength or 6
cards), whereas if you pass, it'll be your partner who gets to make
the decision once you've described your hand.
--
ais523

You want pd to bid 2H on a 4503 over a 2D overcall? You have got to be kidding me? If I played with anyone who passed and the bidding came back to me, this is a x, not 2H.

2504 - sorry!

ais523

2018-03-26 05:35:58 UTC

[snip]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
N E S W
1H
P P 2D 2H
4H

[snip]

Post by Player
You want pd to bid 2H on a 4503 over a 2D overcall? You have got to
be kidding me? If I played with anyone who passed and the bidding came
back to me, this is a x, not 2H.

2504 - sorry!

It's actually 4504. Still, it doesn't really matter what partner bids;
you're going to bid hearts when the bidding gets back round to you, to
show that you have a good distribution for a heart contract but next to
no high cards. I simply showed the partner as bidding hearts as they
made a free bid in hearts on the actual hand, with no reason to think
that their hand had been improved by the 2H call (given that the
commentors here seem to think that that's the appropriate call to use to
show three card support, an unspecified void, and basically no
points).

In retrospect I agree that a double would be more likely; repeating the
suit normally shows six cards. That actually makes North's bid of hearts
more descriptive, as the double doesn't promise extra length in trumps
(but rather, longer holdings in the side suits), so supporting the
original suit shows more of what your distribution is like. You might
want to bid just 3H in that situation (letting partner decide whether
to go into game or not), as you've now disclosed pretty much your
entire hand (weak in points, heart fit, improved by the diamond
overcall).

--
ais523

Player

2018-03-26 06:20:27 UTC

Post by ais523
[snip]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
N E S W
1H
P P 2D 2H
4H

[snip]

Post by Player
You want pd to bid 2H on a 4503 over a 2D overcall? You have got to
be kidding me? If I played with anyone who passed and the bidding came
back to me, this is a x, not 2H.

2504 - sorry!

It's actually 4504. Still, it doesn't really matter what partner bids;
you're going to bid hearts when the bidding gets back round to you, to
show that you have a good distribution for a heart contract but next to
no high cards. I simply showed the partner as bidding hearts as they
made a free bid in hearts on the actual hand, with no reason to think
that their hand had been improved by the 2H call (given that the
commentors here seem to think that that's the appropriate call to use to
show three card support, an unspecified void, and basically no
points).
In retrospect I agree that a double would be more likely; repeating the
suit normally shows six cards. That actually makes North's bid of hearts
more descriptive, as the double doesn't promise extra length in trumps
(but rather, longer holdings in the side suits), so supporting the
original suit shows more of what your distribution is like. You might
want to bid just 3H in that situation (letting partner decide whether
to go into game or not), as you've now disclosed pretty much your
entire hand (weak in points, heart fit, improved by the diamond
overcall).
--
ais523

You do realise that as the cards lie you can make 13 tricks in hearts? Not that I would expect anyone to bid this, but getting to 6 is not that unreasonable, though unlikely after a raise to 2H. You seem to think the responding hand is weak. I could not play with anyone who could not raise to 2H, even with a stiff club, let alone a void. I suspect Douggie feels the same. Did you notice that not one poster even considered a pass apart from you?
One curious point about your post: if partner passes the opening bid and opener Xs a 2D bid and this gets raised to 3D, why do you suddenly feel the responding hand is now worth a heart bid when you could not even dredge up a simple raise. Opener's x of 2D does not show a stronger hand, just shape. If you bid 3H with me, I would pass because there is NO WAY I could pick you for these values.

a***@yahoo.co.uk

2018-03-26 07:50:16 UTC

Post by ais523
[snip]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
N E S W
1H
P P 2D 2H
4H

[snip]

Post by Player
You want pd to bid 2H on a 4503 over a 2D overcall? You have got to
be kidding me? If I played with anyone who passed and the bidding came
back to me, this is a x, not 2H.

2504 - sorry!

It's actually 4504. Still, it doesn't really matter what partner bids;
you're going to bid hearts when the bidding gets back round to you, to
show that you have a good distribution for a heart contract but next to
no high cards. I simply showed the partner as bidding hearts as they
made a free bid in hearts on the actual hand, with no reason to think
that their hand had been improved by the 2H call (given that the
commentors here seem to think that that's the appropriate call to use to
show three card support, an unspecified void, and basically no
points).
In retrospect I agree that a double would be more likely; repeating the
suit normally shows six cards. That actually makes North's bid of hearts
more descriptive, as the double doesn't promise extra length in trumps
(but rather, longer holdings in the side suits), so supporting the
original suit shows more of what your distribution is like. You might
want to bid just 3H in that situation (letting partner decide whether
to go into game or not), as you've now disclosed pretty much your
entire hand (weak in points, heart fit, improved by the diamond
overcall).
--
ais523

According to Deep Finesse 12 tricks is the limit in hearts, you can make 13 tricks in spades. I don't think it is possible to ruff losers and draw trumps, there will be a club loser or a diamond loser at some point.

ais523

2018-03-26 11:51:55 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

and I've been arguing for Pass, followed by a rebid in hearts, with
most other posters disagreeing with me]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
You do realise that as the cards lie you can make 13 tricks in hearts?
Not that I would expect anyone to bid this, but getting to 6 is not
that unreasonable, though unlikely after a raise to 2H. You seem to
think the responding hand is weak. I could not play with anyone who
could not raise to 2H, even with a stiff club, let alone a void. I
suspect Douggie feels the same. Did you notice that not one poster
even considered a pass apart from you?

I think the responding hand is weak in high cards. It has only a King
and a Jack. The distribution is excellent, but it's important to let
partner know whether our bid is based on high card strength or
distribution (so that they can get a more accurate picture of what to
do). In this case, it's pure distribution, and so we pass on our first
chance to call to show that. We'll get another, and we can bid hearts
then. Pass now doesn't mean pass forever.

Think of it a bit like a relay system. You don't necessarily have to
show your hand on your first bid when you can show it more descriptively
in two bids (an immediate raise to show high card strength, a
pass-then-raise to show distribution without high card strength). The
odds of the opponents passing are very low (there's around a 7%
chance of missing game as the result of a pass, and 2% chance
of missing slam as a result of the pass, according to my calculations
earlier). When the opponents intervene on our right, we have a "free
call" which can be a pass or free bid, giving us more options to explain
what our hand is like; almost every bidding system I know will use Pass
for some hands that are actually quite strong (typically hands with
length mostly in the opposing suit). However, it's not just when
there's a bid on your right that the hand keeps going rather than
passing out. If your partner bid this round, an upcoming bid on your
left stops the hand passing out just as well as a bid on your right
does. So the only real issue is to ensure you'll get a bid there, which
there almost certainly will be when we have a distributional hand with
a fit for partner and our RHO couldn't manage a bid.

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
One curious point about your post: if partner passes the opening bid
and opener Xs a 2D bid and this gets raised to 3D, why do you suddenly
feel the responding hand is now worth a heart bid when you could not
even dredge up a simple raise. Opener's x of 2D does not show a
stronger hand, just shape. If you bid 3H with me, I would pass because
there is NO WAY I could pick you for these values.

It's the opponents' diamond bids that show our hand is strong, not the
partner's double. We have five weak diamonds. If both opponents have
diamonds too, then opener probably has a void, which suddenly gets rid
of a lot of losers from our hand. (It's unlikely that all five cards
would end up being losers, but highly plausible that 3 or 4 of them
were. So an overcall in diamonds or spades makes our hand the
equivalent of about nine points better, taking it from "probably able
to make a partscore" to "worth investigating slam".) The opponents would
hardly be bidding and raising a minor unless they collectively had eight
cards in the suit, unless they're particularly unusual psychers. You
have the other five. (Opposing bids in spades would also improve our
hand, but not by as much as the partner's void would make our honours
worthless.) With a bid of diamonds from the opponents, I'm bidding at
least 3H. With a bid and raise, I'm bidding game.

You seem to be acting like "values" of a hand is one thing, but really
hands have two sets of values; high cards, and distribution. If you bid
2H with either, how is your partner ever going to be able to tell the
difference between a 3334 with a couple of Kings and a 5350 with almost
no honours to speak of? You're not going to be able to have partner
help you make a decision if you can't show them what you have. A
sensible system needs to be able to distinguish between the cases, and
you can't use a bid like 2H for both of them. It's almost universal
that raises of a non-weak bid, outside competition, are based
primarily on high card strength (you don't raise an opening 1H to 3H
just because you have 4 hearts, or 4H just because you have five, if
your RHO passes). However, once competition has started, raises
normally do show distribution rather than high card strength (with
conventional bids like double or 2NT being used to show hands which
are high-card strong rather than distributional). So why would you not
wait for competition to start, thus changing the meaning of your bid
to the meaning you actually want, before making it?

--
ais523

judyorcarl@verizon.net

2018-03-26 13:01:00 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

and I've been arguing for Pass, followed by a rebid in hearts, with
most other posters disagreeing with me]

I think the responding hand is weak in high cards. It has only a King
and a Jack. The distribution is excellent, but it's important to let
partner know whether our bid is based on high card strength or
distribution (so that they can get a more accurate picture of what to
do). In this case, it's pure distribution, and so we pass on our first
chance to call to show that. We'll get another, and we can bid hearts
then. Pass now doesn't mean pass forever.
Think of it a bit like a relay system. You don't necessarily have to
show your hand on your first bid when you can show it more descriptively
in two bids (an immediate raise to show high card strength, a
pass-then-raise to show distribution without high card strength). The
odds of the opponents passing are very low (there's around a 7%
chance of missing game as the result of a pass, and 2% chance
of missing slam as a result of the pass, according to my calculations
earlier). When the opponents intervene on our right, we have a "free
call" which can be a pass or free bid, giving us more options to explain
what our hand is like; almost every bidding system I know will use Pass
for some hands that are actually quite strong (typically hands with
length mostly in the opposing suit). However, it's not just when
there's a bid on your right that the hand keeps going rather than
passing out. If your partner bid this round, an upcoming bid on your
left stops the hand passing out just as well as a bid on your right
does. So the only real issue is to ensure you'll get a bid there, which
there almost certainly will be when we have a distributional hand with
a fit for partner and our RHO couldn't manage a bid.

It's the opponents' diamond bids that show our hand is strong, not the
partner's double. We have five weak diamonds. If both opponents have
diamonds too, then opener probably has a void, which suddenly gets rid
of a lot of losers from our hand. (It's unlikely that all five cards
would end up being losers, but highly plausible that 3 or 4 of them
were. So an overcall in diamonds or spades makes our hand the
equivalent of about nine points better, taking it from "probably able
to make a partscore" to "worth investigating slam".) The opponents would
hardly be bidding and raising a minor unless they collectively had eight
cards in the suit, unless they're particularly unusual psychers. You
have the other five. (Opposing bids in spades would also improve our
hand, but not by as much as the partner's void would make our honours
worthless.) With a bid of diamonds from the opponents, I'm bidding at
least 3H. With a bid and raise, I'm bidding game.
You seem to be acting like "values" of a hand is one thing, but really
hands have two sets of values; high cards, and distribution. If you bid
2H with either, how is your partner ever going to be able to tell the
difference between a 3334 with a couple of Kings and a 5350 with almost
no honours to speak of? You're not going to be able to have partner
help you make a decision if you can't show them what you have. A
sensible system needs to be able to distinguish between the cases, and
you can't use a bid like 2H for both of them. It's almost universal
that raises of a non-weak bid, outside competition, are based
primarily on high card strength (you don't raise an opening 1H to 3H
just because you have 4 hearts, or 4H just because you have five, if
your RHO passes). However, once competition has started, raises
normally do show distribution rather than high card strength (with
conventional bids like double or 2NT being used to show hands which
are high-card strong rather than distributional). So why would you not
wait for competition to start, thus changing the meaning of your bid
to the meaning you actually want, before making it?
--
ais523

The opponents need to know whether your values are high-card or distributional. Your partner does not.

Carl

Co Wiersma

2018-03-26 14:18:10 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

and I've been arguing for Pass, followed by a rebid in hearts, with
most other posters disagreeing with me]

I think the responding hand is weak in high cards. It has only a King
and a Jack. The distribution is excellent, but it's important to let
partner know whether our bid is based on high card strength or
distribution (so that they can get a more accurate picture of what to
do). In this case, it's pure distribution, and so we pass on our first
chance to call to show that. We'll get another, and we can bid hearts
then. Pass now doesn't mean pass forever.
Think of it a bit like a relay system. You don't necessarily have to
show your hand on your first bid when you can show it more descriptively
in two bids (an immediate raise to show high card strength, a
pass-then-raise to show distribution without high card strength). The
odds of the opponents passing are very low (there's around a 7%
chance of missing game as the result of a pass, and 2% chance
of missing slam as a result of the pass, according to my calculations
earlier). When the opponents intervene on our right, we have a "free
call" which can be a pass or free bid, giving us more options to explain
what our hand is like; almost every bidding system I know will use Pass
for some hands that are actually quite strong (typically hands with
length mostly in the opposing suit). However, it's not just when
there's a bid on your right that the hand keeps going rather than
passing out. If your partner bid this round, an upcoming bid on your
left stops the hand passing out just as well as a bid on your right
does. So the only real issue is to ensure you'll get a bid there, which
there almost certainly will be when we have a distributional hand with
a fit for partner and our RHO couldn't manage a bid.

It's the opponents' diamond bids that show our hand is strong, not the
partner's double. We have five weak diamonds. If both opponents have
diamonds too, then opener probably has a void, which suddenly gets rid
of a lot of losers from our hand. (It's unlikely that all five cards
would end up being losers, but highly plausible that 3 or 4 of them
were. So an overcall in diamonds or spades makes our hand the
equivalent of about nine points better, taking it from "probably able
to make a partscore" to "worth investigating slam".) The opponents would
hardly be bidding and raising a minor unless they collectively had eight
cards in the suit, unless they're particularly unusual psychers. You
have the other five. (Opposing bids in spades would also improve our
hand, but not by as much as the partner's void would make our honours
worthless.) With a bid of diamonds from the opponents, I'm bidding at
least 3H. With a bid and raise, I'm bidding game.
You seem to be acting like "values" of a hand is one thing, but really
hands have two sets of values; high cards, and distribution. If you bid
2H with either, how is your partner ever going to be able to tell the
difference between a 3334 with a couple of Kings and a 5350 with almost
no honours to speak of? You're not going to be able to have partner
help you make a decision if you can't show them what you have. A
sensible system needs to be able to distinguish between the cases, and
you can't use a bid like 2H for both of them. It's almost universal
that raises of a non-weak bid, outside competition, are based
primarily on high card strength (you don't raise an opening 1H to 3H
just because you have 4 hearts, or 4H just because you have five, if
your RHO passes). However, once competition has started, raises
normally do show distribution rather than high card strength (with
conventional bids like double or 2NT being used to show hands which
are high-card strong rather than distributional). So why would you not
wait for competition to start, thus changing the meaning of your bid
to the meaning you actually want, before making it?

So if you pass and on your left comes a 3C bid and that is passed to you
How can you know what to do?
3C may well go down While 3H goes down doubled for a fortune
Or 3C makes and 3H goes up one
You do not know and you did nothing to involve partner in the decision

Same goes more or less when left bids 2C and its raised by your right
hand opponent

Co Wiersma

Douglas Newlands

2018-03-26 21:15:22 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

[large snip]

You bid for tricks you can make and not for losers you can avoid.
They are not the same and you fall into a common error which is often
enunciated as "I couldn't preempt because I had a void and was thus too
strong".
Let us suppose you have 7 trumps and a void and partner has 3 card
support and you have the AKQ between you.
If you draw trumps, you clearly make 7 trump tricks.
If the opponents lead your void suit at every available turn, you
might get 4 ruffs and then you can draw 3 rounds of trumps. So how
many trump tricks have you made with all those ruffs? Shock horror,
it's still 7 tricks. All those ruffs in the long trump hand have done
you no good what so ever!
It's obvious that ruffs in the long hand are valueless per se. You need
the ruffs to be in the short hand to make extra tricks. Ruffs in the
long hand merely control that suit.
This is why 4-4 fits are nice because a ruff in either hand gains a
trump trick. (yes I do know about dummy reversals but that beyond the
scope of this particular discussion and is not often a concern during
the auction).

Charles Brenner

2018-03-25 14:57:49 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

N E S W
1H
P 2H 3D 3H
AP
T9
8653
J75
QJT5
AQ32 KJ765
AQJ92 T74
- 86432
K862 -
84
K
AKQT9
A9743
Big double fit in the majors and very little wastage. Some pairs who were playing 4 card majors did respond 1S, and presumably West went straight to game after South overcalls.

West's hand calls for at least 4H. 4H by East over a 3H bid that isn't even invitational is less tempting.

I disagree about "little wastage." From East's point of view the wasted !CK is about expectation. From West's point of view the amount of minor suit wastage is a slightly on the lucky side.

Player

2018-03-26 04:45:22 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
KJ765
T74
86432
-
5 card majors, 15-17NT.
Partner opens 1H, North passes. What do you bid?

2H.

Jean Pierre Fontenille

2018-03-26 10:47:30 UTC

Will in New Haven

2018-04-08 20:51:28 UTC