Discussion:
To bid or not to bid
(too old to reply)
Lorne Anderson
2016-11-24 13:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Teams of 4, vul vs NV, you hold as dealer:

6
A1032
AQ987
Q42

and the bidding starts:
1D (1S) dbl (3S)
?

dbl promised 4 hearts, 3S was preemptive. Do you bid ?
Co Wiersma
2016-11-24 14:32:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
6
A1032
AQ987
Q42
1D (1S) dbl (3S)
?
dbl promised 4 hearts, 3S was preemptive. Do you bid ?
I would pass

Co Wiersma
jogs
2016-11-24 14:59:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Co Wiersma
Post by Lorne Anderson
6
A1032
AQ987
Q42
1D (1S) dbl (3S)
?
dbl promised 4 hearts, 3S was preemptive. Do you bid ?
I would pass
Co Wiersma
So would I(pass).

They have the advantage of the ranking suit and favorable vulnerability.
Just hope your teammates are presenting the same dilemma to opponents sitting in your seats.
p***@infi.net
2016-11-24 14:59:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
6
A1032
AQ987
Q42
1D (1S) dbl (3S)
?
dbl promised 4 hearts, 3S was preemptive. Do you bid ?
As partner could have something like xxx Kxxxx Kx Kxx, I think I'd better bid 4H at teams. Would hate to let 3S make when we have game our way. I'll sit for 4S. If a hand such as I describe would be a routine 2H bid in competition, then passing is probably correct. In ACBL/strong notrump land, I think such a hand would double.

While minimum, I have two features: the spade shortage, which partner can probably diagnose, and the heart support, which he cannot. Do I get the benefit of a skip bid warning/stop card? If forced to act in tempo I think I would bid. On reflection, perhaps not.
Dave Flower
2016-11-24 15:17:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
6
A1032
AQ987
Q42
1D (1S) dbl (3S)
?
dbl promised 4 hearts, 3S was preemptive. Do you bid ?
What would double mean ?

Dave Flower
Lorne Anderson
2016-11-24 16:01:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
Post by Lorne Anderson
6
A1032
AQ987
Q42
1D (1S) dbl (3S)
?
dbl promised 4 hearts, 3S was preemptive. Do you bid ?
What would double mean ?
Dave Flower
T/O, ie clubs. If you dble then convert clubs to hearts it is a slam
try, so partner will expect dble to deny hearts until proven otherwise.

To answer somebody else 2H by partner would have been forcing with 5+
hearts so <10 pts and 5 hearts is possible.
Berti Rupsli
2016-11-24 15:52:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
6
A1032
AQ987
Q42
1D (1S) dbl (3S)
?
dbl promised 4 hearts, 3S was preemptive. Do you bid ?
If DBL has a standard "negative" meaning (here ...8HCP, 4cH... minimum) then in this situation there's only PASS.

Berti
Lorne Anderson
2016-11-24 16:02:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Berti Rupsli
Post by Lorne Anderson
6
A1032
AQ987
Q42
1D (1S) dbl (3S)
?
dbl promised 4 hearts, 3S was preemptive. Do you bid ?
If DBL has a standard "negative" meaning (here ...8HCP, 4cH... minimum) then in this situation there's only PASS.
Berti
dble is unlimited if you have 4 hearts. It is too weak to bid a forcing
2H if 5+ in length.
Berti Rupsli
2016-11-25 11:12:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
Post by Berti Rupsli
Post by Lorne Anderson
6
A1032
AQ987
Q42
1D (1S) dbl (3S)
?
dbl promised 4 hearts, 3S was preemptive. Do you bid ?
If DBL has a standard "negative" meaning (here ...8HCP, 4cH... minimum) then in this situation there's only PASS.
Berti
dble is unlimited if you have 4 hearts. It is too weak to bid a forcing
2H if 5+ in length.
... unlimited (more or less), yes of course! I referred to the "minimum" situation that this DBL "could" show, and thus after oppts' 3S ...

Berti
Ronald
2016-11-25 11:06:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
6
A1032
AQ987
Q42
1D (1S) dbl (3S)
?
dbl promised 4 hearts, 3S was preemptive. Do you bid ?
An obvious 4H with a hand worth 16 points and no room to maneuver.
--
Ronald
Lorne Anderson
2016-11-25 12:21:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ronald
Post by Lorne Anderson
6
A1032
AQ987
Q42
1D (1S) dbl (3S)
?
dbl promised 4 hearts, 3S was preemptive. Do you bid ?
An obvious 4H with a hand worth 16 points and no room to maneuver.
Interesting that we now have a range between obvious pass and obvious 4H !

I will not say yet what worked at the table but I had this decision at
one table and a player with considerable international experience had it
at the other table. We chose different actions and a significant number
of IMPs changed hands.
Ronald
2016-11-25 23:19:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
Post by Ronald
6, A1032, AQ987, Q42
and the bidding starts: 1D (1S) dbl (3S) dbl promised 4 hearts, 3S was
preemptive. Do you bid ?
An obvious 4H with a hand worth 16 points and no room to maneuver.
Interesting that we now have a range between obvious pass and obvious 4H
! I will not say yet what worked at the table but I had this decision at
one table and a player with considerable international experience had it
at the other table. We chose different actions and a significant number
of IMPs changed hands.
Independent if the actual result on this particular board, I'm convinced
that bidding 4H is winning bridge. Anybody saying this is an obvious pass
doesn't realize the difference between the hand given and a real obvious
pass like Q62, A103, A987, Q42.
--
Ronald
Berti Rupsli
2016-11-26 10:33:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ronald
Post by Lorne Anderson
Post by Ronald
6, A1032, AQ987, Q42
and the bidding starts: 1D (1S) dbl (3S) dbl promised 4 hearts, 3S was
preemptive. Do you bid ?
An obvious 4H with a hand worth 16 points and no room to maneuver.
Interesting that we now have a range between obvious pass and obvious 4H
! I will not say yet what worked at the table but I had this decision at
one table and a player with considerable international experience had it
at the other table. We chose different actions and a significant number
of IMPs changed hands.
Independent if the actual result on this particular board, I'm convinced
that bidding 4H is winning bridge. Anybody saying this is an obvious pass
doesn't realize the difference between the hand given and a real obvious
pass like Q62, A103, A987, Q42.
--
Ronald
All it really shows is the effectiveness of the competitive 3S bid here! The rest seems just a different readiness to assume risk. No matter what you do (bid, pass, dbl), or what your partner does after your pass (he has another "chance" to bid or dbl!)... it can be right or wrong (in terms of game, slam, pushing oppts into higher S levels, etc)... Both sides could hold minimum or maximum HCP, length in H+D or H+C or D+C, a S stopper or not at all, ...

But another factor to consider is the vulnerability situation, so maybe you should really go for 4H then...

Berti
Robert Chance
2016-11-26 15:16:32 UTC
Permalink
Rightly or wrongly, I would bid 4H. The singleton spade is what swings it. It is unlikely that partner will have an obvious call when 3S comes round, as he won't be short in spades. If partner has something like xxx Kxxx Kx KJxx, I want to be in 4H, and partner is going to pass 3S.

I'm just hoping that partner does not have wasted values in spades.
Bruce Evans
2016-11-27 23:29:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Chance
Rightly or wrongly, I would bid 4H. The singleton spade is what swings
it. It is unlikely that partner will have an obvious call when 3S comes
round, as he won't be short in spades. If partner has something like
xxx Kxxx Kx KJxx, I want to be in 4H, and partner is going to pass 3S.
(You hold x ATxx AQ987 Qxx.)

Partner probably shouldn't pass with that. He can see that he doesn't have
KJx in spades so I am "marked" with a singleton on void and the fit is
perfect unless I have a singleton honor. He can see the fitting DK and
extras in the doubleton diamond and KJ of clubs. At matchpoints it would
be clear to X to show the balance of power and often end up in 3SX making
when I have garbage, but this is imps.

Even when partner has this much, 4H is not very good. It is usually down
if the opponents have a singleton club or heart, and not too good if they
have a singleton diamond.

Unless partner has more than this, the opponents can counter 4H making by
bidding 4S. (They should often bid 4S anyway, and my bidding or passing
now may help or harm our decision to bid over this. If I overbid 4H then
partner will bid 5H too often and if I pass we will defend 4SX too often.)
If the opponents have a singleton, then it is hard to beat 4S more than
1 so they do OK even if the singleton was in H so 4H was down (we take 0S,
1H, usually only 2D and usually only 1C). Down 2 seems to depend on
leading a trump at every opportunity.

When partner has less than this, 4HX costs 500-1400. The worst hand for
partner is approximately KQJ xxxx xx Axxx with hearts 4-1 and everything
offside. This hand has the extras to usually beat 3S off the top, but
in 4H it might lose 1S, 3H, 1D and 2C. More on a bad day with hearts 5-0.

Inerestingly, the opponents should bid 4S more often when they have no
singleton so it is down more often, since then 4H makes more often and
4S is still only down 2-3 (300-500 nonvul vs vul). If you are agressive
and bid 4H on hands like this, then they should bid 4S as an advance
sacrifice more when they have no singelton, to give you a harder 5-level
decision, but if you are not agressive then they should try to play 3S
instead.
Post by Robert Chance
I'm just hoping that partner does not have wasted values in spades.
Partner knows what he has.

It must be better to make a takeout/competitive double (hopefully you
are playing this and not penalty/optional at the 3S level, especially
at this vulnerability/scoring). Partner will know to pass or bid 3NT
large spade wastage (AKQ is also possible :-). He will pass too often
with medium spade wastage. But he won't pass with xxx or xx in spades
and a bad hand since xxx is not suitable for defending.

Bruce
Berti Rupsli
2016-11-28 10:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Evans
Post by Robert Chance
Rightly or wrongly, I would bid 4H. The singleton spade is what swings
it. It is unlikely that partner will have an obvious call when 3S comes
round, as he won't be short in spades. If partner has something like
xxx Kxxx Kx KJxx, I want to be in 4H, and partner is going to pass 3S.
(You hold x ATxx AQ987 Qxx.)
Partner probably shouldn't pass with that. He can see that he doesn't have
KJx in spades so I am "marked" with a singleton on void and the fit is
perfect unless I have a singleton honor. He can see the fitting DK and
extras in the doubleton diamond and KJ of clubs. At matchpoints it would
be clear to X to show the balance of power and often end up in 3SX making
when I have garbage, but this is imps.
Even when partner has this much, 4H is not very good. It is usually down
if the opponents have a singleton club or heart, and not too good if they
have a singleton diamond.
Unless partner has more than this, the opponents can counter 4H making by
bidding 4S. (They should often bid 4S anyway, and my bidding or passing
now may help or harm our decision to bid over this. If I overbid 4H then
partner will bid 5H too often and if I pass we will defend 4SX too often.)
If the opponents have a singleton, then it is hard to beat 4S more than
1 so they do OK even if the singleton was in H so 4H was down (we take 0S,
1H, usually only 2D and usually only 1C). Down 2 seems to depend on
leading a trump at every opportunity.
When partner has less than this, 4HX costs 500-1400. The worst hand for
partner is approximately KQJ xxxx xx Axxx with hearts 4-1 and everything
offside. This hand has the extras to usually beat 3S off the top, but
in 4H it might lose 1S, 3H, 1D and 2C. More on a bad day with hearts 5-0.
Inerestingly, the opponents should bid 4S more often when they have no
singleton so it is down more often, since then 4H makes more often and
4S is still only down 2-3 (300-500 nonvul vs vul). If you are agressive
and bid 4H on hands like this, then they should bid 4S as an advance
sacrifice more when they have no singelton, to give you a harder 5-level
decision, but if you are not agressive then they should try to play 3S
instead.
Post by Robert Chance
I'm just hoping that partner does not have wasted values in spades.
Partner knows what he has.
It must be better to make a takeout/competitive double (hopefully you
are playing this and not penalty/optional at the 3S level, especially
at this vulnerability/scoring). Partner will know to pass or bid 3NT
large spade wastage (AKQ is also possible :-). He will pass too often
with medium spade wastage. But he won't pass with xxx or xx in spades
and a bad hand since xxx is not suitable for defending.
Bruce
...> It must be better to make a takeout/competitive double... Partner will know to pass or bid 3NT ... large spade wastage (AKQ is also possible :-). He will pass too often with medium spade wastage.

Bruce: If I understood correctly then you suggested after RHO bid 3S, as next one you should DBL (not for penalty) instead of pass/4H here. His pd can then leave it in DBL (for penalty) or bid 3NT with S stopper(s).

Wouldn't this DBL show non-minimum but at the same time DENY a 4cH - because what else could you bid with non-minimum and no H support for pd's t/o DBL (promising 4cH...)??? Thus you would definitely miss the H fit even if pd is max, too, although you might even be able to play slam in H... ?
... especially against as you mentioned (quote): "... and often end up in 3SX making."

And further you wrote re pd's reaction to the DBL (quote): "... He will pass too often with medium spade wastage."
... would the wording "too often" refer to an unfavorable decision, opposite which better one...?

But in your first paragraphe you wrote (quote): "... Partner probably shouldn't pass with that." As you differentiate "I" from "pd", so what did you mean with it, like: ...(3S)-p-(p)-DBL...??? And if so, expecting what kind of reaction on "my" side? Pass, or anew an invitation for bidding H???

Thanks for clarification
Berti
Bruce Evans
2016-11-28 19:27:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Berti Rupsli
Post by Bruce Evans
...
It must be better to make a takeout/competitive double (hopefully you
are playing this and not penalty/optional at the 3S level, especially
at this vulnerability/scoring). Partner will know to pass or bid 3NT
large spade wastage (AKQ is also possible :-). He will pass too often
with medium spade wastage. But he won't pass with xxx or xx in spades
and a bad hand since xxx is not suitable for defending.
Bruce: If I understood correctly then you suggested after RHO bid 3S, as
next one you should DBL (not for penalty) instead of pass/4H here. His
pd can then leave it in DBL (for penalty) or bid 3NT with S stopper(s).
3NT with spade stopper(s) and some reason to expect to make 3NT. If in
doubt, partner can always pass with good spade stoppers. I would hope that
the extras are enough to make 4H too and bid it over 3NT. Except I
wouldn't double since I think the hand is too weak for that too. 4H is
only worse than 3NT if we have weak hearts and many fast tricks in the
minors, but that requires partner to have too many extras -- something
like QJx xxxx KJx AKx -- the similar hand with only QTx in spades or
Kxx in diamonds might as well play 3NT since 3NT is not cold and 4H only
needs the H break.
Post by Berti Rupsli
Wouldn't this DBL show non-minimum but at the same time DENY a 4cH -
because what else could you bid with non-minimum and no H support for
pd's t/o DBL (promising 4cH...)??? Thus you would definitely miss the H
It just shows not enough hearts or strength to bid 4H (or 4C).

Partner should assume that I don't have hearts and only bid 4H with 5
cards. Then 4H will be a good contract, and we will guess better over
a 4S delayed sacrifice. Partner also should try to avoid bidding 4C
on only 4 cards. He would probably have to bid it if he has
xxx xxxx Kx Kxxx since 4D is no better, but if he has xx xxxx Kxx Kxxx
then 4D is probably better. I bid 4H over 4C and 4D of course, and go
down many when partner has these minimum fitting hands and many more
when he has misfitting hands.
Post by Berti Rupsli
fit even if pd is max, too, although you might even be able to play slam
in H... ?
If pard is max, then he will force to slam and be unhappy when it goes
down because I am sub-minumum. At least I avoided over-stating the
hearts. We can still play in hearts, and the problem might be to avoid
playing in hearts because they have a loser while diamonds or clubs are
solid. Partner can't have a game force with long clubs, but he might have
AKJx. Then KJ of diamonds brings us up to 9 tricks. The other 3 can be
the AKQ of hearts, partner holding x KQxx KJx AKJx. That is a super max,
but 6H is down easily on 4-1 hearts offside.
Post by Berti Rupsli
... especially against as you mentioned (quote): "... and often end up in 3SX making."
Please quote normally, not like that.

Perhaps not often. Partner should pass 3SX with something like KJx or
QJx in spades and nothing better to do, but should find something better
with Qxx or Kx(x) or Ax(x).
Post by Berti Rupsli
And further you wrote re pd's reaction to the DBL (quote): "... He will
pass too often with medium spade wastage."
... would the wording "too often" refer to an unfavorable decision,
opposite which better one...?
He expect me to not have 4 hearts and misjudge based on that. Even if
he has 5 hearts, LOTT says that 4H is too high if I have 3.
Post by Berti Rupsli
But in your first paragraphe you wrote (quote): "... Partner probably
shouldn't pass with that." As you differentiate "I" from "pd", so what
did you mean with it, like: ...(3S)-p-(p)-DBL...??? And if so, expecting
what kind of reaction on "my" side? Pass, or anew an invitation for
bidding H???
Passing with xxx is simply an error so partner shouldn't do it, but he
might if he plays high-level takeout doubles as closer to optional.

Bruce
Berti Rupsli
2016-11-29 11:50:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Evans
Post by Berti Rupsli
Post by Bruce Evans
...
It must be better to make a takeout/competitive double (hopefully you
are playing this and not penalty/optional at the 3S level, especially
at this vulnerability/scoring). Partner will know to pass or bid 3NT
large spade wastage (AKQ is also possible :-). He will pass too often
with medium spade wastage. But he won't pass with xxx or xx in spades
and a bad hand since xxx is not suitable for defending.
Bruce: If I understood correctly then you suggested after RHO bid 3S, as
next one you should DBL (not for penalty) instead of pass/4H here. His
pd can then leave it in DBL (for penalty) or bid 3NT with S stopper(s).
3NT with spade stopper(s) and some reason to expect to make 3NT. If in
doubt, partner can always pass with good spade stoppers. I would hope that
the extras are enough to make 4H too and bid it over 3NT. Except I
wouldn't double since I think the hand is too weak for that too. 4H is
only worse than 3NT if we have weak hearts and many fast tricks in the
minors, but that requires partner to have too many extras -- something
like QJx xxxx KJx AKx -- the similar hand with only QTx in spades or
Kxx in diamonds might as well play 3NT since 3NT is not cold and 4H only
needs the H break.
Post by Berti Rupsli
Wouldn't this DBL show non-minimum but at the same time DENY a 4cH -
because what else could you bid with non-minimum and no H support for
pd's t/o DBL (promising 4cH...)??? Thus you would definitely miss the H
It just shows not enough hearts or strength to bid 4H (or 4C).
Partner should assume that I don't have hearts and only bid 4H with 5
cards. Then 4H will be a good contract, and we will guess better over
a 4S delayed sacrifice. Partner also should try to avoid bidding 4C
on only 4 cards. He would probably have to bid it if he has
xxx xxxx Kx Kxxx since 4D is no better, but if he has xx xxxx Kxx Kxxx
then 4D is probably better. I bid 4H over 4C and 4D of course, and go
down many when partner has these minimum fitting hands and many more
when he has misfitting hands.
Post by Berti Rupsli
fit even if pd is max, too, although you might even be able to play slam
in H... ?
If pard is max, then he will force to slam and be unhappy when it goes
down because I am sub-minumum. At least I avoided over-stating the
hearts. We can still play in hearts, and the problem might be to avoid
playing in hearts because they have a loser while diamonds or clubs are
solid. Partner can't have a game force with long clubs, but he might have
AKJx. Then KJ of diamonds brings us up to 9 tricks. The other 3 can be
the AKQ of hearts, partner holding x KQxx KJx AKJx. That is a super max,
but 6H is down easily on 4-1 hearts offside.
Post by Berti Rupsli
... especially against as you mentioned (quote): "... and often end up in 3SX making."
Please quote normally, not like that.
Perhaps not often. Partner should pass 3SX with something like KJx or
QJx in spades and nothing better to do, but should find something better
with Qxx or Kx(x) or Ax(x).
Post by Berti Rupsli
And further you wrote re pd's reaction to the DBL (quote): "... He will
pass too often with medium spade wastage."
... would the wording "too often" refer to an unfavorable decision,
opposite which better one...?
He expect me to not have 4 hearts and misjudge based on that. Even if
he has 5 hearts, LOTT says that 4H is too high if I have 3.
Post by Berti Rupsli
But in your first paragraphe you wrote (quote): "... Partner probably
shouldn't pass with that." As you differentiate "I" from "pd", so what
did you mean with it, like: ...(3S)-p-(p)-DBL...??? And if so, expecting
what kind of reaction on "my" side? Pass, or anew an invitation for
bidding H???
Passing with xxx is simply an error so partner shouldn't do it, but he
might if he plays high-level takeout doubles as closer to optional.
Bruce
Bruce: Thank you for your detailed reply, but I hardly understand... as I see it you avoided to answer explicitely to some of my questions. This is NO critique at all, but it didn't enlarge my understanding that way.

"3NT with spade stopper(s) and some reason to expect to make 3NT" evidently refers to the other one (because "I = the hand shown" do not hold S stoppers) ... And then you write "I would ...hope to make 4H too and bid it over 3NT"? Doesn't that seem like much ado about nothing... what changes my (possible) original 4H bid evaluation then?
And you yourself then relativize this bidding sequence with "...Except I wouldn't double since I think the hand is too weak for that too."
Originally you also wrote "... Partner probably shouldn't pass with that."
... so, actually WHAT is it you suggest???

You wrote "Partner should pass 3SX with...but find something better with Qxx or Kx(x) or Ax(x)"... So, this was also my question... what "better" and how ???

I was more interested in the way how one of the partners can "conclude" some bids as better or worse (in advance!), and not so much in realizing that 3NT with stoppers could be a sensible bid. Sorry if you did explain that, but then I couldn't catch it...

Bottom line of your reply seems to be that the H holding (A1032) is too weak for (directly) bidding a 4cH with 12+1+3 points (which you define as "sub-minumum", AND according to the OP pd promised a 4cH here!)... thus you prefer to "lie" to partner with your first bid... If this is the correct conclusion, I tend to disagree. Though I might pass here because of some other factors...

I do not at all understand what you mean by "...Even if he has 5 hearts, LOTT says that 4H is too high if I have 3." So, you say a 5-3 fit should not result in game because of LOTT???
Post by Bruce Evans
Post by Berti Rupsli
... especially against as you mentioned (quote): "... and often end up in 3SX making."
Please quote normally, not like that.
I'll be glad to consider this in the future, if I only understood what you mean by "normally"... Wasn't that a quote of one of your factual statements, so how could I have misquoted it???

Ok, I have to assume I haven't understood your post(s) correctly, or maybe I was not able to express what I meant properly. I'm sorry, forget it...

Thank you!
Berti
Berti Rupsli
2016-11-29 13:04:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Berti Rupsli
Post by Bruce Evans
Post by Berti Rupsli
Post by Bruce Evans
...
It must be better to make a takeout/competitive double (hopefully you
are playing this and not penalty/optional at the 3S level, especially
at this vulnerability/scoring). Partner will know to pass or bid 3NT
large spade wastage (AKQ is also possible :-). He will pass too often
with medium spade wastage. But he won't pass with xxx or xx in spades
and a bad hand since xxx is not suitable for defending.
Bruce: If I understood correctly then you suggested after RHO bid 3S, as
next one you should DBL (not for penalty) instead of pass/4H here. His
pd can then leave it in DBL (for penalty) or bid 3NT with S stopper(s).
3NT with spade stopper(s) and some reason to expect to make 3NT. If in
doubt, partner can always pass with good spade stoppers. I would hope that
the extras are enough to make 4H too and bid it over 3NT. Except I
wouldn't double since I think the hand is too weak for that too. 4H is
only worse than 3NT if we have weak hearts and many fast tricks in the
minors, but that requires partner to have too many extras -- something
like QJx xxxx KJx AKx -- the similar hand with only QTx in spades or
Kxx in diamonds might as well play 3NT since 3NT is not cold and 4H only
needs the H break.
Post by Berti Rupsli
Wouldn't this DBL show non-minimum but at the same time DENY a 4cH -
because what else could you bid with non-minimum and no H support for
pd's t/o DBL (promising 4cH...)??? Thus you would definitely miss the H
It just shows not enough hearts or strength to bid 4H (or 4C).
Partner should assume that I don't have hearts and only bid 4H with 5
cards. Then 4H will be a good contract, and we will guess better over
a 4S delayed sacrifice. Partner also should try to avoid bidding 4C
on only 4 cards. He would probably have to bid it if he has
xxx xxxx Kx Kxxx since 4D is no better, but if he has xx xxxx Kxx Kxxx
then 4D is probably better. I bid 4H over 4C and 4D of course, and go
down many when partner has these minimum fitting hands and many more
when he has misfitting hands.
Post by Berti Rupsli
fit even if pd is max, too, although you might even be able to play slam
in H... ?
If pard is max, then he will force to slam and be unhappy when it goes
down because I am sub-minumum. At least I avoided over-stating the
hearts. We can still play in hearts, and the problem might be to avoid
playing in hearts because they have a loser while diamonds or clubs are
solid. Partner can't have a game force with long clubs, but he might have
AKJx. Then KJ of diamonds brings us up to 9 tricks. The other 3 can be
the AKQ of hearts, partner holding x KQxx KJx AKJx. That is a super max,
but 6H is down easily on 4-1 hearts offside.
Post by Berti Rupsli
... especially against as you mentioned (quote): "... and often end up
in 3SX making."
Please quote normally, not like that.
Perhaps not often. Partner should pass 3SX with something like KJx or
QJx in spades and nothing better to do, but should find something better
with Qxx or Kx(x) or Ax(x).
Post by Berti Rupsli
And further you wrote re pd's reaction to the DBL (quote): "... He will
pass too often with medium spade wastage."
... would the wording "too often" refer to an unfavorable decision,
opposite which better one...?
He expect me to not have 4 hearts and misjudge based on that. Even if
he has 5 hearts, LOTT says that 4H is too high if I have 3.
Post by Berti Rupsli
But in your first paragraphe you wrote (quote): "... Partner probably
shouldn't pass with that." As you differentiate "I" from "pd", so what
did you mean with it, like: ...(3S)-p-(p)-DBL...??? And if so, expecting
what kind of reaction on "my" side? Pass, or anew an invitation for
bidding H???
Passing with xxx is simply an error so partner shouldn't do it, but he
might if he plays high-level takeout doubles as closer to optional.
Bruce
Bruce: Thank you for your detailed reply, but I hardly understand... as I see it you avoided to answer explicitely to some of my questions. This is NO critique at all, but it didn't enlarge my understanding that way.
"3NT with spade stopper(s) and some reason to expect to make 3NT" evidently refers to the other one (because "I = the hand shown" do not hold S stoppers) ... And then you write "I would ...hope to make 4H too and bid it over 3NT"? Doesn't that seem like much ado about nothing... what changes my (possible) original 4H bid evaluation then?
And you yourself then relativize this bidding sequence with "...Except I wouldn't double since I think the hand is too weak for that too."
Originally you also wrote "... Partner probably shouldn't pass with that."
... so, actually WHAT is it you suggest???
You wrote "Partner should pass 3SX with...but find something better with Qxx or Kx(x) or Ax(x)"... So, this was also my question... what "better" and how ???
I was more interested in the way how one of the partners can "conclude" some bids as better or worse (in advance!), and not so much in realizing that 3NT with stoppers could be a sensible bid. Sorry if you did explain that, but then I couldn't catch it...
Bottom line of your reply seems to be that the H holding (A1032) is too weak for (directly) bidding a 4cH with 12+1+3 points (which you define as "sub-minumum", AND according to the OP pd promised a 4cH here!)... thus you prefer to "lie" to partner with your first bid... If this is the correct conclusion, I tend to disagree. Though I might pass here because of some other factors...
I do not at all understand what you mean by "...Even if he has 5 hearts, LOTT says that 4H is too high if I have 3." So, you say a 5-3 fit should not result in game because of LOTT???
Post by Bruce Evans
Post by Berti Rupsli
... especially against as you mentioned (quote): "... and often end up
in 3SX making."
Please quote normally, not like that.
I'll be glad to consider this in the future, if I only understood what you mean by "normally"... Wasn't that a quote of one of your factual statements, so how could I have misquoted it???
Ok, I have to assume I haven't understood your post(s) correctly, or maybe I was not able to express what I meant properly. I'm sorry, forget it...
Thank you!
Berti
Sorry for a slip:
"...thus you prefer to 'lie' to partner with your FIRST bid..." actually should refer to the REBID (as you opened 1D)...
Berti Rupsli
2016-11-29 13:51:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Berti Rupsli
Post by Berti Rupsli
Post by Bruce Evans
Post by Berti Rupsli
Post by Bruce Evans
...
It must be better to make a takeout/competitive double (hopefully you
are playing this and not penalty/optional at the 3S level, especially
at this vulnerability/scoring). Partner will know to pass or bid 3NT
large spade wastage (AKQ is also possible :-). He will pass too often
with medium spade wastage. But he won't pass with xxx or xx in spades
and a bad hand since xxx is not suitable for defending.
Bruce: If I understood correctly then you suggested after RHO bid 3S, as
next one you should DBL (not for penalty) instead of pass/4H here. His
pd can then leave it in DBL (for penalty) or bid 3NT with S stopper(s).
3NT with spade stopper(s) and some reason to expect to make 3NT. If in
doubt, partner can always pass with good spade stoppers. I would hope that
the extras are enough to make 4H too and bid it over 3NT. Except I
wouldn't double since I think the hand is too weak for that too. 4H is
only worse than 3NT if we have weak hearts and many fast tricks in the
minors, but that requires partner to have too many extras -- something
like QJx xxxx KJx AKx -- the similar hand with only QTx in spades or
Kxx in diamonds might as well play 3NT since 3NT is not cold and 4H only
needs the H break.
Post by Berti Rupsli
Wouldn't this DBL show non-minimum but at the same time DENY a 4cH -
because what else could you bid with non-minimum and no H support for
pd's t/o DBL (promising 4cH...)??? Thus you would definitely miss the H
It just shows not enough hearts or strength to bid 4H (or 4C).
Partner should assume that I don't have hearts and only bid 4H with 5
cards. Then 4H will be a good contract, and we will guess better over
a 4S delayed sacrifice. Partner also should try to avoid bidding 4C
on only 4 cards. He would probably have to bid it if he has
xxx xxxx Kx Kxxx since 4D is no better, but if he has xx xxxx Kxx Kxxx
then 4D is probably better. I bid 4H over 4C and 4D of course, and go
down many when partner has these minimum fitting hands and many more
when he has misfitting hands.
Post by Berti Rupsli
fit even if pd is max, too, although you might even be able to play slam
in H... ?
If pard is max, then he will force to slam and be unhappy when it goes
down because I am sub-minumum. At least I avoided over-stating the
hearts. We can still play in hearts, and the problem might be to avoid
playing in hearts because they have a loser while diamonds or clubs are
solid. Partner can't have a game force with long clubs, but he might have
AKJx. Then KJ of diamonds brings us up to 9 tricks. The other 3 can be
the AKQ of hearts, partner holding x KQxx KJx AKJx. That is a super max,
but 6H is down easily on 4-1 hearts offside.
Post by Berti Rupsli
... especially against as you mentioned (quote): "... and often end up
in 3SX making."
Please quote normally, not like that.
Perhaps not often. Partner should pass 3SX with something like KJx or
QJx in spades and nothing better to do, but should find something better
with Qxx or Kx(x) or Ax(x).
Post by Berti Rupsli
And further you wrote re pd's reaction to the DBL (quote): "... He will
pass too often with medium spade wastage."
... would the wording "too often" refer to an unfavorable decision,
opposite which better one...?
He expect me to not have 4 hearts and misjudge based on that. Even if
he has 5 hearts, LOTT says that 4H is too high if I have 3.
Post by Berti Rupsli
But in your first paragraphe you wrote (quote): "... Partner probably
shouldn't pass with that." As you differentiate "I" from "pd", so what
did you mean with it, like: ...(3S)-p-(p)-DBL...??? And if so, expecting
what kind of reaction on "my" side? Pass, or anew an invitation for
bidding H???
Passing with xxx is simply an error so partner shouldn't do it, but he
might if he plays high-level takeout doubles as closer to optional.
Bruce
Bruce: Thank you for your detailed reply, but I hardly understand... as I see it you avoided to answer explicitely to some of my questions. This is NO critique at all, but it didn't enlarge my understanding that way.
"3NT with spade stopper(s) and some reason to expect to make 3NT" evidently refers to the other one (because "I = the hand shown" do not hold S stoppers) ... And then you write "I would ...hope to make 4H too and bid it over 3NT"? Doesn't that seem like much ado about nothing... what changes my (possible) original 4H bid evaluation then?
And you yourself then relativize this bidding sequence with "...Except I wouldn't double since I think the hand is too weak for that too."
Originally you also wrote "... Partner probably shouldn't pass with that."
... so, actually WHAT is it you suggest???
You wrote "Partner should pass 3SX with...but find something better with Qxx or Kx(x) or Ax(x)"... So, this was also my question... what "better" and how ???
I was more interested in the way how one of the partners can "conclude" some bids as better or worse (in advance!), and not so much in realizing that 3NT with stoppers could be a sensible bid. Sorry if you did explain that, but then I couldn't catch it...
Bottom line of your reply seems to be that the H holding (A1032) is too weak for (directly) bidding a 4cH with 12+1+3 points (which you define as "sub-minumum", AND according to the OP pd promised a 4cH here!)... thus you prefer to "lie" to partner with your first bid... If this is the correct conclusion, I tend to disagree. Though I might pass here because of some other factors...
I do not at all understand what you mean by "...Even if he has 5 hearts, LOTT says that 4H is too high if I have 3." So, you say a 5-3 fit should not result in game because of LOTT???
Post by Bruce Evans
Post by Berti Rupsli
... especially against as you mentioned (quote): "... and often end up
in 3SX making."
Please quote normally, not like that.
I'll be glad to consider this in the future, if I only understood what you mean by "normally"... Wasn't that a quote of one of your factual statements, so how could I have misquoted it???
Ok, I have to assume I haven't understood your post(s) correctly, or maybe I was not able to express what I meant properly. I'm sorry, forget it...
Thank you!
Berti
"...thus you prefer to 'lie' to partner with your FIRST bid..." actually should refer to the REBID (as you opened 1D)...
There is one aspect I almost disregarded: it was "me" who opened with 1D. This should already confirm to pd my minimum holding as 12+ hcp and a 4c(+)D. So in case my rebid is PASS then pd is in a BETTER situation to evaluate than I am (at the same time he would "undervalue" my holding a little bit). If I such "hide" my 4cH, and oppts do not raise to 4S, he either will pass (if min); or he could either "push it" with a DBL (if max), or bid 3NT (if S stopper), or bid a minor, ... then I can still raise to 4H (as his DBL "promised" a 4cH). But in all those cases pd will be slowed down to overbid in H then, as compared to the situation when my rebid was 4H. All in all this also should advise against my rebid of DBL here. And only pd should decide on a sac against oppts' possible 4S then...

Berti

smn
2016-11-28 23:34:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
6
A1032
AQ987
Q42
1D (1S) dbl (3S)
?
dbl promised 4 hearts, 3S was preemptive. Do you bid ?
I like double asking partner to do something (including pass and 4h) .The problem with bidding 4h now is that it might get doubled -we are vulnerable ,the problem with double is that partner my leave it in and they are not vulnerable and we can make 4h .However if partner bids (not pass) it would be clubs or diamonds (or hearts) ,then you can bid 4h .I don't think 3sx making is at all likely . Very tough problem .smn
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...