A ruling or how to make a contract with a little help from above.

[b***@gmail.com]

First let's say you have this hand:

74 962 QT Q98632

The bidding by the opponents goes like this:
1H-2D*
2N - 3C
3D - 3S*
3N - 4C
4H - 4N
5H - 6D
pass

IMPS, team tournament. What do you lead?



OK; now you are declarer:
AJ
AKJT8
952
QT5


KQ93
-
AKj98
AK74



A club is lead, and ruffed by east. a spade return was won at the table, wherefter declarer immediately finessed trumps, lost to the queen and received a second ruff. Down two.

At the other table the same lead was followed by declarer cashing a top diamond before finessing. Down one.


However, as declarer noticed that east did not pass immediately, but had a short pause before his last pass, West shouldn't be allowed to lead clubs as he has got information from East.

The TD is called, and West claims that the bidding pointed out 6 of the seven remaining clubs, meaning that a club lead will lead to two tricks if declarer can't find the trump queen it is a perfectly normal lead, and the only lead that the player even contemplated.
TD asks some other players from other teams, all of which leads clubs with the same reasoning.


Still, there is hope. You take it to a higher level.
Here they too ask some players, and find that some of them would for some reason not explained, lead a spade, meaning that even if West never contemplated a spade lead ever, spade is a logical alternative. Thus the club lead is prohibited and spades is led.

Now, you have the same result as the other table, but the director committee is not finished...
You see, if declarer plays the trumps just as he did at the table, West will winn, and seeing three clubs on dummy and knowing that declarer has four clubs, he could possibly be allowed to use this information and return a club for a ruff.
It is ruled that, although at the table declarer immediately finessed diamonds, after the spade lead declarer gets to cash a top diamond, and when the T appear, he cashes the second top diamond, and what a marvellous play! The queen appears, in the end giving the result 6D +1 And a number of IMPS comes declarer's way!

Nicely played!

Comments?

[[e-mail]]

Post by b***@gmail.com
74 962 QT Q98632
1H-2D*
2N - 3C
3D - 3S*
3N - 4C
4H - 4N
5H - 6D
pass
IMPS, team tournament. What do you lead?
AJ
AKJT8
952
QT5
KQ93
-
AKj98
AK74
A club is lead, and ruffed by east. a spade return was won at the table, wherefter declarer immediately finessed trumps, lost to the queen and received a second ruff. Down two.
At the other table the same lead was followed by declarer cashing a top diamond before finessing. Down one.
However, as declarer noticed that east did not pass immediately, but had a short pause before his last pass, West shouldn't be allowed to lead clubs as he has got information from East.
The TD is called, and West claims that the bidding pointed out 6 of the seven remaining clubs, meaning that a club lead will lead to two tricks if declarer can't find the trump queen it is a perfectly normal lead, and the only lead that the player even contemplated.
TD asks some other players from other teams, all of which leads clubs with the same reasoning.
Still, there is hope. You take it to a higher level.
Here they too ask some players, and find that some of them would for some reason not explained, lead a spade, meaning that even if West never contemplated a spade lead ever, spade is a logical alternative. Thus the club lead is prohibited and spades is led.
Now, you have the same result as the other table, but the director committee is not finished...
You see, if declarer plays the trumps just as he did at the table, West will winn, and seeing three clubs on dummy and knowing that declarer has four clubs, he could possibly be allowed to use this information and return a club for a ruff.
It is ruled that, although at the table declarer immediately finessed diamonds, after the spade lead declarer gets to cash a top diamond, and when the T appear, he cashes the second top diamond, and what a marvellous play! The queen appears, in the end giving the result 6D +1 And a number of IMPS comes declarer's way!
Nicely played!
Comments?

Not directly related to the question, but ...

Is there any point in the auction when East can give thought to whether to double an eventual 6D without constraining partner's action? For example,if East noticeably thinks after 5H does that suggest a club void? How about after 4H?

Carl

[richlp]

Post by b***@gmail.com
74 962 QT Q98632
1H-2D*
2N - 3C
3D - 3S*
3N - 4C
4H - 4N
5H - 6D
pass
IMPS, team tournament. What do you lead?
AJ
AKJT8
952
QT5
KQ93
-
AKj98
AK74
A club is lead, and ruffed by east. a spade return was won at the table, wherefter declarer immediately finessed trumps, lost to the queen and received a second ruff. Down two.
At the other table the same lead was followed by declarer cashing a top diamond before finessing. Down one.
However, as declarer noticed that east did not pass immediately, but had a short pause before his last pass, West shouldn't be allowed to lead clubs as he has got information from East.
The TD is called, and West claims that the bidding pointed out 6 of the seven remaining clubs, meaning that a club lead will lead to two tricks if declarer can't find the trump queen it is a perfectly normal lead, and the only lead that the player even contemplated.
TD asks some other players from other teams, all of which leads clubs with the same reasoning.
Still, there is hope. You take it to a higher level.
Here they too ask some players, and find that some of them would for some reason not explained, lead a spade, meaning that even if West never contemplated a spade lead ever, spade is a logical alternative. Thus the club lead is prohibited and spades is led.
Now, you have the same result as the other table, but the director committee is not finished...
You see, if declarer plays the trumps just as he did at the table, West will winn, and seeing three clubs on dummy and knowing that declarer has four clubs, he could possibly be allowed to use this information and return a club for a ruff.
It is ruled that, although at the table declarer immediately finessed diamonds, after the spade lead declarer gets to cash a top diamond, and when the T appear, he cashes the second top diamond, and what a marvellous play! The queen appears, in the end giving the result 6D +1 And a number of IMPS comes declarer's way!
Nicely played!
Comments?

As harshly as you seem to feel you were treated, I'm with the committee on this. Assuming ..........

Since the director went to the trouble of conducting a poll I assume he determined that your "short pause" was actually a break in tempo.

Assuming there was a break in tempo does it suggest a club lead?

Assuming the committee determines that the break in tempo suggests a club lead then the committee is correct to bar a club if there are Logical Alternatives.

I believe the committee is empowered to conduct its own poll beyond what the director did. If a significant number of players would consider a different lead and some would actually make that lead then that is a Logical Alternative.

It makes zero difference that you (or your partner) never ever considered anything other than a club. The committee determined there is a LA.

The committee also has to determine that damage has occurred. At least that one is a slam-dunk.

Once the committee determines all that, I believe their analysis of the play is correct. At IMPS it is 100% to play trump from the top once the 10 appears.

IF the committee went through that entire process (which is what they are supposed to do) they gave the correct ruling.

[[e-mail]]

Post by richlp

Post by b***@gmail.com
74 962 QT Q98632
1H-2D*
2N - 3C
3D - 3S*
3N - 4C
4H - 4N
5H - 6D
pass
IMPS, team tournament. What do you lead?
AJ
AKJT8
952
QT5
KQ93
-
AKj98
AK74
A club is lead, and ruffed by east. a spade return was won at the table, wherefter declarer immediately finessed trumps, lost to the queen and received a second ruff. Down two.
At the other table the same lead was followed by declarer cashing a top diamond before finessing. Down one.
However, as declarer noticed that east did not pass immediately, but had a short pause before his last pass, West shouldn't be allowed to lead clubs as he has got information from East.
The TD is called, and West claims that the bidding pointed out 6 of the seven remaining clubs, meaning that a club lead will lead to two tricks if declarer can't find the trump queen it is a perfectly normal lead, and the only lead that the player even contemplated.
TD asks some other players from other teams, all of which leads clubs with the same reasoning.
Still, there is hope. You take it to a higher level.
Here they too ask some players, and find that some of them would for some reason not explained, lead a spade, meaning that even if West never contemplated a spade lead ever, spade is a logical alternative. Thus the club lead is prohibited and spades is led.
Now, you have the same result as the other table, but the director committee is not finished...
You see, if declarer plays the trumps just as he did at the table, West will winn, and seeing three clubs on dummy and knowing that declarer has four clubs, he could possibly be allowed to use this information and return a club for a ruff.
It is ruled that, although at the table declarer immediately finessed diamonds, after the spade lead declarer gets to cash a top diamond, and when the T appear, he cashes the second top diamond, and what a marvellous play! The queen appears, in the end giving the result 6D +1 And a number of IMPS comes declarer's way!
Nicely played!
Comments?

As harshly as you seem to feel you were treated, I'm with the committee on this. Assuming ..........
Since the director went to the trouble of conducting a poll I assume he determined that your "short pause" was actually a break in tempo.
Assuming there was a break in tempo does it suggest a club lead?
Assuming the committee determines that the break in tempo suggests a club lead then the committee is correct to bar a club if there are Logical Alternatives.
I believe the committee is empowered to conduct its own poll beyond what the director did. If a significant number of players would consider a different lead and some would actually make that lead then that is a Logical Alternative.
It makes zero difference that you (or your partner) never ever considered anything other than a club. The committee determined there is a LA.
The committee also has to determine that damage has occurred. At least that one is a slam-dunk.
Once the committee determines all that, I believe their analysis of the play is correct. At IMPS it is 100% to play trump from the top once the 10 appears.
IF the committee went through that entire process (which is what they are supposed to do) they gave the correct ruling.

It seems that if this is the committee with jurisdiction, then once East has paused, he might as well go ahead and double.

Or would that committee then rule that slow double bars club lead just as much as a slow pass?

Carl

[Fred.]

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by richlp

Post by b***@gmail.com
74 962 QT Q98632
1H-2D*
2N - 3C
3D - 3S*
3N - 4C
4H - 4N
5H - 6D
pass
IMPS, team tournament. What do you lead?
AJ
AKJT8
952
QT5
KQ93
-
AKj98
AK74
A club is lead, and ruffed by east. a spade return was won at the table, wherefter declarer immediately finessed trumps, lost to the queen and received a second ruff. Down two.
At the other table the same lead was followed by declarer cashing a top diamond before finessing. Down one.
However, as declarer noticed that east did not pass immediately, but had a short pause before his last pass, West shouldn't be allowed to lead clubs as he has got information from East.
The TD is called, and West claims that the bidding pointed out 6 of the seven remaining clubs, meaning that a club lead will lead to two tricks if declarer can't find the trump queen it is a perfectly normal lead, and the only lead that the player even contemplated.
TD asks some other players from other teams, all of which leads clubs with the same reasoning.
Still, there is hope. You take it to a higher level.
Here they too ask some players, and find that some of them would for some reason not explained, lead a spade, meaning that even if West never contemplated a spade lead ever, spade is a logical alternative. Thus the club lead is prohibited and spades is led.
Now, you have the same result as the other table, but the director committee is not finished...
You see, if declarer plays the trumps just as he did at the table, West will winn, and seeing three clubs on dummy and knowing that declarer has four clubs, he could possibly be allowed to use this information and return a club for a ruff.
It is ruled that, although at the table declarer immediately finessed diamonds, after the spade lead declarer gets to cash a top diamond, and when the T appear, he cashes the second top diamond, and what a marvellous play! The queen appears, in the end giving the result 6D +1 And a number of IMPS comes declarer's way!
Nicely played!
Comments?

As harshly as you seem to feel you were treated, I'm with the committee on this. Assuming ..........
Since the director went to the trouble of conducting a poll I assume he determined that your "short pause" was actually a break in tempo.
Assuming there was a break in tempo does it suggest a club lead?
Assuming the committee determines that the break in tempo suggests a club lead then the committee is correct to bar a club if there are Logical Alternatives.
I believe the committee is empowered to conduct its own poll beyond what the director did. If a significant number of players would consider a different lead and some would actually make that lead then that is a Logical Alternative.
It makes zero difference that you (or your partner) never ever considered anything other than a club. The committee determined there is a LA.
The committee also has to determine that damage has occurred. At least that one is a slam-dunk.
Once the committee determines all that, I believe their analysis of the play is correct. At IMPS it is 100% to play trump from the top once the 10 appears.
IF the committee went through that entire process (which is what they are supposed to do) they gave the correct ruling.

It seems that if this is the committee with jurisdiction, then once East has paused, he might as well go ahead and double.
Or would that committee then rule that slow double bars club lead just as much as a slow pass?
Carl

The law prohibits any call which is demonstrably suggested over another by
the hesitation or other UI. What seems to be missing from most decisions is
the demonstration that the UI suggested the call. Many such decisions
appear on the surface to be applying "after it, therefore because of it"
logic.

A double following a hesitation would indicate that doubler is dubious
about setting the contract, or of having partner trying to hit the void
which may not be present. I think, on balance, a club lead would not
only be permitted but required. But, that wouldn't keep a committee from
ruling the other way.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by richlp
I believe the committee is empowered to conduct its own poll
beyond what the director did.

That is correct. An appeals committee has the same power as a TD.

[Player]

Post by b***@gmail.com
74 962 QT Q98632
1H-2D*
2N - 3C
3D - 3S*
3N - 4C
4H - 4N
5H - 6D
pass
IMPS, team tournament. What do you lead?
AJ
AKJT8
952
QT5
KQ93
-
AKj98
AK74
A club is lead, and ruffed by east. a spade return was won at the table, wherefter declarer immediately finessed trumps, lost to the queen and received a second ruff. Down two.
At the other table the same lead was followed by declarer cashing a top diamond before finessing. Down one.
However, as declarer noticed that east did not pass immediately, but had a short pause before his last pass, West shouldn't be allowed to lead clubs as he has got information from East.
The TD is called, and West claims that the bidding pointed out 6 of the seven remaining clubs, meaning that a club lead will lead to two tricks if declarer can't find the trump queen it is a perfectly normal lead, and the only lead that the player even contemplated.
TD asks some other players from other teams, all of which leads clubs with the same reasoning.
Still, there is hope. You take it to a higher level.
Here they too ask some players, and find that some of them would for some reason not explained, lead a spade, meaning that even if West never contemplated a spade lead ever, spade is a logical alternative. Thus the club lead is prohibited and spades is led.
Now, you have the same result as the other table, but the director committee is not finished...
You see, if declarer plays the trumps just as he did at the table, West will winn, and seeing three clubs on dummy and knowing that declarer has four clubs, he could possibly be allowed to use this information and return a club for a ruff.
It is ruled that, although at the table declarer immediately finessed diamonds, after the spade lead declarer gets to cash a top diamond, and when the T appear, he cashes the second top diamond, and what a marvellous play! The queen appears, in the end giving the result 6D +1 And a number of IMPS comes declarer's way!
Nicely played!
Comments?

Are you playing a weak NT? There is no other reason not to open this hand 1NT. I would let the result stand. C lead seems normal.

[b***@gmail.com]

Post by Player

Post by b***@gmail.com
74 962 QT Q98632
1H-2D*
2N - 3C
3D - 3S*
3N - 4C
4H - 4N
5H - 6D
pass
IMPS, team tournament. What do you lead?
AJ
AKJT8
952
QT5
KQ93
-
AKj98
AK74
A club is lead, and ruffed by east. a spade return was won at the table, wherefter declarer immediately finessed trumps, lost to the queen and received a second ruff. Down two.
At the other table the same lead was followed by declarer cashing a top diamond before finessing. Down one.
However, as declarer noticed that east did not pass immediately, but had a short pause before his last pass, West shouldn't be allowed to lead clubs as he has got information from East.
The TD is called, and West claims that the bidding pointed out 6 of the seven remaining clubs, meaning that a club lead will lead to two tricks if declarer can't find the trump queen it is a perfectly normal lead, and the only lead that the player even contemplated.
TD asks some other players from other teams, all of which leads clubs with the same reasoning.
Still, there is hope. You take it to a higher level.
Here they too ask some players, and find that some of them would for some reason not explained, lead a spade, meaning that even if West never contemplated a spade lead ever, spade is a logical alternative. Thus the club lead is prohibited and spades is led.
Now, you have the same result as the other table, but the director committee is not finished...
You see, if declarer plays the trumps just as he did at the table, West will winn, and seeing three clubs on dummy and knowing that declarer has four clubs, he could possibly be allowed to use this information and return a club for a ruff.
It is ruled that, although at the table declarer immediately finessed diamonds, after the spade lead declarer gets to cash a top diamond, and when the T appear, he cashes the second top diamond, and what a marvellous play! The queen appears, in the end giving the result 6D +1 And a number of IMPS comes declarer's way!
Nicely played!
Comments?

Are you playing a weak NT? There is no other reason not to open this hand 1NT. I would let the result stand. C lead seems normal.

Opponetns played a weak NT. Then again some people would not open 1 NT with a five card major.

[Player]

Post by b***@gmail.com

Post by Player

Post by b***@gmail.com
74 962 QT Q98632
1H-2D*
2N - 3C
3D - 3S*
3N - 4C
4H - 4N
5H - 6D
pass
IMPS, team tournament. What do you lead?
AJ
AKJT8
952
QT5
KQ93
-
AKj98
AK74
A club is lead, and ruffed by east. a spade return was won at the table, wherefter declarer immediately finessed trumps, lost to the queen and received a second ruff. Down two.
At the other table the same lead was followed by declarer cashing a top diamond before finessing. Down one.
However, as declarer noticed that east did not pass immediately, but had a short pause before his last pass, West shouldn't be allowed to lead clubs as he has got information from East.
The TD is called, and West claims that the bidding pointed out 6 of the seven remaining clubs, meaning that a club lead will lead to two tricks if declarer can't find the trump queen it is a perfectly normal lead, and the only lead that the player even contemplated.
TD asks some other players from other teams, all of which leads clubs with the same reasoning.
Still, there is hope. You take it to a higher level.
Here they too ask some players, and find that some of them would for some reason not explained, lead a spade, meaning that even if West never contemplated a spade lead ever, spade is a logical alternative. Thus the club lead is prohibited and spades is led.
Now, you have the same result as the other table, but the director committee is not finished...
You see, if declarer plays the trumps just as he did at the table, West will winn, and seeing three clubs on dummy and knowing that declarer has four clubs, he could possibly be allowed to use this information and return a club for a ruff.
It is ruled that, although at the table declarer immediately finessed diamonds, after the spade lead declarer gets to cash a top diamond, and when the T appear, he cashes the second top diamond, and what a marvellous play! The queen appears, in the end giving the result 6D +1 And a number of IMPS comes declarer's way!
Nicely played!
Comments?

Are you playing a weak NT? There is no other reason not to open this hand 1NT. I would let the result stand. C lead seems normal.

Opponetns played a weak NT. Then again some people would not open 1 NT with a five card major.

And they would be poor bidders?

[d***@yahoo.com]

Wait. It looks like both the opening leader and the dummy have the Queen of clubs. Am I missing something?

[b***@gmail.com]

Post by d***@yahoo.com
Wait. It looks like both the opening leader and the dummy have the Queen of clubs. Am I missing something?

Opening leader has the J of clubs, not the queen.