A No Trump question or three

[Michelle Steiner]

IMP scoring; you dealt:

You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx

1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?

2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

[David Goldfarb]

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?

Assuming my 1NT range includes 17-point hands, of course I bid
1NT. It's the obvious and correct description of the hand.

With most of my partners, I open 1D because 1NT would be a
huge underbid: it's what I'd bid if one of my aces were a queen,
jack, or a deuce.

Post by Michelle Steiner
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

Assuming that 2NT is a natural invite (and not, say, a transfer
to diamonds), I bid 3NT. The point count undervalues aces
(hence my comment about 17-point hands above).

[Sandy Barnes]

Post by David Goldfarb

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?

Assuming my 1NT range includes 17-point hands, of course I bid
1NT. It's the obvious and correct description of the hand.
With most of my partners, I open 1D because 1NT would be a
huge underbid: it's what I'd bid if one of my aces were a queen,
jack, or a deuce.

Post by Michelle Steiner
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

Assuming that 2NT is a natural invite (and not, say, a transfer
to diamonds), I bid 3NT. The point count undervalues aces
(hence my comment about 17-point hands above).
--
David Goldfarb |"Federico Fellini brought his own security to
| -- Billy Crystal

Interesting comment about the point count undervaluing the power of aces. While this is true, 3NT needs 9 tricks before the opponents gather in 5 of their own. This hand will not play well if partner is also balanced, without good intermediates. If he has "fillers", he will take the aggressive action with a decent 8/9 count.

I would add that I play the invitational sequence to demand game if partner is not dead minimum. I would not accept with this hand.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Sandy Barnes

Post by David Goldfarb

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?

Assuming my 1NT range includes 17-point hands, of course I bid
1NT. It's the obvious and correct description of the hand.
With most of my partners, I open 1D because 1NT would be a
huge underbid: it's what I'd bid if one of my aces were a queen,
jack, or a deuce.

Post by Michelle Steiner
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

Assuming that 2NT is a natural invite (and not, say, a transfer
to diamonds), I bid 3NT. The point count undervalues aces
(hence my comment about 17-point hands above).
--
David Goldfarb |"Federico Fellini brought his own security to
| -- Billy Crystal

Interesting comment about the point count undervaluing the power of aces. While this is true, 3NT needs 9 tricks before the opponents gather in 5 of their own. This hand will not play well if partner is also balanced, without good intermediates. If he has "fillers", he will take the aggressive action with a decent 8/9 count.
I would add that I play the invitational sequence to demand game if partner is not dead minimum. I would not accept with this hand.

You are implicitly assuming that Axxx means A432. And so with all the x's.

What if Axxx is A987 and each Axx is A98? That is, what if you KNOW partner has bad intermediates?

Carl

[Dave Flower]

A987 would be AXXX

Dave Flower

[RonKalf]

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

1. that's what 1NT bids are for. 2. I bid 3NT. Though I agree with David
that aces are undervalued, 4-3-3-3 is a minus. I have another reason: if we
have 5 tricks in a minor 3NT should have a good chance, if not 2NT might
fail as well.

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?

Is it in my 1NT opening range or one of my NT rebid ranges.
Whichever it is, I do it.
I presume, you are assuming 15-17 so I open 1N.
It's OK to have a little extra in your pocket
and you don't mention the vul which is very important
at imps.

Post by Michelle Steiner
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

I make whichever bids says I am slam suitable for diamonds.
That would be 3C in a lot of systems.

If you are assuming 2NT is a simple invite then you bid 3N
in a flash.

doug

[Player]

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

Yes, I bid 1NT. I would raise to 3.

[Berti Rupsli]

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

All the comments seem unanimous insofar. Of course, what else would you open (playing 15-17 NT)? And pd's 2NT-invite (quantitative) you'll "have to" answer with 3NT, lacking better alternatives. But IMO the situation is not that "great". Many refer to the fact that aces are undervalued. That's true in a (suit) slam contract, but in 3NT? You only hold 4 winners, and nothing else (only "x"), with the worst NT-distribution 4-3-3-3. So, you'll fully depend on your pd's holding to make 3NT. Yet, there seems no alternative...

Thus, you can only hope that pd does NOT invite with 2NT (quantitative)...

Berti

[p***@gmail.com]

Post by Berti Rupsli

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

All the comments seem unanimous insofar. Of course, what else would you open (playing 15-17 NT)? And pd's 2NT-invite (quantitative) you'll "have to" answer with 3NT, lacking better alternatives. But IMO the situation is not that "great". Many refer to the fact that aces are undervalued. That's true in a (suit) slam contract, but in 3NT? You only hold 4 winners, and nothing else (only "x"), with the worst NT-distribution 4-3-3-3. So, you'll fully depend on your pd's holding to make 3NT. Yet, there seems no alternative...
Thus, you can only hope that pd does NOT invite with 2NT (quantitative)...
Berti

I agree with Berti on this. Not to mention, the NT is wrong-sided in all four suits, which might eat up a trick. I'd open 1NT and rebid 3NT but only because I expect everyone else to do it so there is field protection; not because I particularly expect to make it. Playing these types of NT hands is complicated and often requires ducking tricks in multiple suits before beginning to take one's winners.

[Adam Lea]

Post by Berti Rupsli

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

All the comments seem unanimous insofar. Of course, what else would you open (playing 15-17 NT)? And pd's 2NT-invite (quantitative) you'll "have to" answer with 3NT, lacking better alternatives. But IMO the situation is not that "great". Many refer to the fact that aces are undervalued. That's true in a (suit) slam contract, but in 3NT? You only hold 4 winners, and nothing else (only "x"), with the worst NT-distribution 4-3-3-3. So, you'll fully depend on your pd's holding to make 3NT. Yet, there seems no alternative...
Thus, you can only hope that pd does NOT invite with 2NT (quantitative)...
Berti

I'm going to break the trend and pass an invitational NT. Four aces are
good, 4-3-3-3 and no intermediates both bad. Two bad properties
over-rides one good property.

Go on, tell me 3NT is laydown.

[Lorne]

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?

If it is in your range for 1N then not opening 1N just makes it
difficult to describe your hand later

Post by Michelle Steiner
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

Depends what I promised when I opened 1N. May also depend on whether
Axxx is A1098 or A432.

[Peter Smulders]

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

1. Yes, why not? What other choice is there?
2. 3NT

[Fred.]

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

Playing 15-17 NT, what else would you open? After 1D-1M
what's your rebid?

I'm used to playing 2NT invitation as highly invitational,
and pass only if ashamed of my 1NT opening.

Fred.

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Fred.

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

Playing 15-17 NT, what else would you open? After 1D-1M
what's your rebid?
I'm used to playing 2NT invitation as highly invitational,
and pass only if ashamed of my 1NT opening.

I should have specified that the range is 15-17 HCP, but because that's
the pretty much standard range (except for people playing Precision,
KS, etc.), it didn't occur to me to do it.

This was the last board my partner and I played in the next-to-last
round of a Swiss event yesterday. My partner opened 1NT, and I bid 2NT
with 8 HCP and 3=2=4=4 distribution. Personally, I would have passed
1NT with partner's hand; 16 HCP is in the middle of the range, there
isn't a runnable suit, and there aren't any decent intermediates (10s,
9s, etc.). Partner did bid 3NT. The hand wound up depending on a
finesse; onside, there are two overtricks, offside, it's down 1. It
was offside, for -50. The contract at the other table was 1NT, making
1 for +90, a 140 point swing for -5 IMPs. We lost the match by 2 IMPs.

The difference in IMPs and concomitant VPs wouldn't have changed our
overall standings, though.

[Co Wiersma]

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Fred.

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

Playing 15-17 NT, what else would you open? After 1D-1M
what's your rebid?
I'm used to playing 2NT invitation as highly invitational,
and pass only if ashamed of my 1NT opening.

I should have specified that the range is 15-17 HCP, but because that's
the pretty much standard range (except for people playing Precision,
KS, etc.), it didn't occur to me to do it.
This was the last board my partner and I played in the next-to-last
round of a Swiss event yesterday. My partner opened 1NT, and I bid 2NT
with 8 HCP and 3=2=4=4 distribution. Personally, I would have passed
1NT with partner's hand; 16 HCP is in the middle of the range, there
isn't a runnable suit, and there aren't any decent intermediates (10s,
9s, etc.). Partner did bid 3NT. The hand wound up depending on a
finesse; onside, there are two overtricks, offside, it's down 1. It
was offside, for -50. The contract at the other table was 1NT, making
1 for +90, a 140 point swing for -5 IMPs. We lost the match by 2 IMPs.
The difference in IMPs and concomitant VPs wouldn't have changed our
overall standings, though.

So you made a sharp but reasonable gametry
Your partner made a sharp but reasonable accept
And you ended up in a sharp game that had good chances
Next!

Co Wiersma

[Fred.]

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Fred.

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

Playing 15-17 NT, what else would you open? After 1D-1M
what's your rebid?
I'm used to playing 2NT invitation as highly invitational,
and pass only if ashamed of my 1NT opening.

I should have specified that the range is 15-17 HCP, but because that's
the pretty much standard range (except for people playing Precision,
KS, etc.), it didn't occur to me to do it.
This was the last board my partner and I played in the next-to-last
round of a Swiss event yesterday. My partner opened 1NT, and I bid 2NT
with 8 HCP and 3=2=4=4 distribution. Personally, I would have passed
1NT with partner's hand; 16 HCP is in the middle of the range, there
isn't a runnable suit, and there aren't any decent intermediates (10s,
9s, etc.). Partner did bid 3NT. The hand wound up depending on a
finesse; onside, there are two overtricks, offside, it's down 1. It
was offside, for -50. The contract at the other table was 1NT, making
1 for +90, a 140 point swing for -5 IMPs. We lost the match by 2 IMPs.
The difference in IMPs and concomitant VPs wouldn't have changed our
overall standings, though.

My own view is that partner shouldn't bid 2NT unless
expecting to make facing a hand in the middle of the
range. 17 point hands should be considerably rarer
than 16 point hand. However, since you were in for
overtricks if the finesse won, it sounds as if partner
had a source of tricks as well as the 8 HCP.

Though it's hard to tell the exact percentage making
it sounds as if you expect to gain IMP's in the long run
by bidding 3NT on the combined hands.

It sounds as if your best strategy for winning the match was
to be in the same contract as the opponents, while that of the
opponents was to be in a different contract, whatever the odds.
How best to bid on the hand in mid match seems to have little
bearing on this.

Fred.

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Fred.
My own view is that partner shouldn't bid 2NT unless
expecting to make facing a hand in the middle of the
range. 17 point hands should be considerably rarer
than 16 point hand. However, since you were in for
overtricks if the finesse won, it sounds as if partner
had a source of tricks as well as the 8 HCP.

I did have a five-card minor headed by KJ; that is the reason I invited.

[Barry Margolin]

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Fred.
My own view is that partner shouldn't bid 2NT unless
expecting to make facing a hand in the middle of the
range. 17 point hands should be considerably rarer
than 16 point hand. However, since you were in for
overtricks if the finesse won, it sounds as if partner
had a source of tricks as well as the 8 HCP.

I did have a five-card minor headed by KJ; that is the reason I invited.

You said your shape was 3=2=4=4. Where's the 5-card minor?

Anyway, you said in another post that game was on a finesse. At IMPs
you're supposed to bid 40% games when vulnerable, 45% games when
non-vul. Either way, this means you bid any game that depends on a
finesse.

Although I think this assumes that when the game doesn't make it's only
down 1 undoubled. If you'll go down 2 when it fails, the odds have to be
a little better.

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Barry Margolin

Post by Michelle Steiner
I did have a five-card minor headed by KJ; that is the reason I invited.

You said your shape was 3=2=4=4. Where's the 5-card minor?

Typo; it's clubs.

Post by Barry Margolin
Anyway, you said in another post that game was on a finesse. At IMPs
you're supposed to bid 40% games when vulnerable, 45% games when
non-vul. Either way, this means you bid any game that depends on a
finesse.

True, but there was no way for opener to have any clue from the
bidding. All she was sure of is that I had 8 or 9 HCP and no 4-card
major.

Post by Barry Margolin
Although I think this assumes that when the game doesn't make it's only
down 1 undoubled. If you'll go down 2 when it fails, the odds have to
be a little better.

Well, at our table, it was down 1, but at the other table, they made
only 1 NT, so if they had bid game, it would have been down 2 assuming
the same play as they had at 1 NT.

[Barry Margolin]

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Barry Margolin

Post by Michelle Steiner
I did have a five-card minor headed by KJ; that is the reason I invited.

You said your shape was 3=2=4=4. Where's the 5-card minor?

Typo; it's clubs.

Post by Barry Margolin
Anyway, you said in another post that game was on a finesse. At IMPs
you're supposed to bid 40% games when vulnerable, 45% games when
non-vul. Either way, this means you bid any game that depends on a
finesse.

True, but there was no way for opener to have any clue from the
bidding. All she was sure of is that I had 8 or 9 HCP and no 4-card
major.

Of course. I didn't say you can determine what the game percentage was.
In fact, it's practically impossible to know on auctions like 1NT-2NT
and 1NT-3NT.

Sometimes you'll have auctions like 1NT-3NT, where both of you are
maximum for your bids. But it turns out you have xx opposite xx, and the
opponents take the first 5 or 6 tricks in that suit. Does that mean you
shouldn't have bid game? Of course not. It just means that standard
bidding doesn have a method to discover this flaw. And even if it did,
you might not use it -- maybe they won't lead that suit.

But when you're looking at the hands after the fact, trying to decide if
game should have been bid, if you see that it just depends on a finesse
then you're supposed to bid it.

[RonKalf]

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Fred.
My own view is that partner shouldn't bid 2NT unless
expecting to make facing a hand in the middle of the
range. 17 point hands should be considerably rarer
than 16 point hand. However, since you were in for
overtricks if the finesse won, it sounds as if partner
had a source of tricks as well as the 8 HCP.

I did have a five-card minor headed by KJ; that is the reason I invited.

An earlier post said 3244. I count KJxxx one point and would invite AND
accept the invite with the other hand.

[Derek Turner]

Post by Michelle Steiner
I should have specified that the range is 15-17 HCP, but because that's
the pretty much standard range

On your side of the Atlantic, maybe. Over here is is almost invariably
12-14. I know you Americans find it difficult to imagine a world outside
your borders but this IS an international group... :)

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Derek Turner

Post by Michelle Steiner
I should have specified that the range is 15-17 HCP, but because that's
the pretty much standard range

On your side of the Atlantic, maybe. Over here is is almost invariably
12-14. I know you Americans find it difficult to imagine a world outside
your borders but this IS an international group... :)

*laugh* Well, although I know there's a world outside my borders, I
didn't know that that world included 12-14 HCP opening 1NT. Now I
know. ;)

[Derek Turner]

*laugh* Well, although I know there's a world outside my borders, I
didn't know that that world included 12-14 HCP opening 1NT. Now I
know.;)

Standard English Acol as universally taught in beginners classes here.
Not sure if other English-speaking countries use it? Australia? South
Africa? Please let us know, folks.

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Derek Turner

*laugh* Well, although I know there's a world outside my borders, I
didn't know that that world included 12-14 HCP opening 1NT. Now I
know.;)

Standard English Acol as universally taught in beginners classes here.
Not sure if other English-speaking countries use it? Australia? South
Africa? Please let us know, folks.

I assume that you are excluding North America from that question. ;)

[Co Wiersma]

Post by Derek Turner

Post by Michelle Steiner
I should have specified that the range is 15-17 HCP, but because that's
the pretty much standard range

On your side of the Atlantic, maybe. Over here is is almost invariably
12-14. I know you Americans find it difficult to imagine a world outside
your borders but this IS an international group... :)

AFAIK most European bridgeplayers play either 14-16 or 15-17 NT range

[Derek Turner]

Post by Co Wiersma
AFAIK most European bridgeplayers play either 14-16 or 15-17 NT range

Which raises the obvious question of whether you (or we) consider the
British to be European :)

[Adam Lea]

Post by Derek Turner

Post by Co Wiersma
AFAIK most European bridgeplayers play either 14-16 or 15-17 NT range

Which raises the obvious question of whether you (or we) consider the
British to be European :)

I do, since Britain is part of Europe, regardless of Brexit.

[Derek Turner]

Post by Michelle Steiner
I should have specified that the range is 15-17 HCP, but because that's
the pretty much standard range (except for people playing Precision,
KS, etc.), it didn't occur to me to do it.

FWIW (which probably isn't much) I think this is a horrible 16-count for
NT (and there is no 5-card suit). So in my version of Precision I
degrade this and open a 13-15 1NT instead of 1C. With 8HCP partner
passes. Some you win, some you lose, if that finesse had been right then
I would have been wrong IYSWIM :)

[Fred.]

Post by Derek Turner

Post by Michelle Steiner
I should have specified that the range is 15-17 HCP, but because that's
the pretty much standard range (except for people playing Precision,
KS, etc.), it didn't occur to me to do it.

FWIW (which probably isn't much) I think this is a horrible 16-count for
NT (and there is no 5-card suit). So in my version of Precision I
degrade this and open a 13-15 1NT instead of 1C. With 8HCP partner
passes. Some you win, some you lose, if that finesse had been right then
I would have been wrong IYSWIM :)

Or it's a very good 16-count for NT :-)

Give partner the right 6 HCP, xx-xx-xxx-KQJxxx, and 3NT is a laydown.

I don't think either of us knows how it will do on average, but I
hate demoting any hand with 8 control points.

Fred.

[Derek Turner]

Post by Fred.
Or it's a very good 16-count for NT

Well, if playing Rubber...

[Fred.]

Post by Derek Turner

Post by Fred.
Or it's a very good 16-count for NT

Well, if playing Rubber...

I didn't say it could or should be bid. I was just pointing
our that this sort of hand can be quire valuable in a NT
contract despite the lack of fillers and the flat shape.

Fred.

[Adam Lea]

Post by Fred.

Post by Derek Turner

Post by Michelle Steiner
I should have specified that the range is 15-17 HCP, but because that's
the pretty much standard range (except for people playing Precision,
KS, etc.), it didn't occur to me to do it.

FWIW (which probably isn't much) I think this is a horrible 16-count for
NT (and there is no 5-card suit). So in my version of Precision I
degrade this and open a 13-15 1NT instead of 1C. With 8HCP partner
passes. Some you win, some you lose, if that finesse had been right then
I would have been wrong IYSWIM :)

Or it's a very good 16-count for NT :-)
Give partner the right 6 HCP, xx-xx-xxx-KQJxxx, and 3NT is a laydown.

Just trying to think of the last time partner put down the perfect dummy
for my hand. :-)

You have to be a bit careful with the hand picturing. Yes there may be
hands where a certain contract is laydown but what is the probability of
partner holding one of those hands? In magazine bidding problems,
partner often has the wonderful hand for your bidding. In the real world
it is (mostly) a different story.

[RonKalf]

Post by Derek Turner

Post by Michelle Steiner
I should have specified that the range is 15-17 HCP, but because that's
the pretty much standard range (except for people playing Precision,
KS, etc.), it didn't occur to me to do it.

FWIW (which probably isn't much) I think this is a horrible 16-count for
NT (and there is no 5-card suit). So in my version of Precision I degrade
this and open a 13-15 1NT instead of 1C. With 8HCP partner passes. Some
you win, some you lose, if that finesse had been right then I would have
been wrong IYSWIM :)

It is a good 16 count. Opening 1NT doesn't mean you have to play in NT.

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Fred.

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

Playing 15-17 NT, what else would you open? After 1D-1M
what's your rebid?
I'm used to playing 2NT invitation as highly invitational,
and pass only if ashamed of my 1NT opening.

I should have specified that the range is 15-17 HCP, but because that's
the pretty much standard range (except for people playing Precision,
KS, etc.), it didn't occur to me to do it.
This was the last board my partner and I played in the next-to-last
round of a Swiss event yesterday. My partner opened 1NT, and I bid 2NT
with 8 HCP and 3=2=4=4 distribution. Personally, I would have passed
1NT with partner's hand; 16 HCP is in the middle of the range, there

We had a long thread a while back about inviting or not inviting
game and it was suggested there by a lot of correspondents that they
wouldn't invite with this hand. Then you would play 1N like your
opponents.

doug

Post by Michelle Steiner
isn't a runnable suit, and there aren't any decent intermediates (10s,
9s, etc.). Partner did bid 3NT. The hand wound up depending on a
finesse; onside, there are two overtricks, offside, it's down 1. It
was offside, for -50. The contract at the other table was 1NT, making
1 for +90, a 140 point swing for -5 IMPs. We lost the match by 2 IMPs.
The difference in IMPs and concomitant VPs wouldn't have changed our
overall standings, though.

[p***@infi.net]

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Fred.

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

Playing 15-17 NT, what else would you open? After 1D-1M
what's your rebid?
I'm used to playing 2NT invitation as highly invitational,
and pass only if ashamed of my 1NT opening.

I should have specified that the range is 15-17 HCP, but because that's
the pretty much standard range (except for people playing Precision,
KS, etc.), it didn't occur to me to do it.
This was the last board my partner and I played in the next-to-last
round of a Swiss event yesterday. My partner opened 1NT, and I bid 2NT
with 8 HCP and 3=2=4=4 distribution. Personally, I would have passed
1NT with partner's hand; 16 HCP is in the middle of the range, there

We had a long thread a while back about inviting or not inviting
game and it was suggested there by a lot of correspondents that they
wouldn't invite with this hand. Then you would play 1N like your
opponents.
doug

Post by Michelle Steiner
isn't a runnable suit, and there aren't any decent intermediates (10s,
9s, etc.). Partner did bid 3NT. The hand wound up depending on a
finesse; onside, there are two overtricks, offside, it's down 1. It
was offside, for -50. The contract at the other table was 1NT, making
1 for +90, a 140 point swing for -5 IMPs. We lost the match by 2 IMPs.
The difference in IMPs and concomitant VPs wouldn't have changed our
overall standings, though.

I wouldn't invite non-vul with 2344 shape, but later Michelle claimed she had a 5 card minor, which is exactly the hand for an invitational 2NT, if that's what the bid means. And vulnerable you want to invite with any 8-count. Opener does best to accept with anything more than a dead minimum.

But in any case I recommend trying to avoid 2NT. Given a choice, inviter should lean toward passing/stopping at 1NT while acceptor should lean HEAVILY toward continuing to 3NT. 2NT is essentially the worst commonly played self-inflicted contract in bridge.

[Adam Lea]

Post by p***@infi.net

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Fred.

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

Playing 15-17 NT, what else would you open? After 1D-1M
what's your rebid?
I'm used to playing 2NT invitation as highly invitational,
and pass only if ashamed of my 1NT opening.

I should have specified that the range is 15-17 HCP, but because that's
the pretty much standard range (except for people playing Precision,
KS, etc.), it didn't occur to me to do it.
This was the last board my partner and I played in the next-to-last
round of a Swiss event yesterday. My partner opened 1NT, and I bid 2NT
with 8 HCP and 3=2=4=4 distribution. Personally, I would have passed
1NT with partner's hand; 16 HCP is in the middle of the range, there

We had a long thread a while back about inviting or not inviting
game and it was suggested there by a lot of correspondents that they
wouldn't invite with this hand. Then you would play 1N like your
opponents.
doug

Post by Michelle Steiner
isn't a runnable suit, and there aren't any decent intermediates (10s,
9s, etc.). Partner did bid 3NT. The hand wound up depending on a
finesse; onside, there are two overtricks, offside, it's down 1. It
was offside, for -50. The contract at the other table was 1NT, making
1 for +90, a 140 point swing for -5 IMPs. We lost the match by 2 IMPs.
The difference in IMPs and concomitant VPs wouldn't have changed our
overall standings, though.

I wouldn't invite non-vul with 2344 shape, but later Michelle claimed she had a 5 card minor, which is exactly the hand for an invitational 2NT, if that's what the bid means. And vulnerable you want to invite with any 8-count. Opener does best to accept with anything more than a dead minimum.
But in any case I recommend trying to avoid 2NT. Given a choice, inviter should lean toward passing/stopping at 1NT while acceptor should lean HEAVILY toward continuing to 3NT. 2NT is essentially the worst commonly played self-inflicted contract in bridge.

No worse that any other contract where an invite to game was declined.

[RonKalf]

Post by Michelle Steiner
This was the last board my partner and I played in the next-to-last
round of a Swiss event yesterday. My partner opened 1NT, and I bid 2NT
with 8 HCP and 3=2=4=4 distribution. Personally, I would have passed
1NT with partner's hand; 16 HCP is in the middle of the range, there
isn't a runnable suit, and there aren't any decent intermediates (10s,
9s, etc.). Partner did bid 3NT. The hand wound up depending on a
finesse; onside, there are two overtricks, offside, it's down 1. It
was offside, for -50. The contract at the other table was 1NT, making
1 for +90, a 140 point swing for -5 IMPs. We lost the match by 2 IMPs.
The difference in IMPs and concomitant VPs wouldn't have changed our
overall standings, though.

A good old rule that seems to have been forgotten: don't invite if your
maximum point count is 25.

[richlp]

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

As everybody else, I can't imagine anything but 1NT (assuming a 15-17 range which I know is what you play)

Unlike everybody else I pass 2NT. I'm a contrarian regarding the value of an Ace for no-trump. The hand has only 4 tricks and, unless it has very good intermediates (which aren't shown) little prospect for developing extra tricks. A hand from partner with the potential for five tricks is most likely a game bid rather than an invite.

[Co Wiersma]

Post by richlp

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

As everybody else, I can't imagine anything but 1NT (assuming a 15-17 range which I know is what you play)
Unlike everybody else I pass 2NT. I'm a contrarian regarding the value of an Ace for no-trump. The hand has only 4 tricks and, unless it has very good intermediates (which aren't shown) little prospect for developing extra tricks. A hand from partner with the potential for five tricks is most likely a game bid rather than an invite.

4 very solid tricks is more then average for a 1NT opening bid

Give partner something like
Kx
xxx
xxx
KQxxx
And I very much want to be in game

But then
Kxx
Kxx
xxx
Kxxx
Now I dont

So for me its hard to decide between pass and 3NT

Co Wiersma

[Will in New Haven]

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?

If I am playing strong NT, I open 1NT.

Post by Michelle Steiner
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

I bid 3NT. You didn't give the vulnerability but this decision isn't close enough for it to matter.

[KWSchneider]

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

This is the "aces and spaces" fallacy. Having done my fair share of simulations over the years, the Ace is undervalued in notrump, but not to the same extent as in suit play. Either way, this is a 17 point equivalent hand and MUST be opened 1N in any strong notrump system that includes the 17 point range.

Assuming that 2N is an invite, you have a MAX and hence an automatic acceptance. And if 2N is a transfer to 3D, this is a super-accept with slam aspirations. I would bid 3C and then cue-bid 3H after the 3D correction.

Kurt

[Eddie Grove]

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?

First off, I realize I'm following up to a nearly 2 year old post. I
haven't thought about bridge seriously in 20 years, considering getting
back to it, have been reading old posts.


This reminds me of a story from around 1990. I held an aces and spaces
hand in a sectional MP game, playing 1n=15-17, carefully managed the
auction so that partner would declare NT, and it turned out he held 4
queens and spaces. However, all the kings were with the guy I caused not
to have the opening lead. Ouch. Rather than calculate the odds of such a
debacle, I figured I should just learn my lesson and open 1N next time.


Eddie

[Eddie Grove]

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?

First off, I realize I'm following up to a nearly 2 year old post. I
haven't thought about bridge seriously in 20 years, considering getting
back to it, have been reading old posts.


This reminds me of a story from around 1990. I held an aces and spaces
hand in a sectional MP game, playing 1n=15-17, carefully managed the
auction so that partner would declare NT, and it turned out he held 4
queens and spaces. However, all the kings were with the guy I caused not
to have the opening lead. Ouch. Rather than calculate the odds of such a
debacle, I figured I should just learn my lesson and open 1N next time.


Eddie

[Michael Angelo Ravera]

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

With Most partners, I would open 1D because 16 is above my 10/11-14 1NT opening range.
If I played 14-16, I might upgrade this one to whatever the stronger opener is.
If I played 14/15-17/18, I would open this 1NT. What would do otherwise?
This hand is *WAY* better than any average 14/15-17/18, so I would accept all invites.
The only question for me is what you would like to play, if partner shows a game force with shortage in one of your 3-card suits.

[p***@infi.net]

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

No question I open 1NT. What's more, simulations show this to be a good hand, not a poor one, so I certainly raise 2NT to 3NT. No guarantees, but I find that with good controls the opps have trouble finding 5 tricks before I manage 9.

[t***@att.net]

When there's a choice between a limited bid and an unlimited bid, the limited bid is generally better. I'd open 1NT.

[Steve Willner]

Post by Michelle Steiner
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?

Yes, 1NT if playing 15-17.

Post by Michelle Steiner
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

As regular readers will know, I wouldn't willingly agree to play this as
a natural invitation. If I've somehow been forced to do so, it's never
right to play 2NT at IMPs, so 3NT. If vulnerable, and partner is any
good (but then why are we playing this method?), I'd be tempted to pass
because partner can see the vulnerability too and would have already bid
game if it were going to be good, but I'd still bid 3NT because that's
what the odds favor.

If 2NT shows diamonds, as I normally play, then I'd bid 3C to show that
I like diamonds quite a lot. If partner has a weak hand, he will play
the 3D contract. That's a good thing because this hand has no lead
value, as with most hands that like diamonds. The situation would be
exactly the same if partner had bid 2S showing clubs: I like them, but
I'm happy for partner to declare if we play in the suit.

[Sandy Barnes]

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

Assuming 1NT means 15-17, it seems normal to make this call. I am not accepting any invitations.

[smn]

Post by Michelle Steiner
You have
Axx
Axx
Axxx
Axx
1. Do you bid 1NT? If not, what do you do?
2. If you bid 1NT, what do you do if partner bids 2NT?

I bid 1n and pass 2n smn