Support Partner's Hearts or Bid 1S?

[P***@yahoo.com]

I've been having a discussion with more than one partner about hands of the following shape:

(1) 5-3-4-1, five spades, three hearts, 7 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid 1S or bid 2H?

(2) 4-4-3-2, four spades, four hearts, 11 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid a limit raise in hearts or bid 1S?

Assume "normal 2/1" systems, and assume you don't play Flannery.

[Player]

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(1) 5-3-4-1, five spades, three hearts, 7 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid 1S or bid 2H?
(2) 4-4-3-2, four spades, four hearts, 11 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid a limit raise in hearts or bid 1S?
Assume "normal 2/1" systems, and assume you don't play Flannery.

Hand 1 it depends on the quality of the S suit.
Hand 2 show the H raise.

[KWSchneider]

Post by Player

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(1) 5-3-4-1, five spades, three hearts, 7 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid 1S or bid 2H?
(2) 4-4-3-2, four spades, four hearts, 11 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid a limit raise in hearts or bid 1S?
Assume "normal 2/1" systems, and assume you don't play Flannery.

Hand 1 it depends on the quality of the S suit.

Urban myth. It doesn't matter. I could argue that if I have 5s and only 7hcp, the hands should play a better partscore in spades if partner has the requisite 3card support, as I'll now have value in my otherwise worthless spades. Ergo, I bid 1S irrespective of my suit quality. This is more important in a limited opening system like a strong club, where I know we will not be landing in game with losers in the trump suit, and I can have the safe correction to 2H when I hear 1N or 2m from partner.

DD (ugh!) confirms that it doesn't matter (12-15opener with 35M opposite 7-8responder with 53M both make 8.52 tricks in each major - 1000 sims), so the 1S response offers the benefit[?] of finding a 54 spade fit.

Kurt

[Barry Margolin]

Post by KWSchneider

Post by Player

Post by P***@yahoo.com
I've been having a discussion with more than one partner about hands of
(1) 5-3-4-1, five spades, three hearts, 7 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid 1S or bid 2H?
(2) 4-4-3-2, four spades, four hearts, 11 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid a
limit raise in hearts or bid 1S?
Assume "normal 2/1" systems, and assume you don't play Flannery.

Hand 1 it depends on the quality of the S suit.

Urban myth. It doesn't matter. I could argue that if I have 5s and only 7hcp,
the hands should play a better partscore in spades if partner has the
requisite 3card support, as I'll now have value in my otherwise worthless
spades. Ergo, I bid 1S irrespective of my suit quality. This is more
important in a limited opening system like a strong club, where I know we
will not be landing in game with losers in the trump suit, and I can have the
safe correction to 2H when I hear 1N or 2m from partner.

Doesn't that also depend on partner routinely raising spades with 3-card
support, rather than bidding 1NT?

[KWSchneider]

Post by Barry Margolin

Post by KWSchneider

Post by Player

Post by P***@yahoo.com
I've been having a discussion with more than one partner about hands of
(1) 5-3-4-1, five spades, three hearts, 7 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid 1S
or bid 2H?
(2) 4-4-3-2, four spades, four hearts, 11 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid a
limit raise in hearts or bid 1S?
Assume "normal 2/1" systems, and assume you don't play Flannery.

Hand 1 it depends on the quality of the S suit.

Urban myth. It doesn't matter. I could argue that if I have 5s and only 7hcp,
the hands should play a better partscore in spades if partner has the
requisite 3card support, as I'll now have value in my otherwise worthless
spades. Ergo, I bid 1S irrespective of my suit quality. This is more
important in a limited opening system like a strong club, where I know we
will not be landing in game with losers in the trump suit, and I can have the
safe correction to 2H when I hear 1N or 2m from partner.

Doesn't that also depend on partner routinely raising spades with 3-card
support, rather than bidding 1NT?

True. My point is that 1S is the bid. If partner decides on 35[32] to bid 1N, then I'll raise to 2H. But partner may have 35[41] and support the spades instead of bidding 2m.

Kurt

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by KWSchneider

Post by Player

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(1) 5-3-4-1, five spades, three hearts, 7 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid 1S or bid 2H?
(2) 4-4-3-2, four spades, four hearts, 11 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid a limit raise in hearts or bid 1S?
Assume "normal 2/1" systems, and assume you don't play Flannery.

Hand 1 it depends on the quality of the S suit.

Urban myth. It doesn't matter. I could argue that if I have 5s and only 7hcp, the hands should play a better partscore in spades if partner has the requisite 3card support, as I'll now have value in my otherwise worthless spades. Ergo, I bid 1S irrespective of my suit quality. This is more important in a limited opening system like a strong club, where I know we will not be landing in game with losers in the trump suit, and I can have the safe correction to 2H when I hear 1N or 2m from partner.
DD (ugh!) confirms that it doesn't matter (12-15opener with 35M opposite 7-8responder with 53M both make 8.52 tricks in each major - 1000 sims), so the 1S response offers the benefit[?] of finding a 54 spade fit.
Kurt

It has got more to do with judging a heart game than playing in spades.
If you have an 8 loser hand and follow up with 3H it shows 3 card
support with good spades and lets partner judge between pass and 4H. If
you are not bidding 3H next then an immediate 2H is right.

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(1) 5-3-4-1, five spades, three hearts, 7 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid 1S or bid 2H?

Depends on the spade suit and whether I am prepared to raise a 2H rebid
to 3H. So with 8 losers I usually bid 1S, with 9 losers 2H.

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(2) 4-4-3-2, four spades, four hearts, 11 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid a limit raise in hearts or bid 1S?
Assume "normal 2/1" systems, and assume you don't play Flannery.

I play 2N as a raise to 3+ spades and would never consider anything
else. I would also recommend this as it releases 3S either to be a
mixed raise or a pre-empt depending on which fits with your general
style of bidding (ie do you like messing up the oppo or do you prefer to
be constructive and safe).

If 2N is a game raise I will not comment as I have no experience of
playing 3S as a limit raise so I do not know how often it leaves you
guessing on marginal raises.

[P***@yahoo.com]

Post by Lorne Anderson

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(1) 5-3-4-1, five spades, three hearts, 7 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid 1S or bid 2H?

Depends on the spade suit and whether I am prepared to raise a 2H rebid
to 3H. So with 8 losers I usually bid 1S, with 9 losers 2H.

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(2) 4-4-3-2, four spades, four hearts, 11 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid a limit raise in hearts or bid 1S?
Assume "normal 2/1" systems, and assume you don't play Flannery.

I play 2N as a raise to 3+ spades and would never consider anything
else. I would also recommend this as it releases 3S either to be a
mixed raise or a pre-empt depending on which fits with your general
style of bidding (ie do you like messing up the oppo or do you prefer to
be constructive and safe).
If 2N is a game raise I will not comment as I have no experience of
playing 3S as a limit raise so I do not know how often it leaves you
guessing on marginal raises.

I assume you mean "hearts" and not "spades" in your above note. We play Bergen raises (3D is the 10+ HCP limit raise in hearts), and Jacoby 2N (game force, four card support for hearts).

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by P***@yahoo.com

Post by Lorne Anderson

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(1) 5-3-4-1, five spades, three hearts, 7 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid 1S or bid 2H?

Depends on the spade suit and whether I am prepared to raise a 2H rebid
to 3H. So with 8 losers I usually bid 1S, with 9 losers 2H.

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(2) 4-4-3-2, four spades, four hearts, 11 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid a limit raise in hearts or bid 1S?
Assume "normal 2/1" systems, and assume you don't play Flannery.

I play 2N as a raise to 3+ spades and would never consider anything
else. I would also recommend this as it releases 3S either to be a
mixed raise or a pre-empt depending on which fits with your general
style of bidding (ie do you like messing up the oppo or do you prefer to
be constructive and safe).
If 2N is a game raise I will not comment as I have no experience of
playing 3S as a limit raise so I do not know how often it leaves you
guessing on marginal raises.

I assume you mean "hearts" and not "spades" in your above note. We play Bergen raises (3D is the 10+ HCP limit raise in hearts), and Jacoby 2N (game force, four card support for hearts).

I did mean hearts. Bergen has the benefit of releasing the raise to 3
for whatever you like but also uses 2 bids (I assume 3C is Bergen also)
that I use as a splinter raise to 3 - ie about 8-9 points which often
makes game opposite a good fitting minimum but lets you stop with wasted
values.

[p***@infi.net]

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(1) 5-3-4-1, five spades, three hearts, 7 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid 1S or bid 2H?
(2) 4-4-3-2, four spades, four hearts, 11 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid a limit raise in hearts or bid 1S?
Assume "normal 2/1" systems, and assume you don't play Flannery.

Support the hearts in both cases. Limited hands do best to make limited, descriptive bids quickly. The gains from doing so will greatly exceed the occasional superior fit in spades. When slam is possible, hunting for a better fit is worthwhile.

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(1) 5-3-4-1, five spades, three hearts, 7 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid 1S or bid 2H?

Bid 2H. The reason is simply seen if we present an auction where the
enemy come in.

1H P 1S 2C
P 3C ?

Partner had no obvious bid on the second round and now
you have to pass or overbid. Lucky, second hand didn't bid 4C.

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(2) 4-4-3-2, four spades, four hearts, 11 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid a limit raise in hearts or bid 1S?

Limit raise. If the spades had been 5 reasonable ones,
it would probably be a better description to show them and
then raise the hearts.

doug

[Player]

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(1) 5-3-4-1, five spades, three hearts, 7 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid 1S or bid 2H?

Bid 2H. The reason is simply seen if we present an auction where the
enemy come in.
1H P 1S 2C
P 3C ?
Partner had no obvious bid on the second round and now
you have to pass or overbid. Lucky, second hand didn't bid 4C.

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(2) 4-4-3-2, four spades, four hearts, 11 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid a limit raise in hearts or bid 1S?

Limit raise. If the spades had been 5 reasonable ones,
it would probably be a better description to show them and
then raise the hearts.
doug

Douggie, with AQJxx xxx ? ? I would much rather bid 1S.

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by Player

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(1) 5-3-4-1, five spades, three hearts, 7 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid 1S or bid 2H?

Bid 2H. The reason is simply seen if we present an auction where the
enemy come in.
1H P 1S 2C
P 3C ?
Partner had no obvious bid on the second round and now
you have to pass or overbid. Lucky, second hand didn't bid 4C.

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(2) 4-4-3-2, four spades, four hearts, 11 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid a limit raise in hearts or bid 1S?

Limit raise. If the spades had been 5 reasonable ones,
it would probably be a better description to show them and
then raise the hearts.

Douggie, with AQJxx xxx ? ? I would much rather bid 1S.

OK delete "probably", we certainly have enough values to bid twice.
Now that I think about it, the old idea of hands which are worth
one bid (say 5-9) and hands which are worth 2 bids (say 11-12)
and hands which are worth more seems to have gotten lost nowadays.
It seems too many bidding theorists have forgotten that bidding
structures need to take care of cases when the oppo get into
the auction. Tho we do occasionally talk about playing 2-handed
versus 4-handed methods.

doug

[KWSchneider]

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(1) 5-3-4-1, five spades, three hearts, 7 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid 1S or bid 2H?

Bid 2H. The reason is simply seen if we present an auction where the
enemy come in.
1H P 1S 2C
P 3C ?
Partner had no obvious bid on the second round and now
you have to pass or overbid. Lucky, second hand didn't bid 4C.

So the only argument is that we've let the advancer into the auction at the 2level (even though they may have gotten into the auction anyway when they hear a 1M-2M auction), in return for properly describing responder's hand for future auction decisions and the potential of finding a better 53 or even a 54 spade fit.

Let's call it for what it is, a pre-emptive call that sacrifices a potentially better contract and result. What happens when opener has something like a 4531 hand with 15 points and the auction proceeds 1H (P) 2H (3C)? What is his next move?

Kurt

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by KWSchneider

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(1) 5-3-4-1, five spades, three hearts, 7 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid 1S or bid 2H?

Bid 2H. The reason is simply seen if we present an auction where the
enemy come in.
1H P 1S 2C
P 3C ?
Partner had no obvious bid on the second round and now
you have to pass or overbid. Lucky, second hand didn't bid 4C.

So the only argument is that we've let the advancer into the auction at the 2level (even though they may have gotten into the auction anyway when they hear a 1M-2M auction), in return for properly describing responder's hand for future auction decisions and the potential of finding a better 53 or even a 54 spade fit.

No that's the wrong characterisation.
What we've done is get ourselves into situation where 3H is an overbid
and we can no longer bid 2H.

Post by KWSchneider
Let's call it for what it is, a pre-emptive call that sacrifices a potentially better contract and result.
What happens when opener has something like a 4531 hand with 15 points and the auction proceeds 1H (P) 2H (3C)?
What is his next move?

3D is available as a trial bid and 3H as competitive.
If the interference does not arise then 2S is available as a trial bid.

doug

[David Goldfarb]

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(1) 5-3-4-1, five spades, three hearts, 7 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid 1S or bid 2H?
(2) 4-4-3-2, four spades, four hearts, 11 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid a
limit raise in hearts or bid 1S?

There's an old maxim: "support with support". 2H and limit raise,
respectively.

[peter cheung]

bid heart in both cases.

the first case is obvious your best chance is for your partner to decide to bid game or not and if game is there it would be 4h. if you do not bid 2h now what are you going to do if opponent bid 3c or 4c.

the second case is either your pd open with a minimum 11 hcp point hand and play 3h, a 13 playing point hand and play 4h or a 20 playing point hand and in slam. No chance for a better contract in spade. again if you bid spade what are you going to do if they bid 4c

[smn]

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(1) 5-3-4-1, five spades, three hearts, 7 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid 1S or bid 2H?
(2) 4-4-3-2, four spades, four hearts, 11 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid a limit raise in hearts or bid 1S?
Assume "normal 2/1" systems, and assume you don't play Flannery.

hello, Well the first one is a 1 bid hand so 2h is standard : the second is invitational with 4 hearts so the 3h limit raise (4 card support ) is also called for ( and it keeps opponents out ) . smn

[Fred.]

Post by P***@yahoo.com
(1) 5-3-4-1, five spades, three hearts, 7 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid 1S or bid 2H?
(2) 4-4-3-2, four spades, four hearts, 11 HCPs -- Over 1H, do you bid a limit raise in hearts or bid 1S?
Assume "normal 2/1" systems, and assume you don't play Flannery.

As Kurt pointed out, the main advantage of a spade response
comes on those rare occasions when opener is 4-5 in the majors.
In return the sequences where opener responds 1S and makes a
subsequent heart raise or preference become less well defined.

It's useful to know that the auctions

1H 1S
1m 2H

and

1H 1S
2H 3H

are based on doubleton support.

Fred.