missed slam 1

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

The final round of the monthly cross-imp competition, and the last chance to get a positive imp score. I held this hand as East:

J9
AK62
KT
AKQJ4

I don't like opening two suited hands with a strong artificial two bid, as I end up trying to show both suits starting at the three level, so I decided to treat it as a hand suitable for reverse bidding. We were playing 5 card majors (1C could be two), strong 1NT, Benj-Acol two openings.

N E S W
P
P 1C P 1S
P 2H P 2S
P 4S AP

Partner held:

AKQT4
T84
982
97

Unfortunately 6NT by me is an excellent contract which we missed. I guess I could have opened 2NT, but as the auction went, who should have done more?

[ais523]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The final round of the monthly cross-imp competition, and the last
J9
AK62
KT
AKQJ4
I don't like opening two suited hands with a strong artificial two
bid, as I end up trying to show both suits starting at the three
level, so I decided to treat it as a hand suitable for reverse
bidding. We were playing 5 card majors (1C could be two), strong 1NT,
Benj-Acol two openings.
N E S W
P
P 1C P 1S
P 2H P 2S
P 4S AP
AKQT4
T84
982
97
Unfortunately 6NT by me is an excellent contract which we missed. I
guess I could have opened 2NT, but as the auction went, who should
have done more?

6NT is only ever going to be reachable if you show the diamond stop.
West can't dare to go for slam without knowing that every suit is likely
to be under control, and you have to bid notrumps yourself to avoid
wrong-siding the contract.

What's the meaning of 2S here? Obviously it shows only spades, but how
strong is it? I'd personally play it as showing a minimum, in which case
there's no way the slam is reachable (as East won't be expecting that
much strength, and won't be able to bid notrumps naturally as forcing).
If you play your reverse bids strong enough that a 2S reply would be
game-forcing (or at least rebid-promising or forcing to three) and
show a hand fairly like this one, then East should continue with 2NT
showing a diamond stop and spade tolerance; that makes it plausible
that the slam will be reached. (Obviously, East can't bid 2NT unless
the partnership has agreed that it's forcing!)

West is clearly strong enough for an artificial game force after hearing
the reverse (9 HCP opposite a reverse can nearly always make game in
something). When playing fourth suit forcing, that would be 3D. With 21
HCP (about 5 more than the reverse shows), East would want to make a
slam try upon hearing that, but it's unclear what the bid should be
(as 3NT would be interpreted as a signoff). A decent guess would be 4NT,
which by inference has to be a slam try in notrumps (as it bypasses 3NT
and clearly no suit has been agreed after the bidding sequence P, 1C;
1S, 2H; 3D, 4NT), but you might have to do some guessing to interpret
the answer!

I'm still not sure you get to slam after this; West has a good shape for
notrumps and a mostly solid suit, both of which are helpful, but 9
HCP is close to a minimum for a game force opposite a reverse, and
notrump games and slams are often found via HCP counting, so West may
just be happy to play at the game level. I don't think that with a
bidding system like this, there's enough time to find all the
information you'd need (e.g. East having the Jack of Spades is
suprisingly relevant). If West's willing to continue over 4NT, though,
slam seems likely (whatever question 4NT is interpreted as asking, the
most likely reply is "1", which East will be happy to hear; over 3D,
4NT can hardly be asking about spades, and East has the King of each
other suit, so East knows that West's count is likely to contain only
aces; and 4NT can hardly be interpreted as "two places to play" over a
fourth-suit force, because you don't normally answer a question with the
same question, so it must be some sort of ace ask or key-card ask).

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by ais523

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The final round of the monthly cross-imp competition, and the last
J9
AK62
KT
AKQJ4
I don't like opening two suited hands with a strong artificial two
bid, as I end up trying to show both suits starting at the three
level, so I decided to treat it as a hand suitable for reverse
bidding. We were playing 5 card majors (1C could be two), strong 1NT,
Benj-Acol two openings.
N E S W
P
P 1C P 1S
P 2H P 2S
P 4S AP
AKQT4
T84
982
97
Unfortunately 6NT by me is an excellent contract which we missed. I
guess I could have opened 2NT, but as the auction went, who should
have done more?

6NT is only ever going to be reachable if you show the diamond stop.
West can't dare to go for slam without knowing that every suit is likely
to be under control, and you have to bid notrumps yourself to avoid
wrong-siding the contract.
What's the meaning of 2S here? Obviously it shows only spades, but how
strong is it? I'd personally play it as showing a minimum, in which case
there's no way the slam is reachable (as East won't be expecting that
much strength, and won't be able to bid notrumps naturally as forcing).
If you play your reverse bids strong enough that a 2S reply would be
game-forcing (or at least rebid-promising or forcing to three) and
show a hand fairly like this one, then East should continue with 2NT
showing a diamond stop and spade tolerance; that makes it plausible
that the slam will be reached. (Obviously, East can't bid 2NT unless
the partnership has agreed that it's forcing!)
West is clearly strong enough for an artificial game force after hearing
the reverse (9 HCP opposite a reverse can nearly always make game in
something). When playing fourth suit forcing, that would be 3D. With 21
HCP (about 5 more than the reverse shows), East would want to make a
slam try upon hearing that, but it's unclear what the bid should be
(as 3NT would be interpreted as a signoff). A decent guess would be 4NT,
which by inference has to be a slam try in notrumps (as it bypasses 3NT
and clearly no suit has been agreed after the bidding sequence P, 1C;
1S, 2H; 3D, 4NT), but you might have to do some guessing to interpret
the answer!
I'm still not sure you get to slam after this; West has a good shape for
notrumps and a mostly solid suit, both of which are helpful, but 9
HCP is close to a minimum for a game force opposite a reverse, and
notrump games and slams are often found via HCP counting, so West may
just be happy to play at the game level. I don't think that with a
bidding system like this, there's enough time to find all the
information you'd need (e.g. East having the Jack of Spades is
suprisingly relevant). If West's willing to continue over 4NT, though,
slam seems likely (whatever question 4NT is interpreted as asking, the
most likely reply is "1", which East will be happy to hear; over 3D,
4NT can hardly be asking about spades, and East has the King of each
other suit, so East knows that West's count is likely to contain only
aces; and 4NT can hardly be interpreted as "two places to play" over a
fourth-suit force, because you don't normally answer a question with the
same question, so it must be some sort of ace ask or key-card ask).
--
ais523

Thanks for your insight. It makes sense, but I'm not sure if myself or partner would be able to work all that out at the table. My partner afterward said that I was too conservative and should have opened a strong two bid*, or, as the auction progressed, bid Blackwood after her 2S bid on the basis that it is unlikely that the five level is unsafe if there are insufficient key cards opposite. With the actual hands, Blackwood would immediately reveal the near solid spade suit opposite, my SJ then being like gold, I can then count 12 tricks and confidently bid 6NT. It happens the DA was onside so the slam is cold even if partner ends up in 6S.

*There appeared to be two issues, 1) partner never expected me to be that strong, and said she interpreted my reverse as holding a maximum of 19HCP, and 2) I never considered after the 2S bid that partner would hold such a good suit. Partner said her 2S bid showed the 5+ spade length, not necessarily a minimum hand, I thought 2S would likely be something like 5-7 HCP i.e. not interested in game opposite a minimum reverse. There is version of Lebensohl which can be played opposite a reverse, maybe that might have helped here.

[Co Wiersma]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by ais523

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The final round of the monthly cross-imp competition, and the last
J9
AK62
KT
AKQJ4
I don't like opening two suited hands with a strong artificial two
bid, as I end up trying to show both suits starting at the three
level, so I decided to treat it as a hand suitable for reverse
bidding. We were playing 5 card majors (1C could be two), strong 1NT,
Benj-Acol two openings.
N E S W
P
P 1C P 1S
P 2H P 2S
P 4S AP
AKQT4
T84
982
97
Unfortunately 6NT by me is an excellent contract which we missed. I
guess I could have opened 2NT, but as the auction went, who should
have done more?

6NT is only ever going to be reachable if you show the diamond stop.
West can't dare to go for slam without knowing that every suit is likely
to be under control, and you have to bid notrumps yourself to avoid
wrong-siding the contract.
What's the meaning of 2S here? Obviously it shows only spades, but how
strong is it? I'd personally play it as showing a minimum, in which case
there's no way the slam is reachable (as East won't be expecting that
much strength, and won't be able to bid notrumps naturally as forcing).
If you play your reverse bids strong enough that a 2S reply would be
game-forcing (or at least rebid-promising or forcing to three) and
show a hand fairly like this one, then East should continue with 2NT
showing a diamond stop and spade tolerance; that makes it plausible
that the slam will be reached. (Obviously, East can't bid 2NT unless
the partnership has agreed that it's forcing!)
West is clearly strong enough for an artificial game force after hearing
the reverse (9 HCP opposite a reverse can nearly always make game in
something). When playing fourth suit forcing, that would be 3D. With 21
HCP (about 5 more than the reverse shows), East would want to make a
slam try upon hearing that, but it's unclear what the bid should be
(as 3NT would be interpreted as a signoff). A decent guess would be 4NT,
which by inference has to be a slam try in notrumps (as it bypasses 3NT
and clearly no suit has been agreed after the bidding sequence P, 1C;
1S, 2H; 3D, 4NT), but you might have to do some guessing to interpret
the answer!
I'm still not sure you get to slam after this; West has a good shape for
notrumps and a mostly solid suit, both of which are helpful, but 9
HCP is close to a minimum for a game force opposite a reverse, and
notrump games and slams are often found via HCP counting, so West may
just be happy to play at the game level. I don't think that with a
bidding system like this, there's enough time to find all the
information you'd need (e.g. East having the Jack of Spades is
suprisingly relevant). If West's willing to continue over 4NT, though,
slam seems likely (whatever question 4NT is interpreted as asking, the
most likely reply is "1", which East will be happy to hear; over 3D,
4NT can hardly be asking about spades, and East has the King of each
other suit, so East knows that West's count is likely to contain only
aces; and 4NT can hardly be interpreted as "two places to play" over a
fourth-suit force, because you don't normally answer a question with the
same question, so it must be some sort of ace ask or key-card ask).
--
ais523

Thanks for your insight. It makes sense, but I'm not sure if myself or partner would be able to work all that out at the table. My partner afterward said that I was too conservative and should have opened a strong two bid*, or, as the auction progressed, bid Blackwood after her 2S bid on the basis that it is unlikely that the five level is unsafe if there are insufficient key cards opposite. With the actual hands, Blackwood would immediately reveal the near solid spade suit opposite, my SJ then being like gold, I can then count 12 tricks and confidently bid 6NT. It happens the DA was onside so the slam is cold even if partner ends up in 6S.
*There appeared to be two issues, 1) partner never expected me to be that strong, and said she interpreted my reverse as holding a maximum of 19HCP, and 2) I never considered after the 2S bid that partner would hold such a good suit. Partner said her 2S bid showed the 5+ spade length, not necessarily a minimum hand, I thought 2S would likely be something like 5-7 HCP i.e. not interested in game opposite a minimum reverse. There is version of Lebensohl which can be played opposite a reverse, maybe that might have helped here.

The problem is not "who could have done more"
But the problem is the difference in opinion about the bidding system

In a good simple bidding system
2S is a sign-off
So with 5 HCP and a sixcard spades, one can bid 1S and then 2S and play
there if partner is minimum

Of cause world class players may well play system where 2S is one round
forcing or even totally artificial
But I think such a system need very detailed further agreements

About the slam, I would not reach it
I would open 1C and end up in 3NT aftr reverse and 4th suit forcing
Or I would open 2NT and end up in 3NT after a tranfer to spades
The only way I see slam bid is if you upgrade your hand and show at
least 22+ points

Co Wiersma

[Jean Pierre Fontenille]

.......I guess I could have opened 2NT............
that is the answer.

[d***@pointerstop.ca]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
I don't like opening two suited hands with a strong artificial two bid, as I end up trying to show both suits starting at the three level, so I decided to treat it as a hand suitable for reverse bidding. We were playing 5 card majors (1C could be two), strong 1NT, Benj-Acol two openings.

Ugh. Play Acol, or play 5-card majors. This system is horrible (personally, I despise Benji's waste of a 2D bid).

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Unfortunately 6NT by me is an excellent contract which we missed. I guess I could have opened 2NT, but as the auction went, who should have done more?

You've underbid twice. Not starting 2NT misled your partner (I agree with her that you've suggested no more than 19 HCP). Bidding a mere 2H suggests that you're on a minimum reverse. Then your partner underbid AND failed to support your hearts! My Acol partners all raise with three card support of a possible 4-card suit. I think her correct bids (for values of "correct" that involve not trusting each other...) are both a jump to game, since she surely can't expect you to take 2NT as forcing (over the reverse, I'd expect that to be as weak as 5 hcp) and isn't going to make an artificial new-suit bid (I rather like 3C...). So, she should either bid 3N or 4H, which should end the bidding.

I wouldn't expect to get to this slam, either. I'd expect:

2NT - 2H(!) - 2S - 3NT

[d***@pointerstop.ca]

Post by d***@pointerstop.ca
isn't going to make an artificial new-suit bid (I rather like 3C...). So, she should either bid 3N or 4H, which should end the bidding.

Oops. 3D, not 3C

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by d***@pointerstop.ca

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
I don't like opening two suited hands with a strong artificial two bid, as I end up trying to show both suits starting at the three level, so I decided to treat it as a hand suitable for reverse bidding. We were playing 5 card majors (1C could be two), strong 1NT, Benj-Acol two openings.

Ugh. Play Acol, or play 5-card majors. This system is horrible (personally, I despise Benji's waste of a 2D bid).

I don't see the missed slam has anything to do with what two level opening structure we have. It is more a judgement thing as to whether to reverse to economise on bidding space and show both suits, or treat it as a benji 2C or 2NT opener, or whether after my decision to reverse, whether or not one of us should have done more.

[Co Wiersma]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by d***@pointerstop.ca

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
I don't like opening two suited hands with a strong artificial two bid, as I end up trying to show both suits starting at the three level, so I decided to treat it as a hand suitable for reverse bidding. We were playing 5 card majors (1C could be two), strong 1NT, Benj-Acol two openings.

Ugh. Play Acol, or play 5-card majors. This system is horrible (personally, I despise Benji's waste of a 2D bid).

I don't see the missed slam has anything to do with what two level opening structure we have. It is more a judgement thing as to whether to reverse to economise on bidding space and show both suits, or treat it as a benji 2C or 2NT opener, or whether after my decision to reverse, whether or not one of us should have done more.

Still it is first and foremost not a matter judgement but a matter of system
If the 2S bid by your partner means 5-7 HCP then you have to leave it at
game
And I am quite sure your partner did not judge his/her hand to be worth 6HCP

Co Wiersma

[Player]

Post by d***@pointerstop.ca

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
I don't like opening two suited hands with a strong artificial two bid, as I end up trying to show both suits starting at the three level, so I decided to treat it as a hand suitable for reverse bidding. We were playing 5 card majors (1C could be two), strong 1NT, Benj-Acol two openings.

Ugh. Play Acol, or play 5-card majors. This system is horrible (personally, I despise Benji's waste of a 2D bid).

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Unfortunately 6NT by me is an excellent contract which we missed. I guess I could have opened 2NT, but as the auction went, who should have done more?

You've underbid twice. Not starting 2NT misled your partner (I agree with her that you've suggested no more than 19 HCP). Bidding a mere 2H suggests that you're on a minimum reverse. Then your partner underbid AND failed to support your hearts! My Acol partners all raise with three card support of a possible 4-card suit. I think her correct bids (for values of "correct" that involve not trusting each other...) are both a jump to game, since she surely can't expect you to take 2NT as forcing (over the reverse, I'd expect that to be as weak as 5 hcp) and isn't going to make an artificial new-suit bid (I rather like 3C...). So, she should either bid 3N or 4H, which should end the bidding.
2NT - 2H(!) - 2S - 3NT

Do you have any idea about what you are talking? I think not!
"You've underbid twice." Opening 2NT is a choice; actually I think the hand is too good for 2NT, but can live with it, just as I can live with 1C.
2H is NOT an underbid. A reverse shows 17plus, not 17! "Then your partner underbid AND failed to support your hearts! My Acol partners all raise with three card support of a possible 4-card suit." Then I would suggest your Acol partners have no idea how to bid if they raise on 3. 2S is the weakest bid responder can make. I prefer 3C. The real failure is the failure to open 2C.

[KWSchneider]

This hand is too strong for 2N. Our auction would go 2C-2H(8+HCP and 3 of top 5)-6N.

[k***@fundraise.com]

Post by KWSchneider
This hand is too strong for 2N. Our auction would go 2C-2H(8+HCP and 3 of top 5)-6N.

Correction: Actually I would have bid it 2C-2H-4N-5S-6N to confirm my expectations in the heart suit and verify that partner was missing the CA for the grand.

[d***@pointerstop.ca]

Post by KWSchneider
This hand is too strong for 2N. Our auction would go 2C-2H(8+HCP and 3 of top 5)-6N.

2H??? Responder has spades.

This hand is certainly not too strong for most Benji-Acol players to bid 2N. And the OP says it's a strange system with all the Benji 2-bids. The reason I dislike Benji is that 2C, 2D, and 2N can be bid on practically identical hands.

I'd argue it's not too strong for a classic American 2N, either. Though it's pushing the envelope.

It's definitely not strong enough for a Benji 2D, and I doubt these players have agreements about how to show a strong spade suit over a 2C opening.

[k***@fundraise.com]

Post by d***@pointerstop.ca

Post by KWSchneider
This hand is too strong for 2N. Our auction would go 2C-2H(8+HCP and 3 of top 5)-6N.

2H??? Responder has spades.
This hand is certainly not too strong for most Benji-Acol players to bid 2N. And the OP says it's a strange system with all the Benji 2-bids. The reason I dislike Benji is that 2C, 2D, and 2N can be bid on practically identical hands.
I'd argue it's not too strong for a classic American 2N, either. Though it's pushing the envelope.
It's definitely not strong enough for a Benji 2D, and I doubt these players have agreements about how to show a strong spade suit over a 2C opening.

This is what I get for posting through Google from an iPhone - the question disappears. Of course, I meant spades.

The auction should have gone: 2C-2S-4N-5S-6N. As far as this hand not being strong enough for 2C-2N (typically 23-24HCP), just look at your trick count. Don't get stuck on HCP.

[d***@pointerstop.ca]

Post by k***@fundraise.com
The auction should have gone: 2C-2S-4N-5S-6N. As far as this hand not being strong enough for 2C-2N (typically 23-24HCP), just look at your trick count. Don't get stuck on HCP.

I didn't say "not strong enough for 2C" but "not too strong" for a 2N opening. Especially since, for many Acol players, that's 20-22. I wouldn't fault a partner for opening either 2C or 2N with this.

(And heaven help you if you open NT out-of-range among EBU club players! You stretch it by one point, and people start screaming "Psych!"—which is a very dirty word in English clubs)

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
J9
AK62
KT
AKQJ4
I don't like opening two suited hands with a strong artificial two bid, as I end up trying to show both suits starting at the three level, so I decided to treat it as a hand suitable for reverse bidding. We were playing 5 card majors (1C could be two), strong 1NT, Benj-Acol two openings.
N E S W
P
P 1C P 1S
P 2H P 2S
P 4S AP
AKQT4
T84
982
97
Unfortunately 6NT by me is an excellent contract which we missed. I guess I could have opened 2NT, but as the auction went, who should have done more?

Where I play, Blackout is a common convention over a reverse.
The cheaper of 2NT and 4th suit is the only weak bid and everything else
is FG(+).
So 1C-1S-2H-2S shows the 5th spade and is FG(+) since it is not the
Blackout bid (which is 2NT here).
Not sure where you go from here but now opener knows responder has extras.

doug

[Steve Willner]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
N E S W
P
P 1C P 1S
P 2H P 2S
P 4S AP
Where I play, Blackout is a common convention over a reverse.
The cheaper of 2NT and 4th suit is the only weak bid and everything else
is FG(+).

I knew two other ways to play the 2S bid but had not seen this one
before. It looks like the worst possibility to me, but any agreement is
better than none. The reason I think it's worst is that the low bid of
2S should show a weak hand or a likely misfit hand, leaving room for
exploration. With strength and 5+cS, an auction reaching at least 3S is
not so bad.

The other ways I know are:
1. 2S shows 5+cS, strength ambiguous. Any other bid denies 5cS.
2. 2S is a signoff, 6+cS and weak.

Both of these also have artificial bids to show some of the hands that
won't fit in 2S. There are a variety of schemes used. For example,
Bridge World Standard uses 1 plus the Blackout scheme to show weak hands
without 5cS. KS uses 1, but fourth suit shows strength without 5cS.
That's easily adapted to use 2 with the strong bids including 5+cS.

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
So 1C-1S-2H-2S shows the 5th spade and is FG(+) since it is not the
Blackout bid (which is 2NT here).
Not sure where you go from here but now opener knows responder has extras.

As others have mentioned, the OP's problem was that responder was
playing method 1 above, but opener was playing method 2. Or something
like that. If reverse methods were not agreed, opener might have been
well advised to show a balanced hand of some strength rather than get
involved in a reverse auction.

[Fred.]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
J9
AK62
KT
AKQJ4
I don't like opening two suited hands with a strong artificial two bid, as I end up trying to show both suits starting at the three level, so I decided to treat it as a hand suitable for reverse bidding. We were playing 5 card majors (1C could be two), strong 1NT, Benj-Acol two openings.
N E S W
P
P 1C P 1S
P 2H P 2S
P 4S AP
AKQT4
T84
982
97
Unfortunately 6NT by me is an excellent contract which we missed. I guess I could have opened 2NT, but as the auction went, who should have done more?

I can't speak to Acol. but playing a 5-card major, weak no-trump
system (KS Updated) partner and I bid like this:

1C 1S
2H 2S(1)
3D(2) 3H(3)
3NT(4) 4NT(5)
6NT(6)

(1) 5 or more spades, ambiguous strength.
(2) 4th suit forcing ambiguous, GF.
(3) 3-card support. (Would have raised directly with 5S+4H)
(4) 3NT directly over 2S would have been 18-19 HCP.
(5) Natural, invitational.
(6) Counting a lot for the SJ and solid clubs. Perhaps opener
was too aware of the result. Responder had enough in reserve
to raise 5NT to 6NT.

Fred.