SAYC question

[Brian]

A friend who doesn't use USENET asked my advice on bidding a hand
which (being primarily a strong club player) I had no idea about.

Your agreements are the online curse of "SAYC, pard" and that's it.
Partner is a totally unknown pickup.

Your hand

S AK7
H 72
D A7
C AQJ975

You hear pard open 1C in first seat, next hand passes. Now what? Is
there a way to show a (very) strong club raise in SAYC? AFAIK the
system, inverted minors are NOT part of it, and neither 2C nor 3C is
forcing (I could be wrong, of course...). Best I could come up with
was a 1S response on the grounds that it was at least unambiguously
forcing, might get a useful rebid from partner, and was not going to
be a disaster if partner raised on 4-card support.

Anybody have any ideas, apart from avoiding SAYC-only pickups? :)

Brian.

[Co Wiersma]

Post by Brian
A friend who doesn't use USENET asked my advice on bidding a hand
which (being primarily a strong club player) I had no idea about.
Your agreements are the online curse of "SAYC, pard" and that's it.
Partner is a totally unknown pickup.
Your hand
S AK7
H 72
D A7
C AQJ975
You hear pard open 1C in first seat, next hand passes. Now what? Is
there a way to show a (very) strong club raise in SAYC? AFAIK the
system, inverted minors are NOT part of it, and neither 2C nor 3C is
forcing (I could be wrong, of course...). Best I could come up with
was a 1S response on the grounds that it was at least unambiguously
forcing, might get a useful rebid from partner, and was not going to
be a disaster if partner raised on 4-card support.
Anybody have any ideas, apart from avoiding SAYC-only pickups? :)
Brian.

I generally have a rule to not improvise with a mayor
So I would bid 1D and hope for the best

But of cause you could well be right and 1S is the better bid in this case

It is also possible to simply bid clubs: As 2C and 3C are not forcing
and 4C passes 3NT, the 4C bid can only be a very urgent slamtry

I guess many sayc players would straight on ask for aces (4NT?) but I do
not see the use for that with this hand

So lastly there is the
<my partner is stupid anyway, so I bid slam myself> option: 6C at imps
or 6NT at matchpoints

Co Wiersma

[Fred.]

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by Brian
A friend who doesn't use USENET asked my advice on bidding a hand
which (being primarily a strong club player) I had no idea about.
Your agreements are the online curse of "SAYC, pard" and that's it.
Partner is a totally unknown pickup.
Your hand
S AK7
H 72
D A7
C AQJ975
You hear pard open 1C in first seat, next hand passes. Now what? Is
there a way to show a (very) strong club raise in SAYC? AFAIK the
system, inverted minors are NOT part of it, and neither 2C nor 3C is
forcing (I could be wrong, of course...). Best I could come up with
was a 1S response on the grounds that it was at least unambiguously
forcing, might get a useful rebid from partner, and was not going to
be a disaster if partner raised on 4-card support.
Anybody have any ideas, apart from avoiding SAYC-only pickups? :)
Brian.

I generally have a rule to not improvise with a mayor
So I would bid 1D and hope for the best
But of cause you could well be right and 1S is the better bid in this case
It is also possible to simply bid clubs: As 2C and 3C are not forcing
and 4C passes 3NT, the 4C bid can only be a very urgent slamtry
I guess many sayc players would straight on ask for aces (4NT?) but I do
not see the use for that with this hand
So lastly there is the
<my partner is stupid anyway, so I bid slam myself> option: 6C at imps
or 6NT at matchpoints
Co Wiersma

Ely Culbertson's voice from the grave says that since partner
can lay down 6 holding exactly the right minimum, e.g. Qxx-Axxx-Kxx-Kxx,
I should invite small slam. Unfortunately, neither Ely nor anybody else is
telling me how to make an invitation which will be informative to partner.

Since small slam is cold facing many minimums with 2 QT, and comes
down to a finesse with many others, I'm going press to slam at
match points, not because I think partner is stupid, but because I
think the risk of blasting slam and getting too high is smaller than
the risk of partner bidding too little facing an incomprehensible
invitation.

I agree with your 1D call, not just because it is a minor, but
partner is unlikely to hold four diamonds having opened 1C in
SAYC, while opener is quite likely to hold 4 spades for a spade
raise. I make it because I want to coax a NT bid out of partner,
who may hold a lead advantage in hearts, so I can raise to 6.
If partner obstinately bids a major, I can try again with the
4th suit, and, again, with a minimum club bid.

Fred.

[Fred.]

Post by Fred.

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by Brian
A friend who doesn't use USENET asked my advice on bidding a hand
which (being primarily a strong club player) I had no idea about.
Your agreements are the online curse of "SAYC, pard" and that's it.
Partner is a totally unknown pickup.
Your hand
S AK7
H 72
D A7
C AQJ975
You hear pard open 1C in first seat, next hand passes. Now what? Is
there a way to show a (very) strong club raise in SAYC? AFAIK the
system, inverted minors are NOT part of it, and neither 2C nor 3C is
forcing (I could be wrong, of course...). Best I could come up with
was a 1S response on the grounds that it was at least unambiguously
forcing, might get a useful rebid from partner, and was not going to
be a disaster if partner raised on 4-card support.
Anybody have any ideas, apart from avoiding SAYC-only pickups? :)
Brian.

I generally have a rule to not improvise with a mayor
So I would bid 1D and hope for the best
But of cause you could well be right and 1S is the better bid in this case
It is also possible to simply bid clubs: As 2C and 3C are not forcing
and 4C passes 3NT, the 4C bid can only be a very urgent slamtry
I guess many sayc players would straight on ask for aces (4NT?) but I do
not see the use for that with this hand
So lastly there is the
<my partner is stupid anyway, so I bid slam myself> option: 6C at imps
or 6NT at matchpoints
Co Wiersma

Ely Culbertson's voice from the grave says that since partner
can lay down 6 holding exactly the right minimum, e.g. Qxx-Axxx-Kxx-Kxx,
I should invite small slam. Unfortunately, neither Ely nor anybody else is
telling me how to make an invitation which will be informative to partner.
Since small slam is cold facing many minimums with 2 QT, and comes
down to a finesse with many others, I'm going press to slam at
match points, not because I think partner is stupid, but because I
think the risk of blasting slam and getting too high is smaller than
the risk of partner bidding too little facing an incomprehensible
invitation.
I agree with your 1D call, not just because it is a minor, but
partner is unlikely to hold four diamonds having opened 1C in
SAYC, while opener is quite likely to hold 4 spades for a spade
raise. I make it because I want to coax a NT bid out of partner,
who may hold a lead advantage in hearts, so I can raise to 6.
If partner obstinately bids a major, I can try again with the
4th suit, and, again, with a minimum club bid.
Fred.

PS. I falsely assumed that since the 2nd round jump raise by
responder was invitational that raising via 4th suit would be
game forcing. A more careful reading of the SAYC pamphlet
indicates that the the non-jump bid in the 4th suit may be
conventional, but is only forcing for one round. The jump in
the 4th suit is also ambiguous, but forcing to game. Thus, the
only strong club raise would be the likes of:

1C 1D
1H 2S!
? 4C

or

1C 1D
1S 3H!
? 5C

Ugh!

Fred.

[ais523]

Post by Brian
A friend who doesn't use USENET asked my advice on bidding a hand
which (being primarily a strong club player) I had no idea about.
Your agreements are the online curse of "SAYC, pard" and that's it.
Partner is a totally unknown pickup.
Your hand
S AK7
H 72
D A7
C AQJ975
You hear pard open 1C in first seat, next hand passes. Now what? Is
there a way to show a (very) strong club raise in SAYC? AFAIK the
system, inverted minors are NOT part of it, and neither 2C nor 3C is
forcing (I could be wrong, of course...). Best I could come up with
was a 1S response on the grounds that it was at least unambiguously
forcing, might get a useful rebid from partner, and was not going to
be a disaster if partner raised on 4-card support.
Anybody have any ideas, apart from avoiding SAYC-only pickups? :)

From the SAYC documentation I have: "there is no forcing minor-suit
raise".

It's wrong, though: there is a forcing bid that agrees clubs, and it's
4NT. That's not as ridiculous as it might sound; we know we have a
9-card club fit (one positive of playing better-minor), and we have an
18-point hand opposite our partner's 13-point hand. A 9-card fit and 31
points in the partnership is nearly always enough to make slam, and the
only potential issue is missing two Aces (or an Ace + the King of
Clubs). Luckily, the SAYC responses to Blackwood respond 5C with 0, so
we'll be able to pass out 5C if we are indeed missing the Aces, and if
not, 6C is probably where we want to be.

The main disadvantage of this method is that there's no real way to
intelligently work out if a grand slam is available (no, the 5NT
followup is not intelligent when you're in clubs and missing three
Kings), but given how bare-bones SAYC is, no other method is likely to
figure that out either. If partner is experienced, they might realise
that a direct jump to Blackwood is unlikely unless the Blackwood
bidder has no other option, so the 4NT bid might actually be the best
way to show a single-suited raise as it is.

[[e-mail]]

Post by ais523

Post by Brian
A friend who doesn't use USENET asked my advice on bidding a hand
which (being primarily a strong club player) I had no idea about.
Your agreements are the online curse of "SAYC, pard" and that's it.
Partner is a totally unknown pickup.
Your hand
S AK7
H 72
D A7
C AQJ975
You hear pard open 1C in first seat, next hand passes. Now what? Is
there a way to show a (very) strong club raise in SAYC? AFAIK the
system, inverted minors are NOT part of it, and neither 2C nor 3C is
forcing (I could be wrong, of course...). Best I could come up with
was a 1S response on the grounds that it was at least unambiguously
forcing, might get a useful rebid from partner, and was not going to
be a disaster if partner raised on 4-card support.
Anybody have any ideas, apart from avoiding SAYC-only pickups? :)

From the SAYC documentation I have: "there is no forcing minor-suit
raise".
It's wrong, though: there is a forcing bid that agrees clubs, and it's
4NT. That's not as ridiculous as it might sound; we know we have a
9-card club fit (one positive of playing better-minor), and we have an
18-point hand opposite our partner's 13-point hand. A 9-card fit and 31
points in the partnership is nearly always enough to make slam, and the
only potential issue is missing two Aces (or an Ace + the King of
Clubs). Luckily, the SAYC responses to Blackwood respond 5C with 0, so
we'll be able to pass out 5C if we are indeed missing the Aces, and if
not, 6C is probably where we want to be.
The main disadvantage of this method is that there's no real way to
intelligently work out if a grand slam is available (no, the 5NT
followup is not intelligent when you're in clubs and missing three
Kings), but given how bare-bones SAYC is, no other method is likely to
figure that out either. If partner is experienced, they might realise
that a direct jump to Blackwood is unlikely unless the Blackwood
bidder has no other option, so the 4NT bid might actually be the best
way to show a single-suited raise as it is.
--
ais523

1C - 4NT does not agree clubs. Proof: 1C - 4NT ; 5H - 6D is certainly not forcing.

Carl

[ais523]

***@verizon.net wrote:
[context: SAYC]

1C - 4NT does not agree clubs. Proof: 1C - 4NT ; 5H - 6D is
certainly not forcing.

I agree that that sequence would be interpreted as non-forcing if it
actually happened (without prior partnership agreement).

It's a bad sequence, though; responder should probably start with 1D in
order to clarify the situation and gain more information. Leaping to
Blackwood as your first bid is only really suitable when your agreements
are missing any alternative to exploring for slam, and if you want to
force diamonds, you have an alternative.

(For what it's worth, I would typically prefer to agree this sequence,
showing a new suit above small slam level after Blackwood, as forcing,
being a choice of grand slams with 7D as one possibility. I agree that
that isn't a standard meaning, though.)

[[e-mail]]

Post by ais523
[context: SAYC]

1C - 4NT does not agree clubs. Proof: 1C - 4NT ; 5H - 6D is
certainly not forcing.

I agree that that sequence would be interpreted as non-forcing if it
actually happened (without prior partnership agreement).
It's a bad sequence, though; responder should probably start with 1D in
order to clarify the situation and gain more information. Leaping to
Blackwood as your first bid is only really suitable when your agreements
are missing any alternative to exploring for slam, and if you want to
force diamonds, you have an alternative.
(For what it's worth, I would typically prefer to agree this sequence,
showing a new suit above small slam level after Blackwood, as forcing,
being a choice of grand slams with 7D as one possibility. I agree that
that isn't a standard meaning, though.)
--
ais523

You would never bid 4NT over 1C with D 1-suiter. Nor would I. Could either of us trust our partner not to?

Carl

[Steve Willner]

Post by Brian
Your agreements are the online curse of "SAYC, pard" and that's it.
Partner is a totally unknown pickup.
S AK7
H 72
D A7
C AQJ975
You hear pard open 1C in first seat, next hand passes. Now what?

In the old days, I'd have bid 2S, which promised strong spades but not
necessarily length. With a pickup partner, that's far too dangerous
now. Choices that occur to me are 1S, 1D, and 6C. I suppose
lead-inhibiting 1H is also possible if you are prepared to bid 6C next,
but that may backfire if your LHO can Lightner-double 6C. 4NT is also
possible
, but I don't see what it gains. Even if off both keycards, 6C should
make if the club finesse works, and just possibly partner might correct
6C to 6NT. I wouldn't bid 4C for fear a pickup partner would pass.