Discussion:
alertable double?
(too old to reply)
Eddie Grove
2019-07-07 20:53:11 UTC
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Playing with robots on bridgez, a french site,
I had the competitive auction

1S-2H-2S-3H
3S-X!

The double was alerted, but the software did not explain it.

I believe 3S was purely competitive, if that matters.

What is a reasonable alternative meaning for X other than penalty?

I could not think of one, and seeing the robot's hand didn't help.

Eddie
ais523
2019-07-07 21:50:49 UTC
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Post by Eddie Grove
Playing with robots on bridgez, a french site,
I had the competitive auction
1S-2H-2S-3H
3S-X!
The double was alerted, but the software did not explain it.
I believe 3S was purely competitive, if that matters.
What is a reasonable alternative meaning for X other than penalty?
I could not think of one, and seeing the robot's hand didn't help.
I can think of two reasonable alternative meanings.

One is "values", showing a hand that's much better than the minimum for
a 2H overcall. This allows partner to consider 4H, or just play 3SX,
depending on which of the contracts they think will make.

The other is an attempt to play 3NT. That seems a bit of a stretch after
hearts have been raised, but on this bidding advancer might not have
much in hearts, and if both overcaller and advancer have a balanced
hand, maybe 3NT is the best spot if advancer has a stopper. (Overcaller
can't have one, or else they'd have bid 1NT themself with that sort of
hand.) That sort of double would probably be pulled to 4H if advancer
didn't have a stop either. (Note that robot bidding often comes up with
"something of a stretch" bids because the robots are following hard
rules for what bids mean rather than bridge logic.)
--
ais523
Eddie Grove
2019-07-07 23:06:57 UTC
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Post by ais523
Post by Eddie Grove
Playing with robots on bridgez, a french site,
I had the competitive auction
1S-2H-2S-3H
3S-X!
The double was alerted, but the software did not explain it.
I believe 3S was purely competitive, if that matters.
What is a reasonable alternative meaning for X other than penalty?
I could not think of one, and seeing the robot's hand didn't help.
I can think of two reasonable alternative meanings.
Could you give an example hand for any suggestion? Is there any specific
holding in spades, for example, that is required or forbidden?
A generic "values" seems just to force partner to guess.

Or, if you don't want to give an example for the double, how about
examples for which hands the 3H bidder might hold that make passing the
double appropriate?
Post by ais523
One is "values", showing a hand that's much better than the minimum for
a 2H overcall. This allows partner to consider 4H, or just play 3SX,
depending on which of the contracts they think will make.
The other is an attempt to play 3NT. That seems a bit of a stretch after
hearts have been raised, but on this bidding advancer might not have
much in hearts, and if both overcaller and advancer have a balanced
hand, maybe 3NT is the best spot if advancer has a stopper. (Overcaller
can't have one, or else they'd have bid 1NT themself with that sort of
hand.) That sort of double would probably be pulled to 4H if advancer
didn't have a stop either.
Would this promise solid hearts? Deny solid hearts and require a fitting honor?
Post by ais523
(Note that robot bidding often comes up with
"something of a stretch" bids because the robots are following hard
rules for what bids mean rather than bridge logic.)
I'm not particularly interested in what to do with the robot.
I was just wondering if any non-penalty meaning made any sense at all.

Eddie
ais523
2019-07-07 23:33:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eddie Grove
Post by ais523
Post by Eddie Grove
Playing with robots on bridgez, a french site,
I had the competitive auction
1S-2H-2S-3H
3S-X!
The double was alerted, but the software did not explain it.
I believe 3S was purely competitive, if that matters.
What is a reasonable alternative meaning for X other than penalty?
I could not think of one, and seeing the robot's hand didn't help.
I can think of two reasonable alternative meanings.
Could you give an example hand for any suggestion? Is there any specific
holding in spades, for example, that is required or forbidden?
A generic "values" seems just to force partner to guess.
Overcaller almost certainly doesn't have a good stop in spades. Advancer
has taken a fairly weak action, so in order for overcaller to even want
to ask their opinion, overcaller's hand has to be near maximum for an
overcall. I'm assuming that a jump overcall would have been weak, so I'm
assuming that the overcaller has something that looks a bit like a 1NT
overcall but doesn't have enough in spades (and might be a bit weaker in
point count; definitely not enough for double-then-pull-to-hearts).

For a "values" double, the shape wouldn't be too important (a shortage
in spades might be helpful); all that matters is that the hand is much
stronger than would necessarily be expected for a simple 2H overcall.
Maybe something like x AQJxx xxx AKxx; that looks like a reasonable 2H
overcall to me (assuming that 3H doesn't show that hand; a takeout X
seems like a bad idea with it), but it's clearly much stronger than a 2H
overcall could be. (But yes, "values" doubles typically do force the
partner to guess; I've experimented with them and dislike them for that
reason. They're a good way to get a mix of tops and bottoms at
matchpoints, but feel a bit too random for me. One advantage is that
they're more common in this situation than a genuine penalty double
would be.)

For a "I want to play game, suggesting 3NT" double, I'd expect something
even stronger in terms of high cards but with a less useful shape,
perhaps xx AKJxx Axx Kxx. That hand wants to try 4H opposite most
partners who can scrape up a heart raise (at least at IMPs), but would
probably prefer 3NT if partner is balanced with a spade stop (it's
easy to imagine that no ruffs are available and every suit is properly
stopped, in which case hearts will produce no more tricks than
notrumps do). The hearts are good enough that 2H seems like a better
overcall than a takeout double, though (and depending on system, the
hand may not be strong enough to make a takeout double and then pull
to hearts); partner will probably bid a minor over the takeout double,
and is that where you really want to be?
--
ais523
Barry Margolin
2019-07-08 16:20:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by ais523
Post by Eddie Grove
Playing with robots on bridgez, a french site,
I had the competitive auction
1S-2H-2S-3H
3S-X!
The double was alerted, but the software did not explain it.
I believe 3S was purely competitive, if that matters.
What is a reasonable alternative meaning for X other than penalty?
I could not think of one, and seeing the robot's hand didn't help.
I can think of two reasonable alternative meanings.
One is "values", showing a hand that's much better than the minimum for
a 2H overcall. This allows partner to consider 4H, or just play 3SX,
depending on which of the contracts they think will make.
If the hand is "much better", wouldn't they have doubled on the first
round? So I guess it would have to be a hand that's just short of strong
enough to double then bid.
--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA
ais523
2019-07-08 16:51:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Margolin
Post by ais523
One is "values", showing a hand that's much better than the minimum for
a 2H overcall. This allows partner to consider 4H, or just play 3SX,
depending on which of the contracts they think will make.
If the hand is "much better", wouldn't they have doubled on the first
round? So I guess it would have to be a hand that's just short of strong
enough to double then bid.
Well, depending on system, a minimum for a 2H overcall is something like
8-10 points (depending on how good the suit is). X followed by 2H (or 3H
if playing equal level conversion) tends to be played as something like
17-19 points. There's a huge gap in between those, so being able to show
14-15 points with 2H followed by X is the sort of thing that people (and
especially bots, who live by point count) like to be able to do.
--
ais523
Lorne
2019-07-11 00:20:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eddie Grove
Playing with robots on bridgez, a french site,
I had the competitive auction
1S-2H-2S-3H
3S-X!
The double was alerted, but the software did not explain it.
I believe 3S was purely competitive, if that matters.
What is a reasonable alternative meaning for X other than penalty?
I could not think of one, and seeing the robot's hand didn't help.
Eddie
I would expect double to show extra values (15+ pts, max 5 hearts) and
decent defense but not sure whether to defend or play 4H. I would
expect partner to remove with 4 trumps and a bit of shape but pass a lot
of the time.
Jean Pierre Fontenille
2019-07-14 06:31:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eddie Grove
Playing with robots on bridgez, a french site,
I had the competitive auction
1S-2H-2S-3H
3S-X!
The double was alerted, but the software did not explain it.
I believe 3S was purely competitive, if that matters.
What is a reasonable alternative meaning for X other than penalty?
I could not think of one, and seeing the robot's hand didn't help.
Eddie
Jean Pierre Fontenille
2019-07-14 06:32:52 UTC
Permalink
0544 with 12 points
4 hearts or pass
?
Jean Pierre Fontenille
2019-07-14 06:38:41 UTC
Permalink
Whas it "par paire" ?

in this case a possibility is that 3hearts would score 140 and 3 spade-1 only 100 then u OUGHT double to get 300
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