Precision with transfer responses for positive hands

[David Babcock]

Can someone point me to anything from theoretical discussions to
system notes on the subject of Precision with transfer responses to 1C
for positive hands? The best-known Precision titles don't seem to
discuss this much.

David

[alvin]

Post by David Babcock
Can someone point me to anything from theoretical discussions to
system notes on the subject of Precision with transfer responses to 1C
for positive hands?  The best-known Precision titles don't seem to
discuss this much.
David

David:

In a noncompetitive auction, there is probably no good way to do what
you suggest. If you want to start your transfers with a transfer to
hearts, you willl need to use 1D (which is the negative response to a
one club opening). If you want to start transferring with a transfer
to clubs, you will need to use a 1NT response as a transfer, which is
also otherwise committed (bal., typically 8-11).

It is feasible to transfer after the opponents interfere with a double
of the 1C opening. Responder can assign pass and redouble to different
strength negative responses (e. g., pass shows 0-3 and redouble shows
4-7 or the opposite), and then, for example, use 1D as a trasnfer to
hearts, 1H as a transfer to spades, 1S as a transfer to clubs, 2C as a
transfer to diamonds, and keep 1NT for its usual meaning. Other minor
suit transfer approaches are possibnle if you give up the usual
meaning of a 1NT response; you might move that to a 1S bid instead.

You can also transfer over a 1D overcall - either the pass or
redouible can show 0-7 HCP, and use the other to show a heart suit.

Alvin P. Bluthman
***@aol.com .

[Rob Morris]

Post by alvin

Post by David Babcock
Can someone point me to anything from theoretical discussions to
system notes on the subject of Precision with transfer responses to 1C
for positive hands? The best-known Precision titles don't seem to
discuss this much.

In a noncompetitive auction, there is probably no good way to do what
you suggest.

Doesn't stop plenty of people from trying. In theory Precision already
uses 1H 1S 1NT 2C 2D for the four suits plus balanced, so you can
rearrange these as you choose and give the same information with a
transfer bid.

The loss is usually in the heart suit, going from the most efficient
positive to the least efficient, but there are other possibilities for
giving preference to the majors e.g. the Meckwell style where 1H =
spades or a balanced range and 1S = hearts.

The only 'modern' Precision text I have is 'Precision Today' by
Berkowitz and Manley, which I suspect the OP has already seen, as indeed
it does not discuss transfer positives much. But just in case, I'll note:

They recommend a simple transfer apparatus with 1H=>S, 1S=>C, 2C=>D,
2D=>H, with 1D and 1NT retaining their usual meaning. They suggest that
opener bidding a new suit generally denies support, 1NT is 16-19 and
jumps in NT are 20-21.

Completing the transfer shows support and makes the auction completely
artificial. Responder now shows controls in a Beta-asking-bid style, and
then opener bidding the agreed suit is a traditional Gamma trump ask and
any new suit is control-asking in that suit. They also suggest a
compressed Beta scheme for if opponents compete and opener 'completes'
the transfer in a contested auction.

That appears to be all there is to it.

[barryrigal]

The section on symmetric relays in Precision in the 90's suggests
switching majors and minors.
It's hard to get hold of the book but you can drop me an email if you
like

Barry

[Larry]

For one year (2005) I played a Transfer-like Precision System that
used exclusion bids:
1C - 1H = 5-cd black suit
1C - 1S = 5-cd red suit
1C - 1NT = 5-5 and two suits
1C - 2C = 6+ diamonds & unbalanced
1C - 2D = 8-10 NT
1C - 2H = any 4441
1C - 2S = 5m440
I won 400 ACBL Master Points playing that system for 1 year.

There are several on-line documents:
Keylime Precision which can be found on the Bridgeguys web page:

http://www.bridgeguys.com/pdf/KeyLimePrecision/Chapter2.pdf

Keylime and I teamed up in 2006 and created Ultra Club which uses
canape transfers:

http://www.bridgewithdan.com/systems/Ultra.pdf

The past 2 years we have improved Ultra and now have C3: Copious
Canape Club.

This version is NOT on the web yet.

The early versions used the acceptance of the transfer bid as a Beta
Ask for Aces & Kings (per Precision Today).

Now, we use relays so responder can describe his distribution and
later use Beta. Opener can break the relays with unusual hands
(Strong One suited and slam interest usually).

Larry (PrecisionL on BBO),
Dwayne (Keylime on BBO)

More details for serious students via e-mail.

[Larry]

Post by Larry
1C - 1H = 5-cd black suit
1C - 1S = 5-cd red suit

CORRECTION to exclusion bids:

1C - 1S = 5+ hearts & Positive (8+ hcp)

Larry

[barryrigal]

for Rob Morris
(emails were bouncing to you)

let me know your address and I can sell you a copy.

Current sale price is 20$.
If that works for you I'll send it p&p free
Barry
I'll give you my mail address when you send me yours.

[l***@gmail.com]

Post by barryrigal
for Rob Morris
(emails were bouncing to you)
let me know your address and I can sell you a copy.

Current sale price is 20$.
If that works for you I'll send it p&p free
Barry
I'll give you my mail address when you send me yours.

[l***@gmail.com]

Post by Larry

Post by Larry
1C - 1H = 5-cd black suit
1C - 1S = 5-cd red suit

1C - 1S = 5+ hearts & Positive (8+ hcp)
Larry

[George Lee]

Post by Larry

Post by Larry
1C - 1H = 5-cd black suit
1C - 1S = 5-cd red suit

1C - 1S = 5+ hearts & Positive (8+ hcp)
Larry

Post by Larry
1C - 1H = 5-cd black suit
1C - 1S = 5-cd red suit

1C - 1S = 5+ hearts & Positive (8+ hcp)
Larry

[Nick France]

Post by David Babcock
Can someone point me to anything from theoretical discussions to
system notes on the subject of Precision with transfer responses to 1C
for positive hands?  The best-known Precision titles don't seem to
discuss this much.
David

I'd suggest typing in symmetric relay precision on google and you'll
get some hits on system at least. I use to play it. Picked it up in
Australia by way of New Zealand by way of the USA (think Jim Becker
was one of the authors but not sure). There was also at least one
system notes up under that heading for using transfer after they
compete against you.

Hope it is something along the lines you are looking for.

Nick France

[Michael Angelo Ravera]

Post by David Babcock
Can someone point me to anything from theoretical discussions to
system notes on the subject of Precision with transfer responses to 1C
for positive hands?  The best-known Precision titles don't seem to
discuss this much.

In both the precision and magic systems that I play, I use transfer
responses starting at 2D. While in the precision system they tend to
be pure and nevatives, There is no reason that you couldn't use them
for some positive hands as well.

If you are willing to use 2C as your "balanced or negative" (bypassing
the likely 1NT field contract), you could transfer 1D->H, 1H->S, 1S->
C, 1NT->D.

Instead, you could make your 1D polyvalent and make (with ops silent)
1C-1D;1H-1S mean "I was kidding about hearts. I just had a negative"

Also, you could transfer and then relay (Herbert negative) to
distinguish negatives from positives. If you do this, you may want to
adopt Romanesque responses (1C-2C show minors, 1C-2D shows red suits,
1C-2H shows majors, 1C-2S shows black suits) to show positve hands
with 5-4+ in adjacent suits to avoid transfering to the 4-card suit
and rebidding the 5-card suit. You'd naturally want to use 1C-1NT[TRF
D];2D-2H to show 5 or more diamonds and 4 or more hearts, but that
sequence actually shows a diamond negative, so 1C-2D takes care of
that hand. There's no trouble using 1C-1D[TFR H]; 1H-2D to show a hand
with 5 or more hearts and 4 or more diamonds.

[KWSchneider]

Post by David Babcock
Can someone point me to anything from theoretical discussions to
system notes on the subject of Precision with transfer responses to 1C
for positive hands?  The best-known Precision titles don't seem to
discuss this much.
David

There are 3 generally accepted methods of playing transfer positives
over a strong club.

1) 5-way - 1H->1S, 1S->1N, 1N->2C, 2C->2D, 2D->2H
2) 4-way - 1H->1S, 1N, 1S->2C, 2C->2D, 2D->2H
3) Meckwellian - 1H->1S, 1S=1H [effectively 1S->2H], 1N->2C, 2C->2D,
2D=1N [effectively 2D->2N, balanced]

The logic is that more often than not, opener has a strong notrump
hand and all of the benefits of transfers in that environment would
accrue here. Acceptance of the transfer always shows 3+length, it may
also be an trump or control asking bid - but in all cases it sets
trump [and initiates asking sequences if you play them].

I prefer the Meckwellian version, since it keeps a 1N rebid by opener
available over either major response. This allows opener to bid
notrump first - and we use this as a control ask as well. Using 2D as
a balanced response [again there are ranges and versions of this as
well] works well since opener can bid a 5+major over it, else bids 2N
and then GF Stayman is on.

Meckwell divide their flat hand responses into multiple brackets by
using a 1H response as a 2-way bid showing a good flat response
[11-13pts] or spades. This ensures that the 2D response is limited to
8-10pts but convolutes the 1C 1H auction significantly.

Cheers,
Kurt

[Chris]

Post by KWSchneider

Post by David Babcock
Can someone point me to anything from theoretical discussions to
system notes on the subject of Precision with transfer responses to 1C
for positive hands?  The best-known Precision titles don't seem to
discuss this much.
David

There are 3 generally accepted methods of playing transfer positives
over a strong club.
1) 5-way - 1H->1S, 1S->1N, 1N->2C, 2C->2D, 2D->2H

Another generally accepted method of 5-way transfers (MORE common in
my experience) reverses the meanings of 1NT and 2D in the above, so
that 1NT shows hearts and 2D shows clubs. It isn't a good idea to
have the responder stealing the NT when he has a long minor.

Some other methods use 1H to show either of two positives. (One
scheme I have seen, though not the only, is 1H = a positive in a black
suit, 1S = balanced, 1NT = hearts, 2C = diamonds). This avoids
violating the useful space principle--you really should be putting
more hands through 1H than 2D, for example--at the risk of 4th hand
preempting over the 1H response.

Note that the 1S bid showing a balanced hand will for most players
include 4441 hands and may include semibalanced hands with a long
minor if they are NT-oriented. They may also include 5332 hands with
a 5-card major, depending on style.

Post by KWSchneider
2) 4-way - 1H->1S, 1N, 1S->2C, 2C->2D, 2D->2H
3) Meckwellian - 1H->1S, 1S=1H [effectively 1S->2H], 1N->2C, 2C->2D,
2D=1N [effectively 2D->2N, balanced]
The logic is that more often than not, opener has a strong notrump
hand and all of the benefits of transfers in that environment would
accrue here. Acceptance of the transfer always shows 3+length, it may
also be an trump or control asking bid - but in all cases it sets
trump [and initiates asking sequences if you play them].

It's also common for opener's cheapest rebid to simply ask for further
description.

Post by KWSchneider
I prefer the Meckwellian version, since it keeps a 1N rebid by opener
available over either major response. This allows opener to bid
notrump first - and we use this as a control ask as well. Using 2D as
a balanced response [again there are ranges and versions of this as
well] works well since opener can bid a 5+major over it, else bids 2N
and then GF Stayman is on.

I actually dislike this approach, since I think the responder rather
than the opener should be doing the describing when opener is
balanced. I try hard to banish Stayman from game-forcing 1C auctions.

I also think it's more important for declarer to be able to declare NT
when responder does NOT have a major. (When he does have a major,
it's less likely we belong in NT as the final contract.)

Post by KWSchneider
Meckwell divide their flat hand responses into multiple brackets by
using a 1H response as a 2-way bid showing a good flat response
[11-13pts] or spades. This ensures that the 2D response is limited to
8-10pts but convolutes the 1C 1H auction significantly.

No good method fails to convolute the 1C-1H auction.

Christopher Monsour

[t***@att.net]

Perhaps one could fold the transfers into the 1D response; 1C-1D;
1x-2y as a transfer. Or use the 2-level for transfers and fold the non-
transfer (normal) two-level responses into the 1D (the Unusual
Positive.)

[h***@yahoo.com]

Post by David Babcock
Can someone point me to anything from theoretical discussions to
system notes on the subject of Precision with transfer responses to 1C
for positive hands?  The best-known Precision titles don't seem to
discuss this much.
David

There is some discussion of transfer responses to a strong club in the
book on transfers by Brian Senior (name escapes me now).

There are two possible scenarios, assuming that you keep a 1d =
negative:

1h --> spades
1s --> balanced (or 3-suited, if you want to fold those hands in)
1nt --> clubs
2c --> diamonds
2d --> hearts

I don't like this scenario because of the possibility of wrong siding
NT hands when responder has clubs. So I prefer this:

1h --> spades
1s --> clubs
1nt --> balanced
2c --> diamonds
2d --> hearts, two suited
2h --> hearts, one suited

(note that using 2d and 2h as different heart positves can also be
incorporated into scenario 1).

In either scenario, I use the simple acceptance of the transfer as a
values-neutral relay, new suits as natural and forcing, and the
cheapest nt as a slam interested raise.

My real preference is this scenario, but it is much more complicated

1h --> spades or clubs. 1s by opener asks, and 1nt by responder =
spades, 2c+ = clubs
1s --> balanced or three suite
1nt --> hearts. This is to allow 1c Mpositive 2c as a shape-
requesting relay no matter which major suit responder has.
2c --> diamonds
2d --> diamond one suiter or diamond and diamonds and clubs

Using two different positives for diamonds allows opener to get
similar shape information using basically the same structure as over
1c Mpositive. It goes without saying that using 1h as a black suit
positive requires substantial discussion as to what to do when the
opponents intervene, and that this is not the structure to use in a
casual strong club partnership.

Henrysun909

[KWSchneider]

Post by h***@yahoo.com

Post by David Babcock
Can someone point me to anything from theoretical discussions to
system notes on the subject of Precision with transfer responses to 1C
for positive hands?  The best-known Precision titles don't seem to
discuss this much.
David

There is some discussion of transfer responses to a strong club in the
book on transfers by Brian Senior (name escapes me now).
There are two possible scenarios, assuming that you keep a 1d =
1h --> spades
1s --> balanced (or 3-suited, if you want to fold those hands in)
1nt --> clubs
2c --> diamonds
2d --> hearts
I don't like this scenario because of the possibility of wrong siding
1h --> spades
1s --> clubs
1nt --> balanced
2c --> diamonds
2d --> hearts, two suited
2h --> hearts, one suited
(note that using 2d and 2h as different heart positves can also be
incorporated into scenario 1).
In either scenario, I use the simple acceptance of the transfer as a
values-neutral relay, new suits as natural and forcing, and the
cheapest nt as a slam interested raise.
My real preference is this scenario, but it is much more complicated
1h --> spades or clubs.  1s by opener asks, and 1nt by responder =
spades, 2c+ = clubs
1s --> balanced or three suite
1nt --> hearts.  This is to allow 1c Mpositive 2c as a shape-
requesting relay no matter which major suit responder has.
2c --> diamonds
2d --> diamond one suiter or diamond and diamonds and clubs
Using two different positives for diamonds allows opener to get
similar shape information using basically the same structure as over
1c Mpositive.  It goes without saying that using 1h as a black suit
positive requires substantial discussion as to what to do when the
opponents intervene, and that this is not the structure to use in a
casual strong club partnership.
Henrysun909

OK Henry - you've opened up Pandora's box here. If you really want to
discuss "best" methods, try my favorite method on for size:

1D = xfer positive [canape] to hearts or 0-5 negative - after which
opener "accepts" with 3+h or a balanced hand, then responder bids 1S
to show crap, otherwise 1-under xfer to a second suit shows the heart
positive. After 1S, next bid by opener is to play. Without 3+h or
balanced, opener rebids 1S with spades, 1N with both minors, 2m with
minor. Many other sequences after 1D...including asking bids.
1H = xfer positve [canape] to spades. Responses mirror the 1D auction
[instead in spades] except the 1S rebid is unavailable to responder
[and not needed].
1S = invitational [6-8] balanced [could have 5M]. 1N by opener shows
16-b17, 2N shows G17-18 - Stayman and xfers are on.
1N = SI balanced, 15+
2C = invitational [6-8] Staymanic or GF balanced [9-14]
2R = weak [long major] or better [major 2-suiter]
2S = weak [long clubs] or better [club 2-suiter]
2N = weak both minors or better [big minor hand]
3C = weak [long clubs] or better [diamond 2-suiter]

Kurt

[n***@flash.net]

Update 2/15/16:

I now use 1C - 1NT as 5-4 or better in the majors with 2C asking for 1-under the longer major. It is not too hard to fold in all 5-5 positive hands into 1NT:

2C asks:

2D = 5+H and 4S
2H = 5+S and 4H
2S = 5H and 5C/5D
2NT = 5S and 5C/5D
3C = 5C + 5D
3D = 5H + 5S

Another idea we used for several years (similar to Sabine Auken's Strong Club, I Love This Game, 2006): Use canape transfers into the majors: 1C - 1H = 4+S; 1C - 1S = 4+H. All other responses deny 4 of a major. And 1C - 2C = one or both minors.

[KWSchneider]

Post by n***@flash.net
2D = 5+H and 4S
2H = 5+S and 4H
2S = 5H and 5C/5D
2NT = 5S and 5C/5D
3C = 5C + 5D
3D = 5H + 5S

Difficult to review when we don't have the rest of your positives. You've lost 1N so how do you handle clubs or a balanced hand (both typical uses for 1N). Is that shown below?

Post by n***@flash.net
Another idea we used for several years (similar to Sabine Auken's Strong Club, I Love This Game, 2006): Use canape transfers into the majors: 1C - 1H = 4+S; 1C - 1S = 4+H. All other responses deny 4 of a major. And 1C - 2C = one or both minors.

I've always liked Auken's system and play a version of it with one of my partners. The problem of differentiating 5M4m hands from 4M5m canape hands is always a concern. How do you handle this?

We handle that by playing ALL positive responses are canape style. So to show 4c5h, we use our club positive (1N) and then show hearts. But then we also play that 1D is either VERY weak or a heart positive (4h/5other or 6h+) to broaden our GF response structure. 1C-1D-1H-1S = very weak. 1C-1D-1H-other = heart positive.

Kurt

[KWSchneider]

Post by n***@flash.net
2D = 5+H and 4S
2H = 5+S and 4H
2S = 5H and 5C/5D
2NT = 5S and 5C/5D
3C = 5C + 5D
3D = 5H + 5S

Also - there is a more efficient way of handling this:
2D = 5h, not 5s, then 2H asks, then 2S = 4s/5h, 2N = 5h/5c, 3C = 5h/5d
2H = 5s, not 4+h, then 2S asks, then 2N = 5s/5c, 3C = 5s/5d
2S = 5s4h
2N = minors
3C = 55 majors

All auctions are complete at 3C, there is symmetry, and you differentiate the major minor 2suiters. If you need to add 64 major suiters, then you could add 3D options...

Kurt

[smn]

Post by David Babcock
Can someone point me to anything from theoretical discussions to
system notes on the subject of Precision with transfer responses to 1C
for positive hands? The best-known Precision titles don't seem to
discuss this much.
David

Berkowitz and Manley - Precision Today has a full discussion .smn

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by smn

Post by David Babcock
Can someone point me to anything from theoretical discussions to
system notes on the subject of Precision with transfer responses to 1C
for positive hands? The best-known Precision titles don't seem to
discuss this much.
David

Berkowitz and Manley - Precision Today has a full discussion .smn

Just over 5 years between the ask and the answer!
Is this some kind of record?

[KWSchneider]

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by smn

Post by David Babcock
Can someone point me to anything from theoretical discussions to
system notes on the subject of Precision with transfer responses to 1C
for positive hands? The best-known Precision titles don't seem to
discuss this much.
David

Berkowitz and Manley - Precision Today has a full discussion .smn

Just over 5 years between the ask and the answer!
Is this some kind of record?
--
doug

My thoughts exactly - I hope David is still interested in the answer.

Kurt

[KWSchneider]

Post by smn

Post by David Babcock
Can someone point me to anything from theoretical discussions to
system notes on the subject of Precision with transfer responses to 1C
for positive hands? The best-known Precision titles don't seem to
discuss this much.
David

Berkowitz and Manley - Precision Today has a full discussion .smn

Also - the use of the term "transfer" is not consistent among systems. For instance, the simple act of bidding 1-under the positive, is technically "transfer" but many (Meckwell, for instance) use surrogate bids - 1H->spades, 1S->hearts, 1N->clubs, 2C->diamonds, 2D->balanced. Others compress the positives into 4 bids by integrating the minors, or diamonds with balanced hands.

There was a discussion here in JAN 2014 about "transfer precision" as well.

Kurt