Passed Hand bids after pre-empt

[richlp]

Assume that you are playing with a partner know to be (almost) as good as you are but you have never had a system discussion.

Both Vul
LHO CHO RHO YOU
P P 3C 3H
P 3S P

What kind of hand would you expect from your expert partner?

[Ronald]

Post by richlp
Assume that you are playing with a partner know to be (almost) as good as
you are but you have never had a system discussion.
Both Vul
LHO CHO RHO YOU
P P 3C 3H
P 3S P
What kind of hand would you expect from your expert partner?

Fit-showing

[KWSchneider]

Post by richlp
Assume that you are playing with a partner know to be (almost) as good as you are but you have never had a system discussion.
Both Vul
LHO CHO RHO YOU
P P 3C 3H
P 3S P
What kind of hand would you expect from your expert partner?

It better be fit showing, and slam invitational, else why not simply bid 4H.
However, I'm having a hard time creating a "passed hand" that fits this criteria.
Perhaps something like: Axxxx xxx Axxx x?

Kurt

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by richlp
Assume that you are playing with a partner know to be (almost) as good as you are but you have never had a system discussion.
Both Vul
LHO CHO RHO YOU
P P 3C 3H
P 3S P
What kind of hand would you expect from your expert partner?

Forcing, good spades, 3 small or doubleton heart with a top honour. ie
choice of games.

[richlp]

Post by richlp
Assume that you are playing with a partner know to be (almost) as good as you are but you have never had a system discussion.
Both Vul
LHO CHO RHO YOU
P P 3C 3H
P 3S P
What kind of hand would you expect from your expert partner?

Same auction except your partner is a novice (and not a very good one at that). I realize this becomes a guessing game......what's your best guess.

[Player]

Post by richlp

Post by richlp
Assume that you are playing with a partner know to be (almost) as good as you are but you have never had a system discussion.
Both Vul
LHO CHO RHO YOU
P P 3C 3H
P 3S P
What kind of hand would you expect from your expert partner?

Same auction except your partner is a novice (and not a very good one at that). I realize this becomes a guessing game......what's your best guess.

Now this is impossible to answer. My best guess as before is a fit non jump.

[p***@infi.net]

Post by richlp

Post by richlp
Assume that you are playing with a partner know to be (almost) as good as you are but you have never had a system discussion.
Both Vul
LHO CHO RHO YOU
P P 3C 3H
P 3S P
What kind of hand would you expect from your expert partner?

Same auction except your partner is a novice (and not a very good one at that). I realize this becomes a guessing game......what's your best guess.

I've unfortunately seen this sort of bid a lot. Long, poor suit with a misfit and no excuse for bidding.

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by richlp

Post by richlp
Assume that you are playing with a partner know to be (almost) as good as you are but you have never had a system discussion.
Both Vul
LHO CHO RHO YOU
P P 3C 3H
P 3S P
What kind of hand would you expect from your expert partner?

Same auction except your partner is a novice (and not a very good one at that). I realize this becomes a guessing game......what's your best guess.

You should bid as if they knew what they were doing. If it turns out
they have a bad hand with 4 spades and 1 heart you have a sensible
discussion with them to exlain why it would be better to pass without
saying anything offensive.

[Player]

Post by richlp
Assume that you are playing with a partner know to be (almost) as good as you are but you have never had a system discussion.
Both Vul
LHO CHO RHO YOU
P P 3C 3H
P 3S P
What kind of hand would you expect from your expert partner?

Fit showing jump.

[p***@gmail.com]

Post by richlp
Assume that you are playing with a partner know to be (almost) as good as you are but you have never had a system discussion.
Both Vul
LHO CHO RHO YOU
P P 3C 3H
P 3S P
What kind of hand would you expect from your expert partner?

I'm guessing a hand that was too weak to open 1S but also not right for preempting in spades, so partner passed originally. Maybe he has two aces, a void, a side suit, whatever. Now he's trying to get in the spade bid to describe his hand. He probably has no tolerance for hearts: singleton or void. If partner never passes with a six-card spade suit then forget all that and then it's a choice of games. I don't know if fit-showing non-jumps are standard enough to play without discussion.

[jogs]

Post by richlp
Assume that you are playing with a partner know to be (almost) as good as you are but you have never had a system discussion.
Both Vul
LHO CHO RHO YOU
P P 3C 3H
P 3S P
What kind of hand would you expect from your expert partner?

With no discussion your partner is clearly not an expert.

[richlp]

Post by jogs

Post by richlp
Assume that you are playing with a partner know to be (almost) as good as you are but you have never had a system discussion.
Both Vul
LHO CHO RHO YOU
P P 3C 3H
P 3S P
What kind of hand would you expect from your expert partner?

With no discussion your partner is clearly not an expert.

By that standard you are clearly not one either.

Seriously though, You're on vacation with some free time and set up a home game with some people you've met at several tournaments and whose games you respect. If your system discussion extends to this auction then you wasted a great deal of time which could have been spent actually playing bridge.

Pretend this is where this hand came up.

[Player]

Post by richlp

Post by jogs

Post by richlp
Assume that you are playing with a partner know to be (almost) as good as you are but you have never had a system discussion.
Both Vul
LHO CHO RHO YOU
P P 3C 3H
P 3S P
What kind of hand would you expect from your expert partner?

With no discussion your partner is clearly not an expert.

By that standard you are clearly not one either.
Seriously though, You're on vacation with some free time and set up a home game with some people you've met at several tournaments and whose games you respect. If your system discussion extends to this auction then you wasted a great deal of time which could have been spent actually playing bridge.
Pretend this is where this hand came up.

If this is where the hand came up and you respect the players you met at tournaments , it is obviously a fit non jump.

[f***@googlemail.com]

Post by jogs

Post by richlp
Assume that you are playing with a partner know to be (almost) as good as you are but you have never had a system discussion.
Both Vul
LHO CHO RHO YOU
P P 3C 3H
P 3S P
What kind of hand would you expect from your expert partner?

With no discussion your partner is clearly not an expert.

I have certainly played with expert partners and not discussed this sequence. The length of time you spend discussing bidding agreements is not related to your individual skills and knowledge.

I don't think this is a 'fit non-jump'. I think it is natural, non-forcing and constructive. If I had a heart fit, I would raise hearts. I would bid 3S on something like

KQ10xx
Kx
xx
Qxxx

because I hope to make 4S or 4H (or 3NT).

Or I might have

Axxxxx
Qx
x
Qxxx

which, with bad spade pips, I would not open 2S in second seat vul.

3S is likely to have at least a partial heart fit, because otherwise partner might be somewhat stuck, but I don't think it's compulsory.

[richlp]

Post by richlp
Assume that you are playing with a partner know to be (almost) as good as you are but you have never had a system discussion.
Both Vul
LHO CHO RHO YOU
P P 3C 3H
P 3S P
What kind of hand would you expect from your expert partner?

The rest of the story.................

This hand happened on vacation in Maui. The 3 spade bidder held something like...

K9xxxxx
-
Axx
xxx

In real life she was a complete novice ("I know you learned the game yesterday, but what time yesterday"). This player would never dream of opening 3S vul on that suit or 2S on a seven card suit.

In real life, when the 3H came around to her she PASSED. Of course we got a terrible result, but when the opps started to tell her that she should have bid 3S I told her I agreed completely with the pass. Whatever 3S should be, it shouldn't be this.

I was intrigued enough to wonder what the "default expert" treatment would be. My guess would have been "fit showing with more than just game aspirations" something like

KQTxx Qxx Kxxx x

(although I grant that to some [many???] this may be an opening bid.)

Thanks for all the responses