1NT response over overcall

Post by ***@verizon.net
On BBO, the auction 1C/D - (1S) - 1NT seems to show a weak hand without hearts, and is unrelated to spades. In my recent experience, it has come up ofter and has never had a spade stopper.
Are beginners being taught this method? Why?
Carl

I hope they not being taught this
As it a bad method , it wrongsides the no trump contract

problem may be that
1C-(1S)- DBL -(pass)
1NT does not promise a spade coverage. Maybe some people get confused

Co Wiersma

Fred.

2017-09-10 11:27:20 UTC

Many beginners are now taught that all direct raises of
overcalls are weak. Thus, even against beginners, a passing
responder may find that the next chance to compete is at the
three or four level.

A responder wishing to protect against a quick raise,
of the overcall but lacking a spade stop or support for
opener's possibly short minor, is left with 1NT for a call.

As I see it, the choice is between (over?)reliance on balancing
and the occasional wrong sided or silly no-trump contract.
An added cost of the 1NT choice at match points is that opener
holding an unbalanced hand cannot safely leave 1NT in.

I don't pretend to have a sure answer, but do think the issue
is far more complex than you and Co seem to think. Keep in mind
that the fact of the intervention increases the likelihood that
opener is unbalanced and will pull 1NT.

Fred.

judyorcarl@verizon.net

2017-09-10 13:53:55 UTC

Many beginners are now taught that all direct raises of
overcalls are weak. Thus, even against beginners, a passing
responder may find that the next chance to compete is at the
three or four level.
A responder wishing to protect against a quick raise,
of the overcall but lacking a spade stop or support for
opener's possibly short minor, is left with 1NT for a call.
As I see it, the choice is between (over?)reliance on balancing
and the occasional wrong sided or silly no-trump contract.
An added cost of the 1NT choice at match points is that opener
holding an unbalanced hand cannot safely leave 1NT in.
I don't pretend to have a sure answer, but do think the issue
is far more complex than you and Co seem to think. Keep in mind
that the fact of the intervention increases the likelihood that
opener is unbalanced and will pull 1NT.
Fred.

I don't follow. Do you believe that 1NT will discourage advancer from raising? Only if opponents are unaware of the meaning of the response, and probably not even then.

Yes, if opener is unbalanced, fine. So far, I as opener, have not been when this auction occus.

Carl

Fred.

2017-09-13 17:08:21 UTC

Many beginners are now taught that all direct raises of
overcalls are weak. Thus, even against beginners, a passing
responder may find that the next chance to compete is at the
three or four level.
A responder wishing to protect against a quick raise,
of the overcall but lacking a spade stop or support for
opener's possibly short minor, is left with 1NT for a call.
As I see it, the choice is between (over?)reliance on balancing
and the occasional wrong sided or silly no-trump contract.
An added cost of the 1NT choice at match points is that opener
holding an unbalanced hand cannot safely leave 1NT in.
I don't pretend to have a sure answer, but do think the issue
is far more complex than you and Co seem to think. Keep in mind
that the fact of the intervention increases the likelihood that
opener is unbalanced and will pull 1NT.
Fred.

I don't follow. Do you believe that 1NT will discourage advancer from raising? Only if opponents are unaware of the meaning of the response, and probably not even then.
Yes, if opener is unbalanced, fine. So far, I as opener, have not been when this auction occus.
Carl

I've been playing competitive notrump w/wo stopper in the
context of a weak NT. I'd expect that playing a weak NT
that a higher percentage of 1m openings are unbalanced.

But, the real point is that playing this sort of 1NT
response makes responder's pass less ambiguous so,
regardless of the actual merit of the response, the
poor 1NT contracts cannot be the whole story.

Fred.

judyorcarl@verizon.net

2017-09-13 18:12:04 UTC

Many beginners are now taught that all direct raises of
overcalls are weak. Thus, even against beginners, a passing
responder may find that the next chance to compete is at the
three or four level.
A responder wishing to protect against a quick raise,
of the overcall but lacking a spade stop or support for
opener's possibly short minor, is left with 1NT for a call.
As I see it, the choice is between (over?)reliance on balancing
and the occasional wrong sided or silly no-trump contract.
An added cost of the 1NT choice at match points is that opener
holding an unbalanced hand cannot safely leave 1NT in.
I don't pretend to have a sure answer, but do think the issue
is far more complex than you and Co seem to think. Keep in mind
that the fact of the intervention increases the likelihood that
opener is unbalanced and will pull 1NT.
Fred.

I don't follow. Do you believe that 1NT will discourage advancer from raising? Only if opponents are unaware of the meaning of the response, and probably not even then.
Yes, if opener is unbalanced, fine. So far, I as opener, have not been when this auction occus.
Carl

I've been playing competitive notrump w/wo stopper in the
context of a weak NT. I'd expect that playing a weak NT
that a higher percentage of 1m openings are unbalanced.
But, the real point is that playing this sort of 1NT
response makes responder's pass less ambiguous so,
regardless of the actual merit of the response, the
poor 1NT contracts cannot be the whole story.
Fred.

Are you sure that a less ambiguous pass is a good feature?

If it denies 6 hcp unless great length in overcalled suit, that info is more useful to opponents than to opener. Lots more useful.

Carl

Fred.

2017-09-14 13:02:18 UTC

Many beginners are now taught that all direct raises of
overcalls are weak. Thus, even against beginners, a passing
responder may find that the next chance to compete is at the
three or four level.
A responder wishing to protect against a quick raise,
of the overcall but lacking a spade stop or support for
opener's possibly short minor, is left with 1NT for a call.
As I see it, the choice is between (over?)reliance on balancing
and the occasional wrong sided or silly no-trump contract.
An added cost of the 1NT choice at match points is that opener
holding an unbalanced hand cannot safely leave 1NT in.
I don't pretend to have a sure answer, but do think the issue
is far more complex than you and Co seem to think. Keep in mind
that the fact of the intervention increases the likelihood that
opener is unbalanced and will pull 1NT.
Fred.

I don't follow. Do you believe that 1NT will discourage advancer from raising? Only if opponents are unaware of the meaning of the response, and probably not even then.
Yes, if opener is unbalanced, fine. So far, I as opener, have not been when this auction occus.
Carl

I've been playing competitive notrump w/wo stopper in the
context of a weak NT. I'd expect that playing a weak NT
that a higher percentage of 1m openings are unbalanced.
But, the real point is that playing this sort of 1NT
response makes responder's pass less ambiguous so,
regardless of the actual merit of the response, the
poor 1NT contracts cannot be the whole story.
Fred.

Are you sure that a less ambiguous pass is a good feature?
If it denies 6 hcp unless great length in overcalled suit, that info is more useful to opponents than to opener. Lots more useful.
Carl

The pass's usefulness to opener is that it warns off competition
unless an action is really clear.

The usefulness to the opponents is less obvious. If they have
a big fit they will know that responder is weak. But with a
still unlimited opener they will get better information about
their assets from their own system of raises than that they
get from seeing responder's weakness. They would play opener
for the lion's share of the high cards in either case.

An advancer understanding the pass as a warn-off might choose
to raise to 2S instead of preempting 3S.

We see lots of 1m (1M) ? (2M) and are happy enough with our
choices in these situations to ignore the occasional bad 1NT.

Fred.

judyorcarl@verizon.net

2017-09-14 14:41:42 UTC