6D or 6NT?

[nrford100]

Me:
S: 5
H: A94
D: AK7543
C: K74

Pard opened 1NT. At his request, we play minor suit transfers. I prefer a 2N relay to 3C - pass or correct, leaving 3C and 3D available for a good 6-card suit with slam interest a la SAYC.

I've got 14 HCP and pard has 15-17 HCP for a total of 29-31 HCP, and he will have at least 2 diamonds, meaning (in my mind) I can count my distribution, giving us 31-33 points playing 6D.

Using Losing Trick Count, I have 6 losers and he has ~6 for his 15-17. 24-12=6D, so I just bid it. (Does LTC still apply if you have a fit but play it in NT?)

At this club, only a few people are going to bid a slam with only 29-31 HCP, meaning that even if someone bids 6NT, the 6D slam earns about as many points and seems safer.

Turns out 12 was a laydown and sure enough, out of 13 tables, 3 of us bid 6D and 1 bid 6NT.

The question is -- With all my "aces and spaces" and only 29-31 actual HCP, should I have Gerber-ed my way to 6NT?

[Hotzenplotz]

Post by nrford100
S: 5
H: A94
D: AK7543
C: K74
Pard opened 1NT. At his request, we play minor suit transfers. I prefer a 2N relay to 3C - pass or correct, leaving 3C and 3D available for a good 6-card suit with slam interest a la SAYC.
I've got 14 HCP and pard has 15-17 HCP for a total of 29-31 HCP, and he will have at least 2 diamonds, meaning (in my mind) I can count my distribution, giving us 31-33 points playing 6D.
Using Losing Trick Count, I have 6 losers and he has ~6 for his 15-17. 24-12=6D, so I just bid it. (Does LTC still apply if you have a fit but play it in NT?)
At this club, only a few people are going to bid a slam with only 29-31 HCP, meaning that even if someone bids 6NT, the 6D slam earns about as many points and seems safer.
Turns out 12 was a laydown and sure enough, out of 13 tables, 3 of us bid 6D and 1 bid 6NT.
The question is -- With all my "aces and spaces" and only 29-31 actual HCP, should I have Gerber-ed my way to 6NT?

What will Gerber tell you? Nothing! Transfer to D and then bid 3S showing a singleton.

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by Hotzenplotz

Post by nrford100
S: 5
H: A94
D: AK7543
C: K74
Pard opened 1NT. At his request, we play minor suit transfers. I prefer a 2N relay to 3C - pass or correct, leaving 3C and 3D available for a good 6-card suit with slam interest a la SAYC.
I've got 14 HCP and pard has 15-17 HCP for a total of 29-31 HCP, and he will have at least 2 diamonds, meaning (in my mind) I can count my distribution, giving us 31-33 points playing 6D.
Using Losing Trick Count, I have 6 losers and he has ~6 for his 15-17. 24-12=6D, so I just bid it. (Does LTC still apply if you have a fit but play it in NT?)
At this club, only a few people are going to bid a slam with only 29-31 HCP, meaning that even if someone bids 6NT, the 6D slam earns about as many points and seems safer.
Turns out 12 was a laydown and sure enough, out of 13 tables, 3 of us bid 6D and 1 bid 6NT.
The question is -- With all my "aces and spaces" and only 29-31 actual HCP, should I have Gerber-ed my way to 6NT?

What will Gerber tell you? Nothing!

Transfer to D and then bid 3S showing a singleton.

This is correct - involve partner in the decision!


doug

[ais523]

Post by nrford100
S: 5
H: A94
D: AK7543
C: K74
Pard opened 1NT. At his request, we play minor suit transfers. I
prefer a 2N relay to 3C - pass or correct, leaving 3C and 3D available
for a good 6-card suit with slam interest a la SAYC.
I've got 14 HCP and pard has 15-17 HCP for a total of 29-31 HCP, and
he will have at least 2 diamonds, meaning (in my mind) I can count my
distribution, giving us 31-33 points playing 6D.
Using Losing Trick Count, I have 6 losers and he has ~6 for his 15-17.
24-12=6D, so I just bid it. (Does LTC still apply if you have a fit
but play it in NT?)
At this club, only a few people are going to bid a slam with only
29-31 HCP, meaning that even if someone bids 6NT, the 6D slam earns
about as many points and seems safer.
Turns out 12 was a laydown and sure enough, out of 13 tables, 3 of us bid 6D and 1 bid 6NT.
The question is -- With all my "aces and spaces" and only 29-31 actual
HCP, should I have Gerber-ed my way to 6NT?

You need information to determine which contract would be best. Gerber
is probably the wrong sort of information for the job; a "two" reply
would be very reassuring, but what are you going to do if you discover
that your partner has only one ace?

I agree with you that 6D is a safe bid (it's theoretically possible
that you're off two Aces but likely worth the risk). 6NT is /not/ a safe
bid; it seems like there's a real risk that spades is unstopped, or
that the opponents hold the AQ of clubs (your partner's opening
offsides the club stopper), or that you have to take your side's only
spade stopper early and the opponents later come back in with clubs
and run spades.

Losing Trick Count isn't a great fit for notrump contracts, even if you
have a fit. It can come up with a decent approximation of how many
tricks you can win, but in notrumps, is very bad at predicting how many
tricks the opponents can win first.

What the system would really benefit from would be a way to ask about
the side suits. Many partnerships have an agreement that transferring to
diamonds and then bidding 3S shows concern about spades. If you get a
reply of "I'm unconcerned about spades" (most likely 3NT for obvious
reasons), that would make the notrump slam seem much more appealing.

[Dave Flower]

Post by ais523

Post by nrford100
S: 5
H: A94
D: AK7543
C: K74
Pard opened 1NT. At his request, we play minor suit transfers. I
prefer a 2N relay to 3C - pass or correct, leaving 3C and 3D available
for a good 6-card suit with slam interest a la SAYC.
I've got 14 HCP and pard has 15-17 HCP for a total of 29-31 HCP, and
he will have at least 2 diamonds, meaning (in my mind) I can count my
distribution, giving us 31-33 points playing 6D.
Using Losing Trick Count, I have 6 losers and he has ~6 for his 15-17.
24-12=6D, so I just bid it. (Does LTC still apply if you have a fit
but play it in NT?)
At this club, only a few people are going to bid a slam with only
29-31 HCP, meaning that even if someone bids 6NT, the 6D slam earns
about as many points and seems safer.
Turns out 12 was a laydown and sure enough, out of 13 tables, 3 of us
bid 6D and 1 bid 6NT.
The question is -- With all my "aces and spaces" and only 29-31 actual
HCP, should I have Gerber-ed my way to 6NT?

You need information to determine which contract would be best. Gerber
is probably the wrong sort of information for the job; a "two" reply
would be very reassuring, but what are you going to do if you discover
that your partner has only one ace?
I agree with you that 6D is a safe bid (it's theoretically possible
that you're off two Aces but likely worth the risk). 6NT is /not/ a safe
bid; it seems like there's a real risk that spades is unstopped, or
that the opponents hold the AQ of clubs (your partner's opening
offsides the club stopper), or that you have to take your side's only
spade stopper early and the opponents later come back in with clubs
and run spades.
Losing Trick Count isn't a great fit for notrump contracts, even if you
have a fit. It can come up with a decent approximation of how many
tricks you can win, but in notrumps, is very bad at predicting how many
tricks the opponents can win first.
What the system would really benefit from would be a way to ask about
the side suits. Many partnerships have an agreement that transferring to
diamonds and then bidding 3S shows concern about spades. If you get a
reply of "I'm unconcerned about spades" (most likely 3NT for obvious
reasons), that would make the notrump slam seem much more appealing.
--
ais523

Surely Gerber is superior to an immediate 6D ?

Making 5D will not score less than 6D-1

Dave Flower

[ais523]

Post by Dave Flower
Surely Gerber is superior to an immediate 6D ?
Making 5D will not score less than 6D-1

In most cases, yes. (The only time blasting 6D might be superior would
be if it causes your opponents to lead the wrong suit, and you end up
making the slam off two Aces.)

However, if you decide to be scientific about it, there are nearly
always better options than Gerber, unless it's your side's only
available slam convention. In most cases (including the case being
discussed in this thread), being off two Aces is not the only potential
threat to the slam, so the questions you ask need to be tailored about
the information you want to know. It also has the disadvantage that your
partner won't know what suit you have (meaning that it's hard to convey
information about, e.g., the King of trumps).

[nrford100]

Post by ais523

Post by nrford100
S: 5
H: A94
D: AK7543
C: K74
Pard opened 1NT. At his request, we play minor suit transfers. I
prefer a 2N relay to 3C - pass or correct, leaving 3C and 3D available
for a good 6-card suit with slam interest a la SAYC.
I've got 14 HCP and pard has 15-17 HCP for a total of 29-31 HCP, and
he will have at least 2 diamonds, meaning (in my mind) I can count my
distribution, giving us 31-33 points playing 6D.
Using Losing Trick Count, I have 6 losers and he has ~6 for his 15-17.
24-12=6D, so I just bid it. (Does LTC still apply if you have a fit
but play it in NT?)
At this club, only a few people are going to bid a slam with only
29-31 HCP, meaning that even if someone bids 6NT, the 6D slam earns
about as many points and seems safer.
Turns out 12 was a laydown and sure enough, out of 13 tables, 3 of us
bid 6D and 1 bid 6NT.
The question is -- With all my "aces and spaces" and only 29-31 actual
HCP, should I have Gerber-ed my way to 6NT?

You need information to determine which contract would be best. Gerber
is probably the wrong sort of information for the job; a "two" reply
would be very reassuring, but what are you going to do if you discover
that your partner has only one ace?
I agree with you that 6D is a safe bid (it's theoretically possible
that you're off two Aces but likely worth the risk). 6NT is /not/ a safe
bid; it seems like there's a real risk that spades is unstopped, or
that the opponents hold the AQ of clubs (your partner's opening
offsides the club stopper), or that you have to take your side's only
spade stopper early and the opponents later come back in with clubs
and run spades.
Losing Trick Count isn't a great fit for notrump contracts, even if you
have a fit. It can come up with a decent approximation of how many
tricks you can win, but in notrumps, is very bad at predicting how many
tricks the opponents can win first.
What the system would really benefit from would be a way to ask about
the side suits. Many partnerships have an agreement that transferring to
diamonds and then bidding 3S shows concern about spades. If you get a
reply of "I'm unconcerned about spades" (most likely 3NT for obvious
reasons), that would make the notrump slam seem much more appealing.
--
ais523

Coincidentally, in today's paper (Dec. 22), the Becker bridge column had a deal with this hand:

-
Q5
A98642
AK852

and this bidding
1N - 3D
3H - 4D
4D - 6D

I assume that 3D is showing 6+ and slam interest and 3H and 4C are both showing aces, but I don’t know why opener bid 4D instead of 4S to show his other Ace.

The only problem for me was that I didn't have that 3D bid because of transfers.

When I showed your reply to pard, he suggested Minorwood - 1N-3C(tsfr)-3D-4D which seems to me like it would have worked, had we previously agreed to it.

[nrford100]

Post by ais523

Post by nrford100
S: 5
H: A94
D: AK7543
C: K74
Pard opened 1NT. At his request, we play minor suit transfers. I
prefer a 2N relay to 3C - pass or correct, leaving 3C and 3D available
for a good 6-card suit with slam interest a la SAYC.
I've got 14 HCP and pard has 15-17 HCP for a total of 29-31 HCP, and
he will have at least 2 diamonds, meaning (in my mind) I can count my
distribution, giving us 31-33 points playing 6D.
Using Losing Trick Count, I have 6 losers and he has ~6 for his 15-17.
24-12=6D, so I just bid it. (Does LTC still apply if you have a fit
but play it in NT?)
At this club, only a few people are going to bid a slam with only
29-31 HCP, meaning that even if someone bids 6NT, the 6D slam earns
about as many points and seems safer.
Turns out 12 was a laydown and sure enough, out of 13 tables, 3 of us
bid 6D and 1 bid 6NT.
The question is -- With all my "aces and spaces" and only 29-31 actual
HCP, should I have Gerber-ed my way to 6NT?

You need information to determine which contract would be best. Gerber
is probably the wrong sort of information for the job; a "two" reply
would be very reassuring, but what are you going to do if you discover
that your partner has only one ace?
I agree with you that 6D is a safe bid (it's theoretically possible
that you're off two Aces but likely worth the risk). 6NT is /not/ a safe
bid; it seems like there's a real risk that spades is unstopped, or
that the opponents hold the AQ of clubs (your partner's opening
offsides the club stopper), or that you have to take your side's only
spade stopper early and the opponents later come back in with clubs
and run spades.
Losing Trick Count isn't a great fit for notrump contracts, even if you
have a fit. It can come up with a decent approximation of how many
tricks you can win, but in notrumps, is very bad at predicting how many
tricks the opponents can win first.
What the system would really benefit from would be a way to ask about
the side suits. Many partnerships have an agreement that transferring to
diamonds and then bidding 3S shows concern about spades. If you get a
reply of "I'm unconcerned about spades" (most likely 3NT for obvious
reasons), that would make the notrump slam seem much more appealing.
--
ais523

Coincidentally, in today's paper (Dec. 22), the Becker bridge column had a deal with this hand:

-
Q5
A98642
AK852

and this bidding
1N - 3D
3H - 4C
4D - 6D

I assume that 3D is showing 6+ and slam interest and 3H and 4C are both showing aces, but I don’t know why opener bid 4D instead of 4S to show his other Ace.

The only problem for me was that I didn't have that 3D bid because of transfers.

When I showed your reply to pard, he suggested Minorwood - 1N-3C(tsfr)-3D-4D which seems to me like it would have worked, had we previously agreed to it.

[Hotzenplotz]

Post by nrford100

Post by ais523

Post by nrford100
S: 5
H: A94
D: AK7543
C: K74
Pard opened 1NT. At his request, we play minor suit transfers. I
prefer a 2N relay to 3C - pass or correct, leaving 3C and 3D available
for a good 6-card suit with slam interest a la SAYC.
I've got 14 HCP and pard has 15-17 HCP for a total of 29-31 HCP, and
he will have at least 2 diamonds, meaning (in my mind) I can count my
distribution, giving us 31-33 points playing 6D.
Using Losing Trick Count, I have 6 losers and he has ~6 for his 15-17.
24-12=6D, so I just bid it. (Does LTC still apply if you have a fit
but play it in NT?)
At this club, only a few people are going to bid a slam with only
29-31 HCP, meaning that even if someone bids 6NT, the 6D slam earns
about as many points and seems safer.
Turns out 12 was a laydown and sure enough, out of 13 tables, 3 of us
bid 6D and 1 bid 6NT.
The question is -- With all my "aces and spaces" and only 29-31 actual
HCP, should I have Gerber-ed my way to 6NT?

You need information to determine which contract would be best. Gerber
is probably the wrong sort of information for the job; a "two" reply
would be very reassuring, but what are you going to do if you discover
that your partner has only one ace?
I agree with you that 6D is a safe bid (it's theoretically possible
that you're off two Aces but likely worth the risk). 6NT is /not/ a safe
bid; it seems like there's a real risk that spades is unstopped, or
that the opponents hold the AQ of clubs (your partner's opening
offsides the club stopper), or that you have to take your side's only
spade stopper early and the opponents later come back in with clubs
and run spades.
Losing Trick Count isn't a great fit for notrump contracts, even if you
have a fit. It can come up with a decent approximation of how many
tricks you can win, but in notrumps, is very bad at predicting how many
tricks the opponents can win first.
What the system would really benefit from would be a way to ask about
the side suits. Many partnerships have an agreement that transferring to
diamonds and then bidding 3S shows concern about spades. If you get a
reply of "I'm unconcerned about spades" (most likely 3NT for obvious
reasons), that would make the notrump slam seem much more appealing.
--
ais523

-
Q5
A98642
AK852
and this bidding
1N - 3D
3H - 4C
4D - 6D
I assume that 3D is showing 6+ and slam interest and 3H and 4C are both showing aces, but I don’t know why opener bid 4D instead of 4S to show his other Ace.
The only problem for me was that I didn't have that 3D bid because of transfers.
When I showed your reply to pard, he suggested Minorwood - 1N-3C(tsfr)-3D-4D which seems to me like it would have worked, had we previously agreed to it.

Clearly a useless article. How many play 3D as natural and slammish these days?

[Fred.]

Post by Hotzenplotz

Post by nrford100

Post by ais523

Post by nrford100
S: 5
H: A94
D: AK7543
C: K74
Pard opened 1NT. At his request, we play minor suit transfers. I
prefer a 2N relay to 3C - pass or correct, leaving 3C and 3D available
for a good 6-card suit with slam interest a la SAYC.
I've got 14 HCP and pard has 15-17 HCP for a total of 29-31 HCP, and
he will have at least 2 diamonds, meaning (in my mind) I can count my
distribution, giving us 31-33 points playing 6D.
Using Losing Trick Count, I have 6 losers and he has ~6 for his 15-17.
24-12=6D, so I just bid it. (Does LTC still apply if you have a fit
but play it in NT?)
At this club, only a few people are going to bid a slam with only
29-31 HCP, meaning that even if someone bids 6NT, the 6D slam earns
about as many points and seems safer.
Turns out 12 was a laydown and sure enough, out of 13 tables, 3 of us
bid 6D and 1 bid 6NT.
The question is -- With all my "aces and spaces" and only 29-31 actual
HCP, should I have Gerber-ed my way to 6NT?

You need information to determine which contract would be best. Gerber
is probably the wrong sort of information for the job; a "two" reply
would be very reassuring, but what are you going to do if you discover
that your partner has only one ace?
I agree with you that 6D is a safe bid (it's theoretically possible
that you're off two Aces but likely worth the risk). 6NT is /not/ a safe
bid; it seems like there's a real risk that spades is unstopped, or
that the opponents hold the AQ of clubs (your partner's opening
offsides the club stopper), or that you have to take your side's only
spade stopper early and the opponents later come back in with clubs
and run spades.
Losing Trick Count isn't a great fit for notrump contracts, even if you
have a fit. It can come up with a decent approximation of how many
tricks you can win, but in notrumps, is very bad at predicting how many
tricks the opponents can win first.
What the system would really benefit from would be a way to ask about
the side suits. Many partnerships have an agreement that transferring to
diamonds and then bidding 3S shows concern about spades. If you get a
reply of "I'm unconcerned about spades" (most likely 3NT for obvious
reasons), that would make the notrump slam seem much more appealing.
--
ais523

-
Q5
A98642
AK852
and this bidding
1N - 3D
3H - 4C
4D - 6D
I assume that 3D is showing 6+ and slam interest and 3H and 4C are both showing aces, but I don’t know why opener bid 4D instead of 4S to show his other Ace.
The only problem for me was that I didn't have that 3D bid because of transfers.
When I showed your reply to pard, he suggested Minorwood - 1N-3C(tsfr)-3D-4D which seems to me like it would have worked, had we previously agreed to it.

Clearly a useless article. How many play 3D as natural and slammish these days?

My partner and I don't play 3D as natural and slammish, but
would bid this hand via:

1NT 2C
2X 3D

Once in a great while we languish in 5m when 3NT makes with
an overtrick, but we usually wind up in the right place,
including plenty of good minor suit slams neglected by most
of the field.

Maybe what you should be getting from the article is that
while at match points minor suit games are for the birds,
minor suit slams are not.


Fred.

[Hotzenplotz]

Post by Fred.

Post by Hotzenplotz

Post by nrford100

Post by ais523

Post by nrford100
S: 5
H: A94
D: AK7543
C: K74
Pard opened 1NT. At his request, we play minor suit transfers. I
prefer a 2N relay to 3C - pass or correct, leaving 3C and 3D available
for a good 6-card suit with slam interest a la SAYC.
I've got 14 HCP and pard has 15-17 HCP for a total of 29-31 HCP, and
he will have at least 2 diamonds, meaning (in my mind) I can count my
distribution, giving us 31-33 points playing 6D.
Using Losing Trick Count, I have 6 losers and he has ~6 for his 15-17.
24-12=6D, so I just bid it. (Does LTC still apply if you have a fit
but play it in NT?)
At this club, only a few people are going to bid a slam with only
29-31 HCP, meaning that even if someone bids 6NT, the 6D slam earns
about as many points and seems safer.
Turns out 12 was a laydown and sure enough, out of 13 tables, 3 of us
bid 6D and 1 bid 6NT.
The question is -- With all my "aces and spaces" and only 29-31 actual
HCP, should I have Gerber-ed my way to 6NT?

You need information to determine which contract would be best. Gerber
is probably the wrong sort of information for the job; a "two" reply
would be very reassuring, but what are you going to do if you discover
that your partner has only one ace?
I agree with you that 6D is a safe bid (it's theoretically possible
that you're off two Aces but likely worth the risk). 6NT is /not/ a safe
bid; it seems like there's a real risk that spades is unstopped, or
that the opponents hold the AQ of clubs (your partner's opening
offsides the club stopper), or that you have to take your side's only
spade stopper early and the opponents later come back in with clubs
and run spades.
Losing Trick Count isn't a great fit for notrump contracts, even if you
have a fit. It can come up with a decent approximation of how many
tricks you can win, but in notrumps, is very bad at predicting how many
tricks the opponents can win first.
What the system would really benefit from would be a way to ask about
the side suits. Many partnerships have an agreement that transferring to
diamonds and then bidding 3S shows concern about spades. If you get a
reply of "I'm unconcerned about spades" (most likely 3NT for obvious
reasons), that would make the notrump slam seem much more appealing.
--
ais523

-
Q5
A98642
AK852
and this bidding
1N - 3D
3H - 4C
4D - 6D
I assume that 3D is showing 6+ and slam interest and 3H and 4C are both showing aces, but I don’t know why opener bid 4D instead of 4S to show his other Ace.
The only problem for me was that I didn't have that 3D bid because of transfers.
When I showed your reply to pard, he suggested Minorwood - 1N-3C(tsfr)-3D-4D which seems to me like it would have worked, had we previously agreed to it.

Clearly a useless article. How many play 3D as natural and slammish these days?

My partner and I don't play 3D as natural and slammish, but
1NT 2C
2X 3D
Once in a great while we languish in 5m when 3NT makes with
an overtrick, but we usually wind up in the right place,
including plenty of good minor suit slams neglected by most
of the field.
Maybe what you should be getting from the article is that
while at match points minor suit games are for the birds,
minor suit slams are not.
Fred.

This is a common misconception. Bid to a good 5m where you know 3N has little play and you will score well. Where does it say it is MPs anyway?

[Fred.]

Post by Hotzenplotz

Post by Fred.

Post by Hotzenplotz

Post by nrford100

Post by ais523

Post by nrford100
S: 5
H: A94
D: AK7543
C: K74
Pard opened 1NT. At his request, we play minor suit transfers. I
prefer a 2N relay to 3C - pass or correct, leaving 3C and 3D available
for a good 6-card suit with slam interest a la SAYC.
I've got 14 HCP and pard has 15-17 HCP for a total of 29-31 HCP, and
he will have at least 2 diamonds, meaning (in my mind) I can count my
distribution, giving us 31-33 points playing 6D.
Using Losing Trick Count, I have 6 losers and he has ~6 for his 15-17.
24-12=6D, so I just bid it. (Does LTC still apply if you have a fit
but play it in NT?)
At this club, only a few people are going to bid a slam with only
29-31 HCP, meaning that even if someone bids 6NT, the 6D slam earns
about as many points and seems safer.
Turns out 12 was a laydown and sure enough, out of 13 tables, 3 of us
bid 6D and 1 bid 6NT.
The question is -- With all my "aces and spaces" and only 29-31 actual
HCP, should I have Gerber-ed my way to 6NT?

You need information to determine which contract would be best. Gerber
is probably the wrong sort of information for the job; a "two" reply
would be very reassuring, but what are you going to do if you discover
that your partner has only one ace?
I agree with you that 6D is a safe bid (it's theoretically possible
that you're off two Aces but likely worth the risk). 6NT is /not/ a safe
bid; it seems like there's a real risk that spades is unstopped, or
that the opponents hold the AQ of clubs (your partner's opening
offsides the club stopper), or that you have to take your side's only
spade stopper early and the opponents later come back in with clubs
and run spades.
Losing Trick Count isn't a great fit for notrump contracts, even if you
have a fit. It can come up with a decent approximation of how many
tricks you can win, but in notrumps, is very bad at predicting how many
tricks the opponents can win first.
What the system would really benefit from would be a way to ask about
the side suits. Many partnerships have an agreement that transferring to
diamonds and then bidding 3S shows concern about spades. If you get a
reply of "I'm unconcerned about spades" (most likely 3NT for obvious
reasons), that would make the notrump slam seem much more appealing.
--
ais523

-
Q5
A98642
AK852
and this bidding
1N - 3D
3H - 4C
4D - 6D
I assume that 3D is showing 6+ and slam interest and 3H and 4C are both showing aces, but I don’t know why opener bid 4D instead of 4S to show his other Ace.
The only problem for me was that I didn't have that 3D bid because of transfers.
When I showed your reply to pard, he suggested Minorwood - 1N-3C(tsfr)-3D-4D which seems to me like it would have worked, had we previously agreed to it.

Clearly a useless article. How many play 3D as natural and slammish these days?

My partner and I don't play 3D as natural and slammish, but
1NT 2C
2X 3D
Once in a great while we languish in 5m when 3NT makes with
an overtrick, but we usually wind up in the right place,
including plenty of good minor suit slams neglected by most
of the field.
Maybe what you should be getting from the article is that
while at match points minor suit games are for the birds,
minor suit slams are not.
Fred.

This is a common misconception. Bid to a good 5m where you know 3N has little play and you will score well. Where does it say it is MPs anyway?

My experience is that when 3NT is a poor contract a minor part
score will usually do almost as well as 5m when 5m makes and
considerably better when 5m doesn't. The only time I want to
play 5m is when the hands add up to slam, the controls don't,
and 3NT is dodgy.

The OP did say that it was a club game and indicated that the
scoring difference between 6D and 6NT could be but
probably was not important. Plus, no one said me "nay" when
I said I was assuming MP in my previous post.

Fred.

[nrford100]

Post by Fred.

Post by Hotzenplotz

Post by Fred.

Post by Hotzenplotz

Post by nrford100

Post by ais523

Post by nrford100
S: 5
H: A94
D: AK7543
C: K74
Pard opened 1NT. At his request, we play minor suit transfers. I
prefer a 2N relay to 3C - pass or correct, leaving 3C and 3D available
for a good 6-card suit with slam interest a la SAYC.
I've got 14 HCP and pard has 15-17 HCP for a total of 29-31 HCP, and
he will have at least 2 diamonds, meaning (in my mind) I can count my
distribution, giving us 31-33 points playing 6D.
Using Losing Trick Count, I have 6 losers and he has ~6 for his 15-17.
24-12=6D, so I just bid it. (Does LTC still apply if you have a fit
but play it in NT?)
At this club, only a few people are going to bid a slam with only
29-31 HCP, meaning that even if someone bids 6NT, the 6D slam earns
about as many points and seems safer.
Turns out 12 was a laydown and sure enough, out of 13 tables, 3 of us
bid 6D and 1 bid 6NT.
The question is -- With all my "aces and spaces" and only 29-31 actual
HCP, should I have Gerber-ed my way to 6NT?

You need information to determine which contract would be best. Gerber
is probably the wrong sort of information for the job; a "two" reply
would be very reassuring, but what are you going to do if you discover
that your partner has only one ace?
I agree with you that 6D is a safe bid (it's theoretically possible
that you're off two Aces but likely worth the risk). 6NT is /not/ a safe
bid; it seems like there's a real risk that spades is unstopped, or
that the opponents hold the AQ of clubs (your partner's opening
offsides the club stopper), or that you have to take your side's only
spade stopper early and the opponents later come back in with clubs
and run spades.
Losing Trick Count isn't a great fit for notrump contracts, even if you
have a fit. It can come up with a decent approximation of how many
tricks you can win, but in notrumps, is very bad at predicting how many
tricks the opponents can win first.
What the system would really benefit from would be a way to ask about
the side suits. Many partnerships have an agreement that transferring to
diamonds and then bidding 3S shows concern about spades. If you get a
reply of "I'm unconcerned about spades" (most likely 3NT for obvious
reasons), that would make the notrump slam seem much more appealing.
--
ais523

-
Q5
A98642
AK852
and this bidding
1N - 3D
3H - 4C
4D - 6D
I assume that 3D is showing 6+ and slam interest and 3H and 4C are both showing aces, but I don’t know why opener bid 4D instead of 4S to show his other Ace.
The only problem for me was that I didn't have that 3D bid because of transfers.
When I showed your reply to pard, he suggested Minorwood - 1N-3C(tsfr)-3D-4D which seems to me like it would have worked, had we previously agreed to it.

Clearly a useless article. How many play 3D as natural and slammish these days?

My partner and I don't play 3D as natural and slammish, but
1NT 2C
2X 3D
Once in a great while we languish in 5m when 3NT makes with
an overtrick, but we usually wind up in the right place,
including plenty of good minor suit slams neglected by most
of the field.
Maybe what you should be getting from the article is that
while at match points minor suit games are for the birds,
minor suit slams are not.
Fred.

This is a common misconception. Bid to a good 5m where you know 3N has little play and you will score well. Where does it say it is MPs anyway?

My experience is that when 3NT is a poor contract a minor part
score will usually do almost as well as 5m when 5m makes and
considerably better when 5m doesn't. The only time I want to
play 5m is when the hands add up to slam, the controls don't,
and 3NT is dodgy.
The OP did say that it was a club game and indicated that the
scoring difference between 6D and 6NT could be but
probably was not important. Plus, no one said me "nay" when
I said I was assuming MP in my previous post.
Fred.

Yes, it was MO. I thought the things you just pointed out made it obvious, but I should have been explicit. Sorry.

[Fred.]

Post by nrford100
S: 5
H: A94
D: AK7543
C: K74
Pard opened 1NT. At his request, we play minor suit transfers. I prefer a 2N relay to 3C - pass or correct, leaving 3C and 3D available for a good 6-card suit with slam interest a la SAYC.
I've got 14 HCP and pard has 15-17 HCP for a total of 29-31 HCP, and he will have at least 2 diamonds, meaning (in my mind) I can count my distribution, giving us 31-33 points playing 6D.
Using Losing Trick Count, I have 6 losers and he has ~6 for his 15-17. 24-12=6D, so I just bid it. (Does LTC still apply if you have a fit but play it in NT?)
At this club, only a few people are going to bid a slam with only 29-31 HCP, meaning that even if someone bids 6NT, the 6D slam earns about as many points and seems safer.
Turns out 12 was a laydown and sure enough, out of 13 tables, 3 of us bid 6D and 1 bid 6NT.
The question is -- With all my "aces and spaces" and only 29-31 actual HCP, should I have Gerber-ed my way to 6NT?

It's nice to mention the scoring, which I assume here is MP.

Partner has plenty of room to be off an ace and the DQ or 2 aces, so
with a partner who I can count on to take meaningful action over 3D,
I would start with 3D and take that partner's temperature. Any of
3NT, 5D, and 6D may be the best spot. With a maximum of 31 HCP
I think 6NT is asking for trouble.

With a less desirable partner you can go through the motions
providing the opponents with plenty of information and still
be guessing. Here you may as well make the value bid of 6D
which at least can be counted on to score well if it makes.

Fred.

[Lorne]

Post by nrford100
S: 5
H: A94
D: AK7543
C: K74
Pard opened 1NT. At his request, we play minor suit transfers. I prefer a 2N relay to 3C - pass or correct, leaving 3C and 3D available for a good 6-card suit with slam interest a la SAYC.
I've got 14 HCP and pard has 15-17 HCP for a total of 29-31 HCP, and he will have at least 2 diamonds, meaning (in my mind) I can count my distribution, giving us 31-33 points playing 6D.
Using Losing Trick Count, I have 6 losers and he has ~6 for his 15-17. 24-12=6D, so I just bid it. (Does LTC still apply if you have a fit but play it in NT?)
At this club, only a few people are going to bid a slam with only 29-31 HCP, meaning that even if someone bids 6NT, the 6D slam earns about as many points and seems safer.
Turns out 12 was a laydown and sure enough, out of 13 tables, 3 of us bid 6D and 1 bid 6NT.
The question is -- With all my "aces and spaces" and only 29-31 actual HCP, should I have Gerber-ed my way to 6NT?

LTC is only valid in suit sontracts with a fit. For NT contracts HCP's
and long solid suits are the most relevant.

For this hand do you play stayman followed by a minor as forcing ? If
yes then a transfer to a minor followed by a major shows slam interest
with a singleton in the major and lets partner make a sensible decision
between 6N and 6D.

Otherwise it is difficult to get the info you need so punting 6D is a
long term winner IMO when you have less than 33pts.

[nrford100]

Post by Lorne

Post by nrford100
S: 5
H: A94
D: AK7543
C: K74
Pard opened 1NT. At his request, we play minor suit transfers. I prefer a 2N relay to 3C - pass or correct, leaving 3C and 3D available for a good 6-card suit with slam interest a la SAYC.
I've got 14 HCP and pard has 15-17 HCP for a total of 29-31 HCP, and he will have at least 2 diamonds, meaning (in my mind) I can count my distribution, giving us 31-33 points playing 6D.
Using Losing Trick Count, I have 6 losers and he has ~6 for his 15-17. 24-12=6D, so I just bid it. (Does LTC still apply if you have a fit but play it in NT?)
At this club, only a few people are going to bid a slam with only 29-31 HCP, meaning that even if someone bids 6NT, the 6D slam earns about as many points and seems safer.
Turns out 12 was a laydown and sure enough, out of 13 tables, 3 of us bid 6D and 1 bid 6NT.
The question is -- With all my "aces and spaces" and only 29-31 actual HCP, should I have Gerber-ed my way to 6NT?

LTC is only valid in suit sontracts with a fit. For NT contracts HCP's
and long solid suits are the most relevant.
For this hand do you play stayman followed by a minor as forcing ? If
yes then a transfer to a minor followed by a major shows slam interest
with a singleton in the major and lets partner make a sensible decision
between 6N and 6D.
Otherwise it is difficult to get the info you need so punting 6D is a
long term winner IMO when you have less than 33pts.

I was playing with an infrequent partner. We hadn't discussed this situation.

[kingfish]

Post by nrford100
S: 5
H: A94
D: AK7543
C: K74
Pard opened 1NT. At his request, we play minor suit transfers. I prefer a 2N relay to 3C - pass or correct, leaving 3C and 3D available for a good 6-card suit with slam interest a la SAYC.
I've got 14 HCP and pard has 15-17 HCP for a total of 29-31 HCP, and he will have at least 2 diamonds, meaning (in my mind) I can count my distribution, giving us 31-33 points playing 6D.
Using Losing Trick Count, I have 6 losers and he has ~6 for his 15-17. 24-12=6D, so I just bid it. (Does LTC still apply if you have a fit but play it in NT?)
At this club, only a few people are going to bid a slam with only 29-31 HCP, meaning that even if someone bids 6NT, the 6D slam earns about as many points and seems safer.
Turns out 12 was a laydown and sure enough, out of 13 tables, 3 of us bid 6D and 1 bid 6NT.
The question is -- With all my "aces and spaces" and only 29-31 actual HCP, should I have Gerber-ed my way to 6NT?

Some years back, in a club game, my partner opened a hand with 2 aces and 2 kings, and out. After Blackwood, I discovered his 2 aces and 2 kings, and called 7H, which, after great thought, he corrected to 7NT. 7H was cold, 7NT failed. I inquired why he converted to 7NT, and he replied that he was trying to outscore all other pairs by being in NT. An interesting point is that we were the only pair in 7. Not being in NT would be best in any slam that may not be a popular contract.

[Mick Heins]

Post by nrford100
S: 5
H: A94
D: AK7543
C: K74

...

Post by nrford100
The question is -- With all my "aces and spaces" and only 29-31 actual
HCP, should I have Gerber-ed my way to 6NT?

Why be so unilateral? 6D got most of the MPs, and you should be able
to get there when appropriate by bidding your singleton after the
transfer (which is what makes sense with a hand like this and
transfers). I don't think you want to be there when pard has a small
doubleton, which is what you are buying with Gerber.