Some odd (and annoying) hands from yesterday

[Adam Lea]

Another evening where it felt like a Herculean effort to get even an
average score on a hand, a few oddities, crazy deals and potential
instructive hands came up.

5 card majors, 15-17NT

North South
9763 AQT8
9876 AK3
QT2 9865
T4 Q9

N E S W
P P 1NT P
P 2C ?

I would have really liked to make a takeout double with the South hand
here, but haven't discussed this with partner, so passed. My LHO
responded 2D which was passed out. 2D makes on the nose for -90, which
only one other pair found (LHO had bid 2D on K4 QT54 AKJ7 653), and was
a good score. My question is, what is the recommended use of a double in
a competitive auction after my partner or I have opened 1NT? I can see
merits in penalty or takeout but am not sure what is generally seen as best.


North South
J982 -
KJ2 A976
A942 KQ83
A9 QT652

This was a bidding cock-up. Game all.

N E S W
P
1D P 1H 1S
2H P 3S P
3NT P 4D P
5C P 6H AP

Not pretty. Hearts 4-2 and being forced in spades at trick 1 gave me no
chance. In the bidding I visualised my partner holding 5-4 shape with
the club ace, unfortunately she had the worst hand possible, a weak NT
with 3 card support. I can only assume I was overly optimistic and
should have accounted for the possibility of this type of hand given the
intervention. She wasn't sure what my 3S and 4D meant (the first was
supposed to be a splinter, the second showing trying to reveal the
double fit). A big fat zero.


Another competitive hand I got wrong. We were sat EW this time. No-one vuln:

KQ
J63
KT74
KT98
43 AJT72
AKT972 Q5
63 J8
A74 QJ63
9865
84
AQ952
52

N E S W
1S P 2H
X P 3D 3H
4D ?

It did flash through my mind to bid 4H, but my hand is such a garbage
minimum opener, I decided to pass. Unfortunately this was a near bottom,
all but one of the room is playing in 3H making or 4H-1 for a better
score. Was this bad luck or was I too passive?

To finish, two hands I picked up with extreme distribution. I have never
picked up two 7-5-1 shape hands in one session before, and probably
won't for the rest of my bridge life.

N/S vuln

A9652
J3
8
AJT85
K843 QJ7
Q96 T72
J53 Q6
KQ2 97643
T
AK854
AKT9742
-

N E S W
1C
1S 2C 2D P
2S P 3H P
3NT P 4D AP

I don't need much for 6D, and only one loser covered for 5D, so I
thought I'd make forcing bids to see if partner could voluntary support
either red suit or cue bid, then I'll look for or bid slam, otherwise
5D. Unfortunately whilst I thought bidding a new suit at the three level
and pulling a 3NT bid to 4 of my minor was forcing to game, my partner
didn't think so, thus we were the only pair in a part score, another
near bottom. Maybe I should just forget about slam and bid 5D earlier in
the auction.

Game EW:
9
5
AQJT32
A9743
A KQJ7654
AKQ2 JT763
K854 T
QJT6 -
T832
984
96
K852

What do you do with the East hand? My thoughts were it was a decision to
opening some number of spades or passing then coming in later. I decided
to open 4S as if I pass then is it really going to be any easier to show
my hand when three other people have got stuck in?

N E S W
4S P 4NT
5D 5S AP

Partner and I have not agreed DOPI/ROPI so I made a bid to try and show
a hand which was better than minimum, and if she took 4S as showing two
key cards plus the SQ then that is not a million miles from what I hold.
She decided to pass as she was concerned that we had two diamond losers
on the lead of a diamond through her king if I have two small diamonds.
I'm not sure this is a very likely situation, given North overcalled 5D
and she holds Kxxx, but anyway, she cannot possibly imagine I have such
a shapely hand with only one minor loser. We missed 6H or 6S, because my
4S opening resulted in me pre-empting my partner and losing the heart
fit. Three pairs found the slam, at least one East did pass which allows
West to open 1H playing Acol and then it is much easier. One NS pair was
in 7DX-6 which is a good sacrifice against the slam, and would have been
a good score if more pairs had bid it.

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by Adam Lea
Another evening where it felt like a Herculean effort to get even an
average score on a hand, a few oddities, crazy deals and potential
instructive hands came up.
5 card majors, 15-17NT
North South
9763 AQT8
9876 AK3
QT2 9865
T4 Q9
N E S W
P P 1NT P
P 2C ?
I would have really liked to make a takeout double with the South hand
here, but haven't discussed this with partner, so passed. My LHO
responded 2D which was passed out. 2D makes on the nose for -90, which
only one other pair found (LHO had bid 2D on K4 QT54 AKJ7 653), and was
a good score. My question is, what is the recommended use of a double in
a competitive auction after my partner or I have opened 1NT? I can see
merits in penalty or takeout but am not sure what is generally seen as best.

I do not believe a hand can open 1N and have a penalty double of
anything after partner passes. Even if they bid your 5 card suit (if
you have one) you should pass since a penalty double just warns them and
in most cases they run to a better spot. Also if you pass with 4/5
trumps partner has a T/O dble whenever he has any points so you can
still get in the auction if it is sensible.

[Fred.]

Post by Lorne Anderson

Post by Adam Lea
Another evening where it felt like a Herculean effort to get even an
average score on a hand, a few oddities, crazy deals and potential
instructive hands came up.
5 card majors, 15-17NT
North South
9763 AQT8
9876 AK3
QT2 9865
T4 Q9
N E S W
P P 1NT P
P 2C ?
I would have really liked to make a takeout double with the South hand
here, but haven't discussed this with partner, so passed. My LHO
responded 2D which was passed out. 2D makes on the nose for -90, which
only one other pair found (LHO had bid 2D on K4 QT54 AKJ7 653), and was
a good score. My question is, what is the recommended use of a double in
a competitive auction after my partner or I have opened 1NT? I can see
merits in penalty or takeout but am not sure what is generally seen as best.

I do not believe a hand can open 1N and have a penalty double of
anything after partner passes. Even if they bid your 5 card suit (if
you have one) you should pass since a penalty double just warns them and
in most cases they run to a better spot. Also if you pass with 4/5
trumps partner has a T/O dble whenever he has any points so you can
still get in the auction if it is sensible.

In KS Updated Edgar Kaplan showed

1N (2H) pass (pass)
X as takeout, but


1NT (pass) pass (2H)
X as business.

I think the theory was that with less than
5 or 6 HCP responder would pull, even to a
4-card suit if need be, so opener could
risk a double with 13-14 HCP and s 4-card
trump stack.

I'm not necessarily advocating this, but
the understanding could make some sense.
BTW, I think responder's pass needs an alert
under these conditions.

Fred.

[Will in New Haven]

Post by Fred.

Post by Lorne Anderson

Post by Adam Lea
Another evening where it felt like a Herculean effort to get even an
average score on a hand, a few oddities, crazy deals and potential
instructive hands came up.
5 card majors, 15-17NT
North South
9763 AQT8
9876 AK3
QT2 9865
T4 Q9
N E S W
P P 1NT P
P 2C ?
I would have really liked to make a takeout double with the South hand
here, but haven't discussed this with partner, so passed. My LHO
responded 2D which was passed out. 2D makes on the nose for -90, which
only one other pair found (LHO had bid 2D on K4 QT54 AKJ7 653), and was
a good score. My question is, what is the recommended use of a double in
a competitive auction after my partner or I have opened 1NT? I can see
merits in penalty or takeout but am not sure what is generally seen as best.

I do not believe a hand can open 1N and have a penalty double of
anything after partner passes. Even if they bid your 5 card suit (if
you have one) you should pass since a penalty double just warns them and
in most cases they run to a better spot. Also if you pass with 4/5
trumps partner has a T/O dble whenever he has any points so you can
still get in the auction if it is sensible.

In KS Updated Edgar Kaplan showed
1N (2H) pass (pass)
X as takeout, but
1NT (pass) pass (2H)
X as business.
I think the theory was that with less than
5 or 6 HCP responder would pull, even to a
4-card suit if need be, so opener could
risk a double with 13-14 HCP and s 4-card
trump stack.
I'm not necessarily advocating this, but
the understanding could make some sense.
BTW, I think responder's pass needs an alert
under these conditions.

The pass, if it promises values, clearly requires an alert. Oddly, some players claim that the pass _must_ promise values and seem to resent it when I tell them that, with us, it does not.

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by Adam Lea
Another evening where it felt like a Herculean effort to get even an
average score on a hand, a few oddities, crazy deals and potential
instructive hands came up.
North South
J982 -
KJ2 A976
A942 KQ83
A9 QT652
This was a bidding cock-up. Game all.
N E S W
P
1D P 1H 1S
2H P 3S P
3NT P 4D P
5C P 6H AP
Not pretty. Hearts 4-2 and being forced in spades at trick 1 gave me no
chance. In the bidding I visualised my partner holding 5-4 shape with
the club ace, unfortunately she had the worst hand possible, a weak NT
with 3 card support. I can only assume I was overly optimistic and
should have accounted for the possibility of this type of hand given the
intervention. She wasn't sure what my 3S and 4D meant (the first was
supposed to be a splinter, the second showing trying to reveal the
double fit). A big fat zero.

Do not agree with 3S. I would bid 3C as a game try to get more info
from partner. If they sign off in 3H it is probably right to forget a
slam, and if they bid 3N you know they have only 3 card support so in
most cases you should get to the right game and also be able to invite a
slam if partner shows 4 trumps and a good hand.

[Sandy Barnes]

Post by Lorne Anderson

Post by Adam Lea
Another evening where it felt like a Herculean effort to get even an
average score on a hand, a few oddities, crazy deals and potential
instructive hands came up.
North South
J982 -
KJ2 A976
A942 KQ83
A9 QT652
This was a bidding cock-up. Game all.
N E S W
P
1D P 1H 1S
2H P 3S P
3NT P 4D P
5C P 6H AP
Not pretty. Hearts 4-2 and being forced in spades at trick 1 gave me no
chance. In the bidding I visualised my partner holding 5-4 shape with
the club ace, unfortunately she had the worst hand possible, a weak NT
with 3 card support. I can only assume I was overly optimistic and
should have accounted for the possibility of this type of hand given the
intervention. She wasn't sure what my 3S and 4D meant (the first was
supposed to be a splinter, the second showing trying to reveal the
double fit). A big fat zero.

Do not agree with 3S. I would bid 3C as a game try to get more info
from partner. If they sign off in 3H it is probably right to forget a
slam, and if they bid 3N you know they have only 3 card support so in
most cases you should get to the right game and also be able to invite a
slam if partner shows 4 trumps and a good hand.

I play an interesting version of Inverted Minor Raises where a new suit rebid by responder shows a longer suit. This starts out with 1D - 2D; 2S (if there is no bid over 2D) - 3C; 4 hearts are now no longer available in opener's hand. The later 3NT gets removed to 5D. Finding 6D will have a play.

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by Adam Lea
Another evening where it felt like a Herculean effort to get even an
average score on a hand, a few oddities, crazy deals and potential
instructive hands came up.
N/S vuln
A9652
J3
8
AJT85
K843 QJ7
Q96 T72
J53 Q6
KQ2 97643
T
AK854
AKT9742
-
N E S W
1C
1S 2C 2D P
2S P 3H P
3NT P 4D AP
I don't need much for 6D, and only one loser covered for 5D, so I
thought I'd make forcing bids to see if partner could voluntary support
either red suit or cue bid, then I'll look for or bid slam, otherwise
5D. Unfortunately whilst I thought bidding a new suit at the three level
and pulling a 3NT bid to 4 of my minor was forcing to game, my partner
didn't think so, thus we were the only pair in a part score, another
near bottom. Maybe I should just forget about slam and bid 5D earlier in
the auction.

4D is forcing. You can't have a hand good enough to bid 3H that wants
to remove 3N and stop out of game.

However since partner bid 2S (not 2H) you must have 5 hearts and hence
6+ diamonds and partner should know that when they bid 3N. Not sure you
should bid on when it is very likely they are 2-1 in the reds.

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by Adam Lea
Another evening where it felt like a Herculean effort to get even an
average score on a hand, a few oddities, crazy deals and potential
instructive hands came up.
9
5
AQJT32
A9743
A KQJ7654
AKQ2 JT763
K854 T
QJT6 -
T832
984
96
K852
What do you do with the East hand? My thoughts were it was a decision to
opening some number of spades or passing then coming in later. I decided
to open 4S as if I pass then is it really going to be any easier to show
my hand when three other people have got stuck in?
N E S W
4S P 4NT
5D 5S AP

I would pass 4S with W. If N now bids 5D and you have the nerve to try
5H the oppo will be very upset !

I agree with 4S however, even though we miss a slam here unless the oppo
help us out.

[jogs]

Post by Adam Lea
Another evening where it felt like a Herculean effort to get even an
average score on a hand, a few oddities, crazy deals and potential
instructive hands came up.
5 card majors, 15-17NT
North South
9763 AQT8
9876 AK3
QT2 9865
T4 Q9
N E S W
P P 1NT P
P 2C ?
I would have really liked to make a takeout double with the South hand
here, but haven't discussed this with partner, so passed. My LHO
responded 2D which was passed out. 2D makes on the nose for -90, which
only one other pair found (LHO had bid 2D on K4 QT54 AKJ7 653), and was
a good score. My question is, what is the recommended use of a double in
a competitive auction after my partner or I have opened 1NT? I can see
merits in penalty or takeout but am not sure what is generally seen as best.

They are playing 2D on a 4-2 fit. I'm pretty sure
you should beat this contract. HA, HK, SA, S8.
They should lose control of the hand and not make
8 tricks in diamonds.

[Adam Lea]

Post by jogs

Post by Adam Lea
Another evening where it felt like a Herculean effort to get even an
average score on a hand, a few oddities, crazy deals and potential
instructive hands came up.
5 card majors, 15-17NT
North South
9763 AQT8
9876 AK3
QT2 9865
T4 Q9
N E S W
P P 1NT P
P 2C ?
I would have really liked to make a takeout double with the South hand
here, but haven't discussed this with partner, so passed. My LHO
responded 2D which was passed out. 2D makes on the nose for -90, which
only one other pair found (LHO had bid 2D on K4 QT54 AKJ7 653), and was
a good score. My question is, what is the recommended use of a double in
a competitive auction after my partner or I have opened 1NT? I can see
merits in penalty or takeout but am not sure what is generally seen as best.

They are playing 2D on a 4-2 fit. I'm pretty sure
you should beat this contract. HA, HK, SA, S8.
They should lose control of the hand and not make
8 tricks in diamonds.

I can't remember the play of the hand, but Deep Finesse states seven
tricks are the limit, so yes, we should have taken it off.

[Travis Crump]

Post by Adam Lea
North South
J982 -
KJ2 A976
A942 KQ83
A9 QT652
This was a bidding cock-up. Game all.
N E S W
P
1D P 1H 1S
2H P 3S P
3NT P 4D P
5C P 6H AP
Not pretty. Hearts 4-2 and being forced in spades at trick 1 gave me no
chance. In the bidding I visualised my partner holding 5-4 shape with
the club ace, unfortunately she had the worst hand possible, a weak NT
with 3 card support. I can only assume I was overly optimistic and
should have accounted for the possibility of this type of hand given the
intervention. She wasn't sure what my 3S and 4D meant (the first was
supposed to be a splinter, the second showing trying to reveal the
double fit). A big fat zero.

Do you play support doubles? Even if not, I wouldn't be in a rush to
raise and would just pass 1S. If you frequently raise on 3, East should
at least offer a choice of 6D/H though all east's bidding is a pretty
big overbid starting with 3S. 6D at least isn't as completely hopeless
of a contract.

Post by Adam Lea
KQ
J63
KT74
KT98
43 AJT72
AKT972 Q5
63 J8
A74 QJ63
9865
84
AQ952
52
N E S W
1S P 2H
X P 3D 3H
4D ?
It did flash through my mind to bid 4H, but my hand is such a garbage
minimum opener, I decided to pass. Unfortunately this was a near bottom,
all but one of the room is playing in 3H making or 4H-1 for a better
score. Was this bad luck or was I too passive?

I wouldn't have opened the East hand though I guess if West passed out
4D undoubled he must have been expecting a very light opening. Then the
bidding might time out differently, North unable to double a 1H opening
with only a doubleton spade, and may or may not risk it a level higher
on his next chance[and even if he does South would be reticent to come
in at the 4 level] allowing you to buy it in 3H uncontested, but that is
a little dumb luck[imagine just switching the NS hands]. It would take
some doing to let 4D make so I'm not sure how 4H-1 would score better.

[Adam Lea]

Post by Travis Crump

Post by Adam Lea
North South
J982 -
KJ2 A976
A942 KQ83
A9 QT652
This was a bidding cock-up. Game all.
N E S W
P
1D P 1H 1S
2H P 3S P
3NT P 4D P
5C P 6H AP
Not pretty. Hearts 4-2 and being forced in spades at trick 1 gave me no
chance. In the bidding I visualised my partner holding 5-4 shape with
the club ace, unfortunately she had the worst hand possible, a weak NT
with 3 card support. I can only assume I was overly optimistic and
should have accounted for the possibility of this type of hand given the
intervention. She wasn't sure what my 3S and 4D meant (the first was
supposed to be a splinter, the second showing trying to reveal the
double fit). A big fat zero.

Do you play support doubles? Even if not, I wouldn't be in a rush to
raise and would just pass 1S. If you frequently raise on 3, East should
at least offer a choice of 6D/H though all east's bidding is a pretty
big overbid starting with 3S. 6D at least isn't as completely hopeless
of a contract.

No support doubles.

I didn't think my bidding was that over the top. A five loser hand,
double fit for partner and a void in the opponents suit, I didn't think
it was unreasonable to investigate slam. It just happens my partner had
just about the worst hand possible for her bidding (minimum 8 loser weak
NT).

Post by Travis Crump

Post by Adam Lea
KQ
J63
KT74
KT98
43 AJT72
AKT972 Q5
63 J8
A74 QJ63
9865
84
AQ952
52
N E S W
1S P 2H
X P 3D 3H
4D ?
It did flash through my mind to bid 4H, but my hand is such a garbage
minimum opener, I decided to pass. Unfortunately this was a near bottom,
all but one of the room is playing in 3H making or 4H-1 for a better
score. Was this bad luck or was I too passive?

I wouldn't have opened the East hand though I guess if West passed out
4D undoubled he must have been expecting a very light opening. Then the
bidding might time out differently, North unable to double a 1H opening
with only a doubleton spade, and may or may not risk it a level higher
on his next chance[and even if he does South would be reticent to come
in at the 4 level] allowing you to buy it in 3H uncontested, but that is
a little dumb luck[imagine just switching the NS hands]. It would take
some doing to let 4D make so I'm not sure how 4H-1 would score better.

I agree it was a very marginal opening by me. We took 4D two off
(although Deep Finesse says nine tricks are possible). The bad score was
because out of four pairs that bid 4H, three made it, and five other
pairs made 3H, a couple with an overtrick. To hold hearts to nine tricks
requires NS to cash their diamonds and then switch to a spade, before
West is able to set up a club for a spade discard, some won't find the
spade switch in time. We were the only ones defending 4D, so this bottom
was not really our fault, unless you count not finding a penalty double
as a mistake.

[Travis Crump]

Post by Adam Lea

Post by Travis Crump

Post by Adam Lea
KQ
J63
KT74
KT98
43 AJT72
AKT972 Q5
63 J8
A74 QJ63
9865
84
AQ952
52
N E S W
1S P 2H
X P 3D 3H
4D ?
It did flash through my mind to bid 4H, but my hand is such a garbage
minimum opener, I decided to pass. Unfortunately this was a near bottom,
all but one of the room is playing in 3H making or 4H-1 for a better
score. Was this bad luck or was I too passive?

I wouldn't have opened the East hand though I guess if West passed out
4D undoubled he must have been expecting a very light opening. Then the
bidding might time out differently, North unable to double a 1H opening
with only a doubleton spade, and may or may not risk it a level higher
on his next chance[and even if he does South would be reticent to come
in at the 4 level] allowing you to buy it in 3H uncontested, but that is
a little dumb luck[imagine just switching the NS hands]. It would take
some doing to let 4D make so I'm not sure how 4H-1 would score better.

I agree it was a very marginal opening by me. We took 4D two off
(although Deep Finesse says nine tricks are possible). The bad score was
because out of four pairs that bid 4H, three made it, and five other
pairs made 3H, a couple with an overtrick. To hold hearts to nine tricks
requires NS to cash their diamonds and then switch to a spade, before
West is able to set up a club for a spade discard, some won't find the
spade switch in time. We were the only ones defending 4D, so this bottom
was not really our fault, unless you count not finding a penalty double
as a mistake.

I would consider not doubling a mistake. West has 3 quick tricks in
suits partner didn't bid or support and partner opened. It shouldn't
matter though. You've piqued my interest. You refer to Deep Finesse as
if taking nine tricks is more complicated than drawing trump and leading
a club towards the K. Did they not take the club finesse? Or did they
somehow manage to get a club overruffed with the 6? Clubs seems the only
suit it is vaguely possible to get overruffed in.

[Adam Lea]

Post by Travis Crump

Post by Adam Lea

Post by Travis Crump

Post by Adam Lea
KQ
J63
KT74
KT98
43 AJT72
AKT972 Q5
63 J8
A74 QJ63
9865
84
AQ952
52
N E S W
1S P 2H
X P 3D 3H
4D ?
It did flash through my mind to bid 4H, but my hand is such a garbage
minimum opener, I decided to pass. Unfortunately this was a near bottom,
all but one of the room is playing in 3H making or 4H-1 for a better
score. Was this bad luck or was I too passive?

I wouldn't have opened the East hand though I guess if West passed out
4D undoubled he must have been expecting a very light opening. Then the
bidding might time out differently, North unable to double a 1H opening
with only a doubleton spade, and may or may not risk it a level higher
on his next chance[and even if he does South would be reticent to come
in at the 4 level] allowing you to buy it in 3H uncontested, but that is
a little dumb luck[imagine just switching the NS hands]. It would take
some doing to let 4D make so I'm not sure how 4H-1 would score better.

I agree it was a very marginal opening by me. We took 4D two off
(although Deep Finesse says nine tricks are possible). The bad score was
because out of four pairs that bid 4H, three made it, and five other
pairs made 3H, a couple with an overtrick. To hold hearts to nine tricks
requires NS to cash their diamonds and then switch to a spade, before
West is able to set up a club for a spade discard, some won't find the
spade switch in time. We were the only ones defending 4D, so this bottom
was not really our fault, unless you count not finding a penalty double
as a mistake.

I would consider not doubling a mistake. West has 3 quick tricks in
suits partner didn't bid or support and partner opened. It shouldn't
matter though. You've piqued my interest. You refer to Deep Finesse as
if taking nine tricks is more complicated than drawing trump and leading
a club towards the K. Did they not take the club finesse? Or did they
somehow manage to get a club overruffed with the 6? Clubs seems the only
suit it is vaguely possible to get overruffed in.

My reference to Deep Finesse was not intended to convey my confusion as
to how nine tricks are available, but more because I hadn't looked at
the trick totals from both sides. Looking at it now it does appear on
normal play EW can only come to four tricks in defense. I can't recall
the play so I don't know where South dropped a trick. Even with careless
play there doesn't appear to be a way for South to end up stuck in dummy
and forced to lead away from the club king.