Strong declarer, weak dummy: finding the right suit

[ais523]

This is a hand that came up recently:

East:

S A
H AQ654
D AK5
C AQ86

West:

S T76
H 92
D T4
C KJT973

In the actual hand, North pre-empted, but I'm interested in what would
happen without interference, assuming East as the dealer. This sort of
hand seems to be something of a challenge for natural bidding systems,
as West is too weak to really show anything about their hand, and East
is naturally going to prefer hearts.

In Acol, I think this hand probably starts like this:

2C, 2D (artificial game force; bad hand)
2H, 3C (both natural)
4C, 4H (club support; heart tolerance)

but East doesn't have much of a reason to think there's a slam on, so
will likely just pass; hearts score better than clubs. (Note that I'm
far from sure that the third round of bidding here is correct; perhaps
West should bid 5C to show six clubs, but at least at matchpoints,
East has to pass this without knowing that West has the King of Clubs,
and West has shown no points at all so far so there's no reason to
expect a particular honour in that hand.)

Systems where a game force allows a negative response to show a suit
have no problem here. For example, in Polish Club, where the game force
is split over two bids, and thus the responder can show a negative and a
suit separately:

1C, 1D (balanced/clubs/strong; bad hand or no suit to show)
2D, 3C (artificial game force; a club suit worth showing)
3H, 4C (best suit hearts; six clubs)
6C (West must surely have CK, so East can count 12 tricks)

A system I've been working on can handle this in a similar way:

1C, 2C (balanced or strong; <8 HCP but 6 clubs)
5C, 6C (I can count 11 tricks; I have a 12th trick)

However, this all seems to rely on the responder having some method of
showing a long suit, which is rare when showing a bad hand normally has
a higher priority. (This hand is unusual because East needs to be the
hand with shorter trumps to make use of the singleton Spade, so East
badly needs to find a long suit in West's hand to have any hope of
making a slam.)

So I'm interested in how more natural systems deal with this sort of
hand and find the right suit to be in.

(Note that the hands here could actually have made a grand slam but only
because the HK was onside, something that E/W have no way of knowing. So
a perfect bidding system should end up in a small slam in clubs.)

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by ais523
S A
H AQ654
D AK5
C AQ86
S T76
H 92
D T4
C KJT973

I wish that people would drop the four superfluous letters
(SHDC). They are merely confusing.

Post by ais523
In the actual hand, North pre-empted, but I'm interested in what would
happen without interference, assuming East as the dealer. This sort of
hand seems to be something of a challenge for natural bidding systems,
as West is too weak to really show anything about their hand,

I'm no expert, but I disagree with that statement. I count 4+2
points on Wests hand plus a long suit, so I would give a positive
answer if available.

[ais523]

[snip]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by ais523
S T76
H 92
D T4
C KJT973

[snip]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by ais523
In the actual hand, North pre-empted, but I'm interested in what would
happen without interference, assuming East as the dealer. This sort of
hand seems to be something of a challenge for natural bidding systems,
as West is too weak to really show anything about their hand,

I'm no expert, but I disagree with that statement. I count 4+2
points on Wests hand plus a long suit, so I would give a positive
answer if available.

Are you trying to count points for both length and shortness in West's
hand? Most people would only count one or the other, at least until it
became clear that there was a fit available.

For what it's worth, most people play positive answers as showing a much
stronger hand than this (something like 3 controls is a common
requirement in Acol), although I can see the logic behind putting the
threshold for one rather lower. The problem is that a positive answer
over 2C or 2D has some tendency to pre-empt your patner, so players like
to avoid them unless they have something really important to show.

[rhm]

Post by ais523
S A
H AQ654
D AK5
C AQ86
S T76
H 92
D T4
C KJT973
In the actual hand, North pre-empted, but I'm interested in what would
happen without interference, assuming East as the dealer. This sort of
hand seems to be something of a challenge for natural bidding systems,
as West is too weak to really show anything about their hand, and East
is naturally going to prefer hearts.
2C, 2D (artificial game force; bad hand)
2H, 3C (both natural)
4C, 4H (club support; heart tolerance)
but East doesn't have much of a reason to think there's a slam on, so
will likely just pass; hearts score better than clubs. (Note that I'm
far from sure that the third round of bidding here is correct; perhaps
West should bid 5C to show six clubs, but at least at matchpoints,
East has to pass this without knowing that West has the King of Clubs,
and West has shown no points at all so far so there's no reason to
expect a particular honour in that hand.)
Systems where a game force allows a negative response to show a suit
have no problem here. For example, in Polish Club, where the game force
is split over two bids, and thus the responder can show a negative and a
1C, 1D (balanced/clubs/strong; bad hand or no suit to show)
2D, 3C (artificial game force; a club suit worth showing)
3H, 4C (best suit hearts; six clubs)
6C (West must surely have CK, so East can count 12 tricks)
1C, 2C (balanced or strong; <8 HCP but 6 clubs)
5C, 6C (I can count 11 tricks; I have a 12th trick)
However, this all seems to rely on the responder having some method of
showing a long suit, which is rare when showing a bad hand normally has
a higher priority. (This hand is unusual because East needs to be the
hand with shorter trumps to make use of the singleton Spade, so East
badly needs to find a long suit in West's hand to have any hope of
making a slam.)
So I'm interested in how more natural systems deal with this sort of
hand and find the right suit to be in.
(Note that the hands here could actually have made a grand slam but only
because the HK was onside, something that E/W have no way of knowing. So
a perfect bidding system should end up in a small slam in clubs.)
--
ais523

I agree with your general sentiment but on another deal.
I am fan of Minorwood and the bidding would start as suggested by you
But 4C would agree clubs and be asking for keycards, where clubs and hearts are both key suits.
West would show one keycard and East would conclude to 6C.
If by any chance West had the king of hearts and clubs he would show 2 keycards in this sequence.

[[e-mail]]

Post by ais523
S A
H AQ654
D AK5
C AQ86
S T76
H 92
D T4
C KJT973
In the actual hand, North pre-empted, but I'm interested in what would
happen without interference, assuming East as the dealer. This sort of
hand seems to be something of a challenge for natural bidding systems,
as West is too weak to really show anything about their hand, and East
is naturally going to prefer hearts.
2C, 2D (artificial game force; bad hand)
2H, 3C (both natural)
4C, 4H (club support; heart tolerance)
but East doesn't have much of a reason to think there's a slam on, so
will likely just pass; hearts score better than clubs. (Note that I'm
far from sure that the third round of bidding here is correct; perhaps
West should bid 5C to show six clubs, but at least at matchpoints,
East has to pass this without knowing that West has the King of Clubs,
and West has shown no points at all so far so there's no reason to
expect a particular honour in that hand.)
Systems where a game force allows a negative response to show a suit
have no problem here. For example, in Polish Club, where the game force
is split over two bids, and thus the responder can show a negative and a
1C, 1D (balanced/clubs/strong; bad hand or no suit to show)
2D, 3C (artificial game force; a club suit worth showing)
3H, 4C (best suit hearts; six clubs)
6C (West must surely have CK, so East can count 12 tricks)
1C, 2C (balanced or strong; <8 HCP but 6 clubs)
5C, 6C (I can count 11 tricks; I have a 12th trick)
However, this all seems to rely on the responder having some method of
showing a long suit, which is rare when showing a bad hand normally has
a higher priority. (This hand is unusual because East needs to be the
hand with shorter trumps to make use of the singleton Spade, so East
badly needs to find a long suit in West's hand to have any hope of
making a slam.)
So I'm interested in how more natural systems deal with this sort of
hand and find the right suit to be in.
(Note that the hands here could actually have made a grand slam but only
because the HK was onside, something that E/W have no way of knowing. So
a perfect bidding system should end up in a small slam in clubs.)
--
ais523

The problem is opener's 2H rebid. If it must cover both 1-suiters, 2-suiters, 3-suiters, and semi-3-suiters, responder is in trouble. (It would be even worse if responder had Jxx in hearts.)

Carl

[ais523]

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by ais523
So I'm interested in how more natural systems deal with this sort of

The problem is opener's 2H rebid. If it must cover both 1-suiters,
2-suiters, 3-suiters, and semi-3-suiters, responder is in trouble.
(It would be even worse if responder had Jxx in hearts.)

As soon as I saw this, I realised you were right. Presumably a good
partial fix for a natural system that you want to keep simple is to use
a 3H rebid after 2C to show the heart single-suiters, so that a 2H
rebid guarantees a second suit (although then it's unclear what to do
with a 5332 hand). If you're willing to go a bit more complex, you could
add a conventional bid (probably 2S or 2NT) so that the responder can
ask for the second suit (in much the same style as in 2/1).

[rhm]

Post by ais523

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by ais523
So I'm interested in how more natural systems deal with this sort of

The problem is opener's 2H rebid. If it must cover both 1-suiters,
2-suiters, 3-suiters, and semi-3-suiters, responder is in trouble.
(It would be even worse if responder had Jxx in hearts.)

As soon as I saw this, I realised you were right. Presumably a good
partial fix for a natural system that you want to keep simple is to use
a 3H rebid after 2C to show the heart single-suiters, so that a 2H
rebid guarantees a second suit (although then it's unclear what to do
with a 5332 hand). If you're willing to go a bit more complex, you could
add a conventional bid (probably 2S or 2NT) so that the responder can
ask for the second suit (in much the same style as in 2/1).
--
ais523

Frankly I do not see the problem.
In any good bidding system cheap bids encompass more hands than bids using lots of bidding space.
Whether 2H is overloaded can be argued, but I would refuse to play a system where a 2C opener has to jump to show a single suiter in hearts.
He can simply bid 2H followed by 3H.
This opener did not do. Instead he raised clubs beyond 3NT.
Majors suit fits are more important than minor suit fits, but the main reason is trick requirement for game.
At the slam level there is little difference between majors and minors.
Is showing secondary hearts support after clubs have been raised beyond 3NT really now the most important issue?
I find bidding 4H to show xx in hearts when holding KJTxxx in clubs laughable.
I would bet that in most cases where game in hearts makes (even when holding Jxx in hearts) 6C is a better alternative.
The important problem over 4C is not whether we should play hearts.
It is how high to go in clubs.

[[e-mail]]

Post by rhm

Post by ais523

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by ais523
So I'm interested in how more natural systems deal with this sort of

The problem is opener's 2H rebid. If it must cover both 1-suiters,
2-suiters, 3-suiters, and semi-3-suiters, responder is in trouble.
(It would be even worse if responder had Jxx in hearts.)

As soon as I saw this, I realised you were right. Presumably a good
partial fix for a natural system that you want to keep simple is to use
a 3H rebid after 2C to show the heart single-suiters, so that a 2H
rebid guarantees a second suit (although then it's unclear what to do
with a 5332 hand). If you're willing to go a bit more complex, you could
add a conventional bid (probably 2S or 2NT) so that the responder can
ask for the second suit (in much the same style as in 2/1).
--
ais523

Frankly I do not see the problem.
In any good bidding system cheap bids encompass more hands than bids using lots of bidding space.
Whether 2H is overloaded can be argued, but I would refuse to play a system where a 2C opener has to jump to show a single suiter in hearts.
He can simply bid 2H followed by 3H.
This opener did not do. Instead he raised clubs beyond 3NT.
Majors suit fits are more important than minor suit fits, but the main reason is trick requirement for game.
At the slam level there is little difference between majors and minors.
Is showing secondary hearts support after clubs have been raised beyond 3NT really now the most important issue?
I find bidding 4H to show xx in hearts when holding KJTxxx in clubs laughable.
I would bet that in most cases where game in hearts makes (even when holding Jxx in hearts) 6C is a better alternative.
The important problem over 4C is not whether we should play hearts.
It is how high to go in clubs.

Exactly why is 2C - 2D ; 3H abominable and 2C - 2D ; 2H - YX ; 3H wonderful?

Carl

[rhm]

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by rhm

Post by ais523

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by ais523
So I'm interested in how more natural systems deal with this sort of

The problem is opener's 2H rebid. If it must cover both 1-suiters,
2-suiters, 3-suiters, and semi-3-suiters, responder is in trouble.
(It would be even worse if responder had Jxx in hearts.)

As soon as I saw this, I realised you were right. Presumably a good
partial fix for a natural system that you want to keep simple is to use
a 3H rebid after 2C to show the heart single-suiters, so that a 2H
rebid guarantees a second suit (although then it's unclear what to do
with a 5332 hand). If you're willing to go a bit more complex, you could
add a conventional bid (probably 2S or 2NT) so that the responder can
ask for the second suit (in much the same style as in 2/1).
--
ais523

Frankly I do not see the problem.
In any good bidding system cheap bids encompass more hands than bids using lots of bidding space.
Whether 2H is overloaded can be argued, but I would refuse to play a system where a 2C opener has to jump to show a single suiter in hearts.
He can simply bid 2H followed by 3H.
This opener did not do. Instead he raised clubs beyond 3NT.
Majors suit fits are more important than minor suit fits, but the main reason is trick requirement for game.
At the slam level there is little difference between majors and minors.
Is showing secondary hearts support after clubs have been raised beyond 3NT really now the most important issue?
I find bidding 4H to show xx in hearts when holding KJTxxx in clubs laughable.
I would bet that in most cases where game in hearts makes (even when holding Jxx in hearts) 6C is a better alternative.
The important problem over 4C is not whether we should play hearts.
It is how high to go in clubs.

Exactly why is 2C - 2D ; 3H abominable and 2C - 2D ; 2H - YX ; 3H wonderful?
Carl

Very simple because partner gets a chance to pass information between 2H and 3H.
This type of information is usually vital.
Even if you have a one-suiter, you may be interested whether your partner is balanced or has an own suit which may or may act as a trump suit or side suit.
Also a jump by a 2C opener can have a specific meaning, e.g setting the trump suit (solid suit or an extreme long suit) and requesting a control bid as some play.

[[e-mail]]

Post by rhm

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by rhm

Post by ais523

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by ais523
So I'm interested in how more natural systems deal with this sort of

The problem is opener's 2H rebid. If it must cover both 1-suiters,
2-suiters, 3-suiters, and semi-3-suiters, responder is in trouble.
(It would be even worse if responder had Jxx in hearts.)

As soon as I saw this, I realised you were right. Presumably a good
partial fix for a natural system that you want to keep simple is to use
a 3H rebid after 2C to show the heart single-suiters, so that a 2H
rebid guarantees a second suit (although then it's unclear what to do
with a 5332 hand). If you're willing to go a bit more complex, you could
add a conventional bid (probably 2S or 2NT) so that the responder can
ask for the second suit (in much the same style as in 2/1).
--
ais523

Frankly I do not see the problem.
In any good bidding system cheap bids encompass more hands than bids using lots of bidding space.
Whether 2H is overloaded can be argued, but I would refuse to play a system where a 2C opener has to jump to show a single suiter in hearts.
He can simply bid 2H followed by 3H.
This opener did not do. Instead he raised clubs beyond 3NT.
Majors suit fits are more important than minor suit fits, but the main reason is trick requirement for game.
At the slam level there is little difference between majors and minors.
Is showing secondary hearts support after clubs have been raised beyond 3NT really now the most important issue?
I find bidding 4H to show xx in hearts when holding KJTxxx in clubs laughable.
I would bet that in most cases where game in hearts makes (even when holding Jxx in hearts) 6C is a better alternative.
The important problem over 4C is not whether we should play hearts.
It is how high to go in clubs.

Exactly why is 2C - 2D ; 3H abominable and 2C - 2D ; 2H - YX ; 3H wonderful?
Carl

Very simple because partner gets a chance to pass information between 2H and 3H.
This type of information is usually vital.

No it isn't.

The crucial thing a one-suiter needs to know is the slam-suitability of the suppot. Slam-suitable is Ax , Kx , Qxx , J10x , or 4-card. You want control bids in presence of slam suitability.

Post by rhm
Even if you have a one-suiter, you may be interested whether your partner is balanced or has an own suit which may or may act as a trump suit or side suit.
Also a jump by a 2C opener can have a specific meaning, e.g setting the trump suit (solid suit or an extreme long suit) and requesting a control bid as some play.

It *can* hsve that meaning.

[ais523]

Post by rhm
Frankly I do not see the problem.
In any good bidding system cheap bids encompass more hands than bids using lots of bidding space.
Whether 2H is overloaded can be argued, but I would refuse to play a system where a 2C opener has to jump to show a single suiter in hearts.
He can simply bid 2H followed by 3H.

I guess the way to think about it here, is what else could 3H mean? The
only other plausible meaning I can think of is "/minimum/ single-suiter
in hearts" (which is sometimes played by partnerships who have a fairly
light 2C opening as a method of cancelling the game force). Not only
that, but a single-suiter is the hand type that needs the least bidding
space to settle on a contract after showing it.

Presumably 2C, 2D; 2H, 3x; 3H shows a 6-4 hand (when responder has
bypassed the 4-card suit), whereas 2C, 2D; 3H would show a 6331 or 6322
(or more extreme, e.g. 7321).

[[e-mail]]

Post by ais523

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by ais523
So I'm interested in how more natural systems deal with this sort of

The problem is opener's 2H rebid. If it must cover both 1-suiters,
2-suiters, 3-suiters, and semi-3-suiters, responder is in trouble.
(It would be even worse if responder had Jxx in hearts.)

As soon as I saw this, I realised you were right. Presumably a good
partial fix for a natural system that you want to keep simple is to use
a 3H rebid after 2C to show the heart single-suiters, so that a 2H
rebid guarantees a second suit (although then it's unclear what to do
with a 5332 hand). If you're willing to go a bit more complex, you could
add a conventional bid (probably 2S or 2NT) so that the responder can
ask for the second suit (in much the same style as in 2/1).
--
ais523

5332 hands MUST rebid NT. Regardless of anything else.

Not least, because you don't want partner to strain to raise the hearts.

Carl

[ais523]

Post by ***@verizon.net
5332 hands MUST rebid NT. Regardless of anything else.
Not least, because you don't want partner to strain to raise the hearts.

I came to this conclusion independently while offline.

2C, 2D; 2H, 3x; 3NT uses up a lot of bidding space, but it's shown a
game-forcing 5332 in hearts and your partner surely shouldn't need any
more information to place the contract at that point (unless it's one
of those rare hands where the location of the doubleton matters).
Presumably the only real issue here is as to whether 4NT is a try at
6H based on aces, or at 6NT based on HCP. (I think there's the bidding
space to tell these cases apart, but wouldn't want to try unless I had
a lot of experience with the partner in question!)

[Will in New Haven]

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by ais523
S A
H AQ654
D AK5
C AQ86
S T76
H 92
D T4
C KJT973
In the actual hand, North pre-empted, but I'm interested in what would
happen without interference, assuming East as the dealer. This sort of
hand seems to be something of a challenge for natural bidding systems,
as West is too weak to really show anything about their hand, and East
is naturally going to prefer hearts.
2C, 2D (artificial game force; bad hand)
2H, 3C (both natural)
4C, 4H (club support; heart tolerance)
but East doesn't have much of a reason to think there's a slam on, so
will likely just pass; hearts score better than clubs. (Note that I'm
far from sure that the third round of bidding here is correct; perhaps
West should bid 5C to show six clubs, but at least at matchpoints,
East has to pass this without knowing that West has the King of Clubs,
and West has shown no points at all so far so there's no reason to
expect a particular honour in that hand.)
Systems where a game force allows a negative response to show a suit
have no problem here. For example, in Polish Club, where the game force
is split over two bids, and thus the responder can show a negative and a
1C, 1D (balanced/clubs/strong; bad hand or no suit to show)
2D, 3C (artificial game force; a club suit worth showing)
3H, 4C (best suit hearts; six clubs)
6C (West must surely have CK, so East can count 12 tricks)
1C, 2C (balanced or strong; <8 HCP but 6 clubs)
5C, 6C (I can count 11 tricks; I have a 12th trick)
However, this all seems to rely on the responder having some method of
showing a long suit, which is rare when showing a bad hand normally has
a higher priority. (This hand is unusual because East needs to be the
hand with shorter trumps to make use of the singleton Spade, so East
badly needs to find a long suit in West's hand to have any hope of
making a slam.)
So I'm interested in how more natural systems deal with this sort of
hand and find the right suit to be in.
(Note that the hands here could actually have made a grand slam but only
because the HK was onside, something that E/W have no way of knowing. So
a perfect bidding system should end up in a small slam in clubs.)
--
ais523

The problem is opener's 2H rebid. If it must cover both 1-suiters, 2-suiters, 3-suiters, and semi-3-suiters, responder is in trouble. (It would be even worse if responder had Jxx in hearts.)

How could one _ever_ rebid 2H with that hand? Oh, I see, you all assume a 2C opener. I doubt I would win a Challenge the Champs, but I open 1H.

[ais523]

Post by Will in New Haven

Post by ais523
S A
H AQ654
D AK5
C AQ86
S T76
H 92
D T4
C KJT973

How could one _ever_ rebid 2H with that hand? Oh, I see, you all
assume a 2C opener. I doubt I would win a Challenge the Champs, but I
open 1H.

You'd better hope that the opponents overcall, because I can see a large
proportion of Wests passing this. (That said, an overcall is fairly
likely here – and there was a pre-empt on the actual hand – but doesn't
seem guaranteed, especially against conservative opposition. If spades
split 5/4 and the shorter hand has two of the KQJ, it's quite plausible
that your 1H will be passed out.) West's hand is terrible unless East
has clubs (and a 1H opening doesn't particularly imply any holding in
clubs).

[t***@att.net]

According to Why You Lose at Bridge, one of the two worst bidding failures is to underbid weak hands (and the other is to overbid strong ones.) If East has Club support, West's hand is really pretty good; without it, rather poor. So in my natural canapé (which seems to be like most system with this type hand) the bidding should go:

2C (big hand) 2D (poor)
2H ("strong Two" in Hearts 3C (good Clubs, don't like Hearts, but not a second negative)
4C (good Club support) 5C (probably need some artificial slam attempt by weak hand bt don't know onee.)
6C (Could Pass, but exepct 6 Clubs in West hand. Cannot see source of tricks for 7)

[Lorne]

Post by ais523
S A
H AQ654
D AK5
C AQ86
S T76
H 92
D T4
C KJT973
In the actual hand, North pre-empted, but I'm interested in what would
happen without interference, assuming East as the dealer. This sort of
hand seems to be something of a challenge for natural bidding systems,
as West is too weak to really show anything about their hand, and East
is naturally going to prefer hearts.
2C, 2D (artificial game force; bad hand)
2H, 3C (both natural)
4C, 4H (club support; heart tolerance)
but East doesn't have much of a reason to think there's a slam on, so
will likely just pass; hearts score better than clubs. (Note that I'm
far from sure that the third round of bidding here is correct; perhaps
West should bid 5C to show six clubs, but at least at matchpoints,
East has to pass this without knowing that West has the King of Clubs,
and West has shown no points at all so far so there's no reason to
expect a particular honour in that hand.)
Systems where a game force allows a negative response to show a suit
have no problem here. For example, in Polish Club, where the game force
is split over two bids, and thus the responder can show a negative and a
1C, 1D (balanced/clubs/strong; bad hand or no suit to show)
2D, 3C (artificial game force; a club suit worth showing)
3H, 4C (best suit hearts; six clubs)
6C (West must surely have CK, so East can count 12 tricks)
1C, 2C (balanced or strong; <8 HCP but 6 clubs)
5C, 6C (I can count 11 tricks; I have a 12th trick)
However, this all seems to rely on the responder having some method of
showing a long suit, which is rare when showing a bad hand normally has
a higher priority. (This hand is unusual because East needs to be the
hand with shorter trumps to make use of the singleton Spade, so East
badly needs to find a long suit in West's hand to have any hope of
making a slam.)
So I'm interested in how more natural systems deal with this sort of
hand and find the right suit to be in.
(Note that the hands here could actually have made a grand slam but only
because the HK was onside, something that E/W have no way of knowing. So
a perfect bidding system should end up in a small slam in clubs.)

Firstly, many play 2 negative responses to 2C, 2H showing a complete
bust and 2D showing at least one control but possibly nothing else.
Here you would bid 2D showing something but not much so after 3C opener
knows you have a K so will have slam interest.

Secondly I do not see why you want to play in hearts with 2 card support
and a known fit in your 6 card suit. I would just raise clubs and if I
do that having already promised a King opener will probably punt a slam
anyway.

[p***@infi.net]

Post by ais523
S A
H AQ654
D AK5
C AQ86
S T76
H 92
D T4
C KJT973
In the actual hand, North pre-empted, but I'm interested in what would
happen without interference, assuming East as the dealer. This sort of
hand seems to be something of a challenge for natural bidding systems,
as West is too weak to really show anything about their hand, and East
is naturally going to prefer hearts.
2C, 2D (artificial game force; bad hand)
2H, 3C (both natural)
4C, 4H (club support; heart tolerance)
but East doesn't have much of a reason to think there's a slam on, so
will likely just pass; hearts score better than clubs. (Note that I'm
far from sure that the third round of bidding here is correct; perhaps
West should bid 5C to show six clubs, but at least at matchpoints,
East has to pass this without knowing that West has the King of Clubs,
and West has shown no points at all so far so there's no reason to
expect a particular honour in that hand.)

...

...I do not see why you want to play in hearts with 2 card support
and a known fit in your 6 card suit. I would just raise clubs and if I
do that having already promised a King opener will probably punt a slam
anyway.

I agree with Lorne here; after 4C, 5C then 6C looks reasonable. With five clubs responder might try 4H. With only four clubs responder should rebid 2NT, allowing opener to continue describing an unbalanced hand. So I think opener can picture Kxxxxx in clubs.

[f***@googlemail.com]

Post by ais523
S A
H AQ654
D AK5
C AQ86
S T76
H 92
D T4
C KJT973
In the actual hand, North pre-empted, but I'm interested in what would
happen without interference, assuming East as the dealer. This sort of
hand seems to be something of a challenge for natural bidding systems,
as West is too weak to really show anything about their hand, and East
is naturally going to prefer hearts.
2C, 2D (artificial game force; bad hand)
2H, 3C (both natural)
4C, 4H (club support; heart tolerance)
but East doesn't have much of a reason to think there's a slam on, so
will likely just pass; hearts score better than clubs. (Note that I'm
far from sure that the third round of bidding here is correct; perhaps
West should bid 5C to show six clubs, but at least at matchpoints,
East has to pass this without knowing that West has the King of Clubs,
and West has shown no points at all so far so there's no reason to
expect a particular honour in that hand.)
Systems where a game force allows a negative response to show a suit
have no problem here. For example, in Polish Club, where the game force
is split over two bids, and thus the responder can show a negative and a
1C, 1D (balanced/clubs/strong; bad hand or no suit to show)
2D, 3C (artificial game force; a club suit worth showing)
3H, 4C (best suit hearts; six clubs)
6C (West must surely have CK, so East can count 12 tricks)
1C, 2C (balanced or strong; <8 HCP but 6 clubs)
5C, 6C (I can count 11 tricks; I have a 12th trick)
However, this all seems to rely on the responder having some method of
showing a long suit, which is rare when showing a bad hand normally has
a higher priority. (This hand is unusual because East needs to be the
hand with shorter trumps to make use of the singleton Spade, so East
badly needs to find a long suit in West's hand to have any hope of
making a slam.)
So I'm interested in how more natural systems deal with this sort of
hand and find the right suit to be in.
(Note that the hands here could actually have made a grand slam but only
because the HK was onside, something that E/W have no way of knowing. So
a perfect bidding system should end up in a small slam in clubs.)
--
ais523

This is all over-complicating matters

2C - 2D
2H - 3C
4C - 6C

As long as 2C shows a genuinely strong hand, responder just bids what his hand is worth opposite club support (also happy that partner is playing it)

[Co Wiersma]

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by ais523
S A
H AQ654
D AK5
C AQ86
S T76
H 92
D T4
C KJT973
In the actual hand, North pre-empted, but I'm interested in what would
happen without interference, assuming East as the dealer. This sort of
hand seems to be something of a challenge for natural bidding systems,
as West is too weak to really show anything about their hand, and East
is naturally going to prefer hearts.
2C, 2D (artificial game force; bad hand)
2H, 3C (both natural)
4C, 4H (club support; heart tolerance)
but East doesn't have much of a reason to think there's a slam on, so
will likely just pass; hearts score better than clubs. (Note that I'm
far from sure that the third round of bidding here is correct; perhaps
West should bid 5C to show six clubs, but at least at matchpoints,
East has to pass this without knowing that West has the King of Clubs,
and West has shown no points at all so far so there's no reason to
expect a particular honour in that hand.)
Systems where a game force allows a negative response to show a suit
have no problem here. For example, in Polish Club, where the game force
is split over two bids, and thus the responder can show a negative and a
1C, 1D (balanced/clubs/strong; bad hand or no suit to show)
2D, 3C (artificial game force; a club suit worth showing)
3H, 4C (best suit hearts; six clubs)
6C (West must surely have CK, so East can count 12 tricks)
1C, 2C (balanced or strong; <8 HCP but 6 clubs)
5C, 6C (I can count 11 tricks; I have a 12th trick)
However, this all seems to rely on the responder having some method of
showing a long suit, which is rare when showing a bad hand normally has
a higher priority. (This hand is unusual because East needs to be the
hand with shorter trumps to make use of the singleton Spade, so East
badly needs to find a long suit in West's hand to have any hope of
making a slam.)
So I'm interested in how more natural systems deal with this sort of
hand and find the right suit to be in.
(Note that the hands here could actually have made a grand slam but only
because the HK was onside, something that E/W have no way of knowing. So
a perfect bidding system should end up in a small slam in clubs.)
--
ais523

This is all over-complicating matters
2C - 2D
2H - 3C
4C - 6C
As long as 2C shows a genuinely strong hand, responder just bids what his hand is worth opposite club support (also happy that partner is playing it)

hmm, even a very strong hand can easy be two aces short

Co Wiersma

[Fred.]

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by ais523
S A
H AQ654
D AK5
C AQ86
S T76
H 92
D T4
C KJT973
In the actual hand, North pre-empted, but I'm interested in what would
happen without interference, assuming East as the dealer. This sort of
hand seems to be something of a challenge for natural bidding systems,
as West is too weak to really show anything about their hand, and East
is naturally going to prefer hearts.
2C, 2D (artificial game force; bad hand)
2H, 3C (both natural)
4C, 4H (club support; heart tolerance)
but East doesn't have much of a reason to think there's a slam on, so
will likely just pass; hearts score better than clubs. (Note that I'm
far from sure that the third round of bidding here is correct; perhaps
West should bid 5C to show six clubs, but at least at matchpoints,
East has to pass this without knowing that West has the King of Clubs,
and West has shown no points at all so far so there's no reason to
expect a particular honour in that hand.)
Systems where a game force allows a negative response to show a suit
have no problem here. For example, in Polish Club, where the game force
is split over two bids, and thus the responder can show a negative and a
1C, 1D (balanced/clubs/strong; bad hand or no suit to show)
2D, 3C (artificial game force; a club suit worth showing)
3H, 4C (best suit hearts; six clubs)
6C (West must surely have CK, so East can count 12 tricks)
1C, 2C (balanced or strong; <8 HCP but 6 clubs)
5C, 6C (I can count 11 tricks; I have a 12th trick)
However, this all seems to rely on the responder having some method of
showing a long suit, which is rare when showing a bad hand normally has
a higher priority. (This hand is unusual because East needs to be the
hand with shorter trumps to make use of the singleton Spade, so East
badly needs to find a long suit in West's hand to have any hope of
making a slam.)
So I'm interested in how more natural systems deal with this sort of
hand and find the right suit to be in.
(Note that the hands here could actually have made a grand slam but only
because the HK was onside, something that E/W have no way of knowing. So
a perfect bidding system should end up in a small slam in clubs.)
--
ais523

This is all over-complicating matters
2C - 2D
2H - 3C
4C - 6C
As long as 2C shows a genuinely strong hand, responder just bids what his hand is worth opposite club support (also happy that partner is playing it)

hmm, even a very strong hand can easy be two aces short
Co Wiersma

I've had good luck bidding slams on values when I lack the
luxury of checking for aces and one of the hands is known to
be strong. Besides an opener off 2 aces will often rebid 3NT
or 3H. 4C suggests at least some interest in slam facing a 2D
response which just isn't going to contain 2 key cards.

Fred.

[t***@att.net]

It seems to me that this hand is ideal for 2C strong. It has 3 losers; 5 winners so more winners than losers. It has 23HCP (24 adding for the Aces). And 6 Honor tricks. The point is that it easily makes game against a partner who would pass a 1-level bid.

However, I do play a fairly strong 2C: minimum 21HCP, 5 QT (or 23HCP balanced.) It does help here (not always) to be playing natural responses so that after 2C-2D, 2H-3C, West has shown a hand with fewer than 7HCP but still not a double negative (2NT would show the double negative).

[[e-mail]]

Post by t***@att.net
It seems to me that this hand is ideal for 2C strong. It has 3 losers; 5 winners so more winners than losers. It has 23HCP (24 adding for the Aces). And 6 Honor tricks. The point is that it easily makes game against a partner who would pass a 1-level bid.
However, I do play a fairly strong 2C: minimum 21HCP, 5 QT (or 23HCP balanced.) It does help here (not always) to be playing natural responses so that after 2C-2D, 2H-3C, West has shown a hand with fewer than 7HCP but still not a double negative (2NT would show the double negative).

It is ideal for 2C opening, *provided* the rebid structure accommodates 5431 and 5440 shapes well.

Without a lot of preparation, opener's 3rd best suit gets buried in practice.

Carl

[t***@att.net]

One reason for favoring natural (as much a possible) responses to artificial openings. (Suit substitutions like transfers or C=H,D=S,H=C,S=D, are essentially natural.)