What is this double:

1C 1S pass 2C(Sound raise to 3S)
Dble

KWSchneider

2018-03-03 16:58:18 UTC

Real club suit

T Nemlioglu

2018-03-03 17:19:00 UTC

Post by Dave Flower
1C 1S pass 2C(Sound raise to 3S)
Dble

I'd take it as lead directing; a good club suit.

--
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?

judyorcarl@verizon.net

2018-03-03 18:45:38 UTC

Post by Dave Flower
1C 1S pass 2C(Sound raise to 3S)
Dble

I'd take it as lead directing; a good club suit.
--
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?

Yes, lead-directing.

But strain not to do it. Aid and comfort to enemy.

If your partner refuses to lead your suit unless you double, find another partner.

Carl

KWSchneider

2018-03-07 13:43:15 UTC

Post by Dave Flower
1C 1S pass 2C(Sound raise to 3S)
Dble

I'd take it as lead directing; a good club suit.
--
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?

Yes, lead-directing.
But strain not to do it. Aid and comfort to enemy.
If your partner refuses to lead your suit unless you double, find another partner.
Carl

I'm not likely to lead clubs after a 1C opening unless there is other evidence that it makes sense. I wasn't aware that you only opened 1m when you wanted the suit lead...

judyorcarl@verizon.net

2018-03-07 18:10:20 UTC

Post by Dave Flower
1C 1S pass 2C(Sound raise to 3S)
Dble

I'd take it as lead directing; a good club suit.
--
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?

Yes, lead-directing.
But strain not to do it. Aid and comfort to enemy.
If your partner refuses to lead your suit unless you double, find another partner.
Carl

I'm not likely to lead clubs after a 1C opening unless there is other evidence that it makes sense. I wasn't aware that you only opened 1m when you wanted the suit lead...

"Wanting" the suit led is irrelevant. If there is an *attractive" lead in a different suit, lead it. If there is no attractive lead, ....

Carl

KWSchneider

2018-03-13 21:48:16 UTC

On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 1:10:23 PM UTC-5, ***@verizon.net wrote:
<snipped>

Post by ***@verizon.net
If your partner refuses to lead your suit unless you double, find another partner.

I'm not likely to lead clubs after a 1C opening unless there is other evidence that it makes sense. I wasn't aware that you only opened 1m when you wanted the suit lead...

"Wanting" the suit led is irrelevant. If there is an *attractive" lead in a different suit, lead it. If there is no attractive lead, ....

Not at all sure what your point is here. You clearly intimated that a 1C opening would demand a club lead (or you would look for another partner). As a corollary then, one would only open 1C in order to solicit a club lead, since it would be expected. I was suggesting that you would probably be looking for another partner in my case, since over your 1C opening, I would be just as likely to lead something other than a club.

Your response is confusing to me in this context.

judyorcarl@verizon.net

2018-03-31 00:06:22 UTC

Post by KWSchneider
<snipped>

Post by ***@verizon.net
If your partner refuses to lead your suit unless you double, find another partner.

I'm not likely to lead clubs after a 1C opening unless there is other evidence that it makes sense. I wasn't aware that you only opened 1m when you wanted the suit lead...

"Wanting" the suit led is irrelevant. If there is an *attractive" lead in a different suit, lead it. If there is no attractive lead, ....

I certainly am not intimating that a 1C opening demands or even suggests an opening club lead.

But if partner has all suits beginning Qxx, I certainly expect a club lead rather than a stab in some other suit. Surely you wouldn't mastermind like that.

Failing to double a cue is the *normal* action. It does not, and cannot, suggest avoiding a club lead when no other lead is attractive.

Carl

ais523

2018-03-31 00:31:29 UTC

Post by ***@verizon.net
I certainly am not intimating that a 1C opening demands or even
suggests an opening club lead.
But if partner has all suits beginning Qxx, I certainly expect a club
lead rather than a stab in some other suit. Surely you wouldn't
mastermind like that.
Failing to double a cue is the *normal* action. It does not, and
cannot, suggest avoiding a club lead when no other lead is attractive.

I think it's reasonable to say that a partner with no obvious
information in their hand to decide what suit to lead will lead clubs
even if the opener's 1C was a "may be short" lead, and a partner with a
really strong/obvious lead option will lead it even if their partner has
strongly suggested another suit.

However, there's got to be grey area in between; perhaps the partner's
hand has a lead that seems slightly more promising than the others but
not by a large extent. In situations like that, they'd probably benefit
from knowing *how strongly* the opener cares about having clubs led. So
the ability to double the cue bid to say "yes, my club suit is actually
really good as a lead" doesn't seem unreasonable. (The alternative, not
doubling, would imply "my hand isn't any better for having clubs lead to
it than you'd expect from a 1C opener"; that's the common situation, but
there are some suits that particularly want the lead. Not enough to
override the partner in all cases, of course, but enough to override the
partner when it's close between a lead in clubs and a mildly good lead
in another suit.)

--
ais523

judyorcarl@verizon.net

2018-03-31 12:37:46 UTC

Post by ais523

I think it's reasonable to say that a partner with no obvious
information in their hand to decide what suit to lead will lead clubs
even if the opener's 1C was a "may be short" lead, and a partner with a
really strong/obvious lead option will lead it even if their partner has
strongly suggested another suit.
However, there's got to be grey area in between; perhaps the partner's
hand has a lead that seems slightly more promising than the others but
not by a large extent. In situations like that, they'd probably benefit
from knowing *how strongly* the opener cares about having clubs led. So
the ability to double the cue bid to say "yes, my club suit is actually
really good as a lead" doesn't seem unreasonable. (The alternative, not
doubling, would imply "my hand isn't any better for having clubs lead to
it than you'd expect from a 1C opener"; that's the common situation, but
there are some suits that particularly want the lead. Not enough to
override the partner in all cases, of course, but enough to override the
partner when it's close between a lead in clubs and a mildly good lead
in another suit.)
--
ais523

But here's the thing: Doubling a cue bid is *good* for the opponents' auction. It allows the partner of the cue-bidder two extra calls. And narrowing the meaning of the bids, because that partner never has to select a least-misdescriptive bid.

So you cannot in the long run double that cue to say it's ok to lead this. And therefore your partner cannot infer from failure to double that is is not ok.

Carl

judyorcarl@verizon.net

2018-03-08 01:28:50 UTC

Post by Dave Flower
1C 1S pass 2C(Sound raise to 3S)
Dble

I'd take it as lead directing; a good club suit.
--
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?

Yes, lead-directing.
But strain not to do it. Aid and comfort to enemy.
If your partner refuses to lead your suit unless you double, find another partner.
Carl

I'm not likely to lead clubs after a 1C opening unless there is other evidence that it makes sense. I wasn't aware that you only opened 1m when you wanted the suit lead...

You seem to be saying that a club opening actively discourages the lead. That is mad. At the least, there is an element of restricted choice.

Doubling the cue bid does not say it's OK to lead clubs. It requests a club lead even if another suit seems more attractive.

Carl

ais523

2018-03-09 21:22:29 UTC

Post by Dave Flower
1C 1S pass 2C(Sound raise to 3S)
Dble

I'd take it as lead directing; a good club suit.
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?

Yes, lead-directing.
But strain not to do it. Aid and comfort to enemy.
If your partner refuses to lead your suit unless you double, find another partner.
Carl

I'm not likely to lead clubs after a 1C opening unless there is other
evidence that it makes sense. I wasn't aware that you only opened 1m
when you wanted the suit lead...

You seem to be saying that a club opening actively discourages the
lead. That is mad. At the least, there is an element of restricted choice.
Doubling the cue bid does not say it's OK to lead clubs. It requests
a club lead even if another suit seems more attractive.

I think this might come down to system.

At one extreme, if the opener's playing a 4 card major system (e.g.
Acol), then 1C shows genuine clubs by itself. So doubling the cue bid
shows not only that the clubs make a particularly good lead, but
possibly shows more strength than expected from the 1C opening (and
maybe suggests that the responder compete in clubs if they have a
suitable holding).

The other extreme would be if the 1C lead were entirely artificial (e.g.
Precision), but even with a "short club" system (with 1C nonforcing
and suggesting that no higher bid is available, but guaranteeing only
2 clubs), the 1C bid doesn't necessarily suggest much in clubs. In that
case, the double therefore simply suggests that the hand actually has
clubs, without showing extra strength or a particularly binding lead
direction. It's still suggesting clubs as a suit to lead, but with
much less conviction than the Acol version.

Systems that use a "better minor" interpretation of 1C are somewhere
between these; in that case, the 1C bid guarantees that the clubs are
better than diamonds and that no five-card major exists, but that could
still be a fairly shabby club suit. (Presumably the opener either has
genuine clubs or was planning to rebid 1NT, so the interpretation of the
bid may well depend on the notrumps range too.)

--
ais523

judyorcarl@verizon.net

2018-03-09 21:55:37 UTC

Post by ais523

Post by Dave Flower
1C 1S pass 2C(Sound raise to 3S)
Dble

I'd take it as lead directing; a good club suit.
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?

Yes, lead-directing.
But strain not to do it. Aid and comfort to enemy.
If your partner refuses to lead your suit unless you double, find another partner.
Carl

I'm not likely to lead clubs after a 1C opening unless there is other
evidence that it makes sense. I wasn't aware that you only opened 1m
when you wanted the suit lead...

You seem to be saying that a club opening actively discourages the
lead. That is mad. At the least, there is an element of restricted choice.
Doubling the cue bid does not say it's OK to lead clubs. It requests
a club lead even if another suit seems more attractive.

I think this might come down to system.
At one extreme, if the opener's playing a 4 card major system (e.g.
Acol), then 1C shows genuine clubs by itself. So doubling the cue bid
shows not only that the clubs make a particularly good lead, but
possibly shows more strength than expected from the 1C opening (and
maybe suggests that the responder compete in clubs if they have a
suitable holding).
The other extreme would be if the 1C lead were entirely artificial (e.g.
Precision), but even with a "short club" system (with 1C nonforcing
and suggesting that no higher bid is available, but guaranteeing only
2 clubs), the 1C bid doesn't necessarily suggest much in clubs. In that
case, the double therefore simply suggests that the hand actually has
clubs, without showing extra strength or a particularly binding lead
direction. It's still suggesting clubs as a suit to lead, but with
much less conviction than the Acol version.
Systems that use a "better minor" interpretation of 1C are somewhere
between these; in that case, the 1C bid guarantees that the clubs are
better than diamonds and that no five-card major exists, but that could
still be a fairly shabby club suit. (Presumably the opener either has
genuine clubs or was planning to rebid 1NT, so the interpretation of the
bid may well depend on the notrumps range too.)
--
ais523

If 1C was artificial, then the 2C may well be understood as showing a suit. You do *not* want to help the bad guys sort it out.

In every case, doubling 2C *clarifies* the opponents' auction. Do it only if urgent. If you want to save in clubs, don't be a wimp: Bid 3C.

Carl

Player

2018-03-04 12:09:36 UTC

Post by Dave Flower
1C 1S pass 2C(Sound raise to 3S)
Dble

Good Cs

f***@googlemail.com

2018-03-05 09:46:33 UTC

Post by Dave Flower
1C 1S pass 2C(Sound raise to 3S)
Dble

Playing a short club, I play this particular double as good clubs; but in general I play double of a cue-raise as take-out of their suit.

1D 1S pass 2D
dbl

take-out of spades.

Berti Rupsli

2018-03-05 10:46:41 UTC

Post by Dave Flower
1C 1S pass 2C(Sound raise to 3S)
Dble

playing a 1Suit-opening as regular (and 1C does not automatically mean it's "short") wouldn't that normally inspire a lead of that suit by partner? So this DBL could mean "don't lead it" ...?

Berti

p***@infi.net

2018-03-05 11:13:13 UTC

Post by Berti Rupsli

Post by Dave Flower
1C 1S pass 2C(Sound raise to 3S)
Dble

playing a 1Suit-opening as regular (and 1C does not automatically mean it's "short") wouldn't that normally inspire a lead of that suit by partner? So this DBL could mean "don't lead it" ...?
Berti

Some play that, but it seems just as obvious to play "since I had the chance to double and didn't, a lead here may not be best."

judyorcarl@verizon.net

2018-03-06 20:49:36 UTC

Post by p***@infi.net

Post by Berti Rupsli

Post by Dave Flower
1C 1S pass 2C(Sound raise to 3S)
Dble

playing a 1Suit-opening as regular (and 1C does not automatically mean it's "short") wouldn't that normally inspire a lead of that suit by partner? So this DBL could mean "don't lead it" ...?
Berti

Some play that, but it seems just as obvious to play "since I had the chance to double and didn't, a lead here may not be best."

Horrifying

p***@infi.net

2018-03-05 10:54:17 UTC

Post by Dave Flower
1C 1S pass 2C(Sound raise to 3S)
Dble

I've never seen that description of the cue-bid. Just to clarify, was the cue-bid game-invitational (as commonly played in North America and commonly referred to as a Limit Raise or Limit Plus Raise) or a "Sound raise to TWO Spades" (Unassuming Cue-bid) or something in between?

It seems risky to compete for the part-score over a Limit Raise; they will be eager to either double us or revalue there hands for a game bid. There will be times we can push them up a level and set them, but I would think lead direction or sacrifice orientation would be most important. Over an Unassuming Cue BId competing for the part score seem vital, and we have both double and the counter-cue (2S) available to help us.

Lorne Anderson

2018-03-06 10:53:29 UTC

Post by p***@infi.net

1C 1S pass 2C(Sound raise to 3S) Dble

I've never seen that description of the cue-bid. Just to clarify, was
the cue-bid game-invitational (as commonly played in North America
and commonly referred to as a Limit Raise or Limit Plus Raise) or a
"Sound raise to TWO Spades" (Unassuming Cue-bid) or something in
between?
It seems risky to compete for the part-score over a Limit Raise; they
will be eager to either double us or revalue there hands for a game
bid. There will be times we can push them up a level and set them,
but I would think lead direction or sacrifice orientation would be
most important. Over an Unassuming Cue BId competing for the part
score seem vital, and we have both double and the counter-cue (2S)
available to help us.

The normal UK meaning for 2C is 10+ points and 3+ spades so 3S may be a
typo but at club level all sorts of agreements can occur.

The Dbl usually shows good clubs.

Steve Willner

2018-03-30 20:23:52 UTC