Discussion:
Missed game, can it be found?
(too old to reply)
a***@yahoo.co.uk
2018-09-23 09:48:26 UTC
Permalink
IMP pairs, no-one vuln:

North
AKJT
T8763
-
QJ93

N E S W
1NT* P 2NT**
P 3C*** P 3D
AP

* 14-16
** Transfer to diamonds
*** Good diamond support (not necessarily maximum HCP)

3D made on a defensive slip-up.

Full deal:

AKJT
T8763
-
QJ93
87 Q642
Q5 A9
A98763 KJ52
T76 A42
953
KJ42
QT4
K85

NS can make 4H. Given system agreement, could North reasonably bid 3D over 2NT as a takeout? It is unfortunate we were playing against the only pair in the room playing 4-suit transfers, everyone else gets the auction 1NT-P-P to North who can come in with a two-suited bid e.g Astro or Landy.
Lorne
2018-09-23 10:02:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
North
AKJT
T8763
-
QJ93
N E S W
1NT* P 2NT**
P 3C*** P 3D
AP
* 14-16
** Transfer to diamonds
*** Good diamond support (not necessarily maximum HCP)
3D made on a defensive slip-up.
AKJT
T8763
-
QJ93
87 Q642
Q5 A9
A98763 KJ52
T76 A42
953
KJ42
QT4
K85
NS can make 4H. Given system agreement, could North reasonably bid 3D over 2NT as a takeout? It is unfortunate we were playing against the only pair in the room playing 4-suit transfers, everyone else gets the auction 1NT-P-P to North who can come in with a two-suited bid e.g Astro or Landy.
N has a clear double of 3D IMO. Once E has shown good diamonds and W
has said the 3 level is far enough it is clear that partner has some
values and very good odds that he has a major suit fit.

Bidding 3D over 2N is more risky as West might be about to follow with
3N as a slam try in diamonds so if you bid and there is no fit you will
get doubled.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2018-09-23 12:27:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
North
AKJT
T8763
-
QJ93
N E S W
1NT* P 2NT**
P 3C*** P 3D
AP
* 14-16
** Transfer to diamonds
*** Good diamond support (not necessarily maximum HCP)
3D made on a defensive slip-up.
AKJT
T8763
-
QJ93
87 Q642
Q5 A9
A98763 KJ52
T76 A42
953
KJ42
QT4
K85
NS can make 4H. Given system agreement, could North reasonably bid 3D over 2NT as a takeout? It is unfortunate we were playing against the only pair in the room playing 4-suit transfers, everyone else gets the auction 1NT-P-P to North who can come in with a two-suited bid e.g Astro or Landy.
N has a clear double of 3D IMO. Once E has shown good diamonds and W
has said the 3 level is far enough it is clear that partner has some
values and very good odds that he has a major suit fit.
Bidding 3D over 2N is more risky as West might be about to follow with
3N as a slam try in diamonds so if you bid and there is no fit you will
get doubled.
those kinds of subtle distinctions cannot be maintained at 3-level.

Failure to make a takeout call at first opportunity means no takeout call ever.

Passing over 2NT then doubling 3D would be nearly 1NT values and support. Not exciting distribution.

Carl
Lorne
2018-09-23 14:00:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Passing over 2NT then doubling 3D would be nearly 1NT values and support. Not exciting distribution.
Carl
A double of 2N would show a good balanced hand, passing then doubling
shows a protective T/O - ie bidding because you know from the oppo
auction that you plus partner have some values but you did not have
enough of them to act initially.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2018-09-23 23:19:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne
Post by ***@verizon.net
Passing over 2NT then doubling 3D would be nearly 1NT values and support. Not exciting distribution.
Carl
A double of 2N would show a good balanced hand, passing then doubling
shows a protective T/O - ie bidding because you know from the oppo
auction that you plus partner have some values but you did not have
enough of them to act initially.
no there will never be an inference about partner's theoretical values that make the 3-level survivable with at most a small loss.

i repeat: 3-level.

And i wasn't contrasting the double of 2NT with the delayed double of 3D. I was insisting that if you can't demand competition over 2NT (by bidding 3D) there is no hand that miraculously lets you do so over 3D.

Carl
f***@googlemail.com
2018-11-22 14:48:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Lorne
Post by ***@verizon.net
Passing over 2NT then doubling 3D would be nearly 1NT values and support. Not exciting distribution.
Carl
A double of 2N would show a good balanced hand, passing then doubling
shows a protective T/O - ie bidding because you know from the oppo
auction that you plus partner have some values but you did not have
enough of them to act initially.
no there will never be an inference about partner's theoretical values that make the 3-level survivable with at most a small loss.
i repeat: 3-level.
And i wasn't contrasting the double of 2NT with the delayed double of 3D. I was insisting that if you can't demand competition over 2NT (by bidding 3D) there is no hand that miraculously lets you do so over 3D.
Carl
Yes there is.
Double of 2NT = strong hand
Double of 3D = take-out of diamonds
3D bid over 2NT = majors
Fred.
2018-11-26 03:53:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Lorne
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
North
AKJT
T8763
-
QJ93
N E S W
1NT* P 2NT**
P 3C*** P 3D
AP
* 14-16
** Transfer to diamonds
*** Good diamond support (not necessarily maximum HCP)
3D made on a defensive slip-up.
AKJT
T8763
-
QJ93
87 Q642
Q5 A9
A98763 KJ52
T76 A42
953
KJ42
QT4
K85
NS can make 4H. Given system agreement, could North reasonably bid 3D over 2NT as a takeout? It is unfortunate we were playing against the only pair in the room playing 4-suit transfers, everyone else gets the auction 1NT-P-P to North who can come in with a two-suited bid e.g Astro or Landy.
N has a clear double of 3D IMO. Once E has shown good diamonds and W
has said the 3 level is far enough it is clear that partner has some
values and very good odds that he has a major suit fit.
Bidding 3D over 2N is more risky as West might be about to follow with
3N as a slam try in diamonds so if you bid and there is no fit you will
get doubled.
those kinds of subtle distinctions cannot be maintained at 3-level.
-> Failure to make a takeout call at first opportunity means no takeout call ever.

Where did this principle come from? I'd think

S W N E
(1H) pass (2H) pass
(pass) X

would be a standard reopening double. West passes the
first time because too weak to intervene between
unlimited hands, and doubles for takeout once the
opponents show limited values and fit.

The same principle comes up in the standard defense
against multi-2D: immediate actions are strong,
delayed actions where responder has shown limited
values and opener a weak-2 are weaker.

I know you hate relying on the opponents' bidding
but sometimes is just the right thing to do.

Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Passing over 2NT then doubling 3D would be nearly 1NT values and support. Not exciting distribution.
Carl
Player
2018-11-22 10:18:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
North
AKJT
T8763
-
QJ93
N E S W
1NT* P 2NT**
P 3C*** P 3D
AP
* 14-16
** Transfer to diamonds
*** Good diamond support (not necessarily maximum HCP)
3D made on a defensive slip-up.
AKJT
T8763
-
QJ93
87 Q642
Q5 A9
A98763 KJ52
T76 A42
953
KJ42
QT4
K85
NS can make 4H. Given system agreement, could North reasonably bid 3D over 2NT as a takeout? It is unfortunate we were playing against the only pair in the room playing 4-suit transfers, everyone else gets the auction 1NT-P-P to North who can come in with a two-suited bid e.g Astro or Landy.
This is a clear double of 3D. It is laughable to say it isn't.
ais523
2018-11-22 14:51:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Player
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
North
AKJT
T8763
-
QJ93
N E S W
1NT* P 2NT**
P 3C*** P 3D
AP
* 14-16
** Transfer to diamonds
*** Good diamond support (not necessarily maximum HCP)
This is a clear double of 3D. It is laughable to say it isn't.
I'd go so far as saying it's a double of 2NT (assuming that that's
takeout with values in the system in use; it can hardly be interpreted
as lead-directional, but is too weak if the agreement is that it's
penalty, so it rather depends on how the partnership handles doubles
of purely artificial notrump bids). The double of 3D is clearly
acceptable but could be made with a hand rather weaker than that, so
South may have trouble working out whether to bid game or not. If you
double 2NT for takeout, that shows approximate opening bid strength
(and focus on the majors, obviously), meaning that South will have the
information to bid to the right level.
--
ais523
f***@googlemail.com
2018-11-22 14:47:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
North
AKJT
T8763
-
QJ93
N E S W
1NT* P 2NT**
P 3C*** P 3D
AP
* 14-16
** Transfer to diamonds
*** Good diamond support (not necessarily maximum HCP)
3D made on a defensive slip-up.
AKJT
T8763
-
QJ93
87 Q642
Q5 A9
A98763 KJ52
T76 A42
953
KJ42
QT4
K85
NS can make 4H. Given system agreement, could North reasonably bid 3D over 2NT as a takeout? It is unfortunate we were playing against the only pair in the room playing 4-suit transfers, everyone else gets the auction 1NT-P-P to North who can come in with a two-suited bid e.g Astro or Landy.
North has an obvious double of 3D (one poster on this thread is unique in thinking this is penalties, no-one else does).

It's less obvious that South should bid game over that, particularly at matchpoints, and it's not obvious that it's going to make (you might play East for AQx of hearts). But at least you would be in a making partscore, which will be a big matchpoint improvement.
Loading...