Discussion:
question regarding cross-imp pairs and movements
(too old to reply)
a***@yahoo.co.uk
2018-08-18 12:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Yesterday evening at the monthly cross-IMP pairs evening, the director, with eight full tables, decided to play a four board round Mitchell movement, two winners, announcing that playing a Howell or arrow-switched movement is less fair. I enquired after the play as to why this is so. He said that if a pair is consistently switching polarity and they happen to cop the worst hands at the table regularly as a result, they end up struggling to generate a decent score when the opponents bid and make the slams, which dumps significant negative imp scoresd on them which they can do nothing about. I thought about this, but realise that this can happen with a two winner Mitchell, which is exactly what had happened that evening. The hands were hugely biased NS, they declared 18 out of 28 boards against partner and I, they had 10 games and two slams (one which was only bid once), we had just four games and no slams. Is it really correct that a two winner movement is fairer for a cross-IMP scored event?
ais523
2018-08-18 14:32:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Yesterday evening at the monthly cross-IMP pairs evening, the
director, with eight full tables, decided to play a four board round
Mitchell movement, two winners, announcing that playing a Howell or
arrow-switched movement is less fair. I enquired after the play as to
why this is so. He said that if a pair is consistently switching
polarity and they happen to cop the worst hands at the table regularly
as a result, they end up struggling to generate a decent score when
the opponents bid and make the slams, which dumps significant negative
imp scoresd on them which they can do nothing about. I thought about
this, but realise that this can happen with a two winner Mitchell,
which is exactly what had happened that evening. The hands were hugely
biased NS, they declared 18 out of 28 boards against partner and I,
they had 10 games and two slams (one which was only bid once), we had
just four games and no slams. Is it really correct that a two winner
movement is fairer for a cross-IMP scored event?
The fairness of a movement is normally measured in the amount of
competition between pairs. Whenever you play a board, you have direct
opponents (the players sitting across from you), indirect opponents (the
other players who will play the same board in the same direction, thus
hurting your score if you do well), and indirect allies (the other
players who will play the same board in the opposite direction but not
against you, thus helping your score if they do better than your direct
oppoennts do). The amount of competition with a pair is measured in
terms of how much that pair can influence your score as opponents,
minus how much they can influence it as allies. For a movement to be
fair, your total amount of competition with each other pair should be
relatively constant.

As a simple example, when playing a straight Mitchell using matchpoints,
each pair in the opposite direction are direct opponents once and
indirect allies the rest of the time, and it turns out that the amount
of help they can give you in total as indirect allies (changing the
"number of teams you did better than" by 1) is exactly equal to the
amount they can hurt you at the time that they're direct opponents
(changing the "number of teams you did better than" by the number of
teams in the field, minus 1). So a matchpoint Mitchell has zero
competition with the other half of the field, and a constant amount of
competition with your own half (who are always indirect opponents). A
full Howell is likewise considered fair when playing matchpoints,
because the arrow-switches are set up to make the amount of competition
add up to a constant.

However, when you're playing cross-IMPs, there's a problem: using IMP
scoring, some hands have higher scoring potential than others. If a hand
is obviously a partscore hand, especially not vulnerable, the raw scores
being IMPed against each other will be fairly small; no matter how good
a pair you are, you're unlikely to be able to get a large swing. On the
other hand, if you have one of those hands where both sides can make
game and people are strongly considering sacrificing in (or even
making!) slams, you'd expect much higher IMP totals for the hand. So the
amount of competition available on each individual hand is randomized
somewhat, based on the actual cards dealt.

This can screw up both 1-winner and 2-winner movements, although not in
the way your director explained. The basic issue is that if you're
playing against worse opponents on the high-scoring hands, and better
opponents on the low-scoring hands, you're going to have an advantage;
in other words, pairs will get a (fairly random) set of indirect allies
and indirect opponents based on the actual cards dealt. In a 2-winner
movement, this can lead to players having indirect allies and opponents
in the other half of the movement, which isn't supposed to happen; in a
1-winner movement, the extent to which various pairs oppose each other
can vary wildly. (Matchpoint scoring avoids both these problems by
artificially increasing the importance of small scoring variations on
flat hands; an overtrick is typically worth 1 IMP, but it can be worth
anything from 0% to 100% of the matchpoints depending on how flat the
hand is.)

The director's reasoning is wrong, incidentally, because having a bad
hand doesn't actually reduce the amount of IMPs available at cross-IMPs;
if you have a bad hand and the opponents a good one, then you can get a
very bad score by letting the opponents make a slam that shouldn't make,
or a very good score by persuading them out of slam (or pushing them
into a slam that doesn't make when they had a cold game). After all,
IMPing is based on a comparison of two scores, and the scores being
compared with will have been obtained with the same arrangement of
hands on the board. All your indirect allies on the board will have the
same powerful hands as your opponents, and be able to increase the
score by doing better than you. All your indirect opponents will have
hands just as weak as yours, and only be able to hurt your score by
accomplishing something better with them.

(There is a potential argument along the director's lines, though: often
a pair with a very weak hand will have no influence on the bidding or
play, leaving the result of the hand entirely up to how good the
opponents are at finding slams and/or avoiding bad slams. But "not being
able to influence the end score" doesn't actually hurt or help your
score in its own right; for all you know, your opponents will be the
ones who screw up and your indirect allies the ones who bid to the right
level.)
--
ais523
Peter Smulders
2018-08-18 16:38:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Yesterday evening at the monthly cross-IMP pairs evening, the director, with eight full tables, decided to play a four board round Mitchell movement, two winners, announcing that playing a Howell or arrow-switched movement is less fair. I enquired after the play as to why this is so. He said that if a pair is consistently switching polarity and they happen to cop the worst hands at the table regularly as a result, they end up struggling to generate a decent score when the opponents bid and make the slams, which dumps significant negative imp scoresd on them which they can do nothing about. I thought about this, but realise that this can happen with a two winner Mitchell, which is exactly what had happened that evening. The hands were hugely biased NS, they declared 18 out of 28 boards against partner and I, they had 10 games and two slams (one which was only bid once), we had just four games and no slams. Is it really correct that a two winner movement is fairer for a cross-IMP scored event?
A 2-winner Mitchell is definitely fairer the a 1-winner arrow-switched
Mitchell. The fairness of a Howell and the 2-winner Mitchell are almost
the same. This is true for cross-IMP as well MP scoring.
In assessing the quality of a movement it is assumed the strength of the
players as well as the scoring potential of the hands are evenly
distributed. If on the other hand, in a 2-winner Mitchell, you are the
only strong NS pair and all other strong pairs are sitting EW than the
arrangement is of course very unfair. Results you can do little or
nothing about (e.g. your opponents are the only o
a***@yahoo.co.uk
2018-08-18 17:08:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Smulders
Results you can do little or
nothing about (e.g. your opponents are the only ones making a slam)
happen in any movement.
True, but if the hands are strongly biased to one orientation, then one side will have the opportunity to bid and make the slams, and the other side have to hope that what happens to them is replicated across the room if they can not come into the bidding and have no defence to the slam. The side copping the weak hands will be more likely to lose significant imps if they get multiple slams bid against them, since in a mixed field, the more theoretiucal slams there are available against them, the more likely they get a slam punted against them that no-one else bids, or their opponents are the only ones good enough to find it. This isn't so bad at MPs, because you can recover from a bottom by cuffing one of the weaker pairs later on. At IMPS, you need the equivalent of a game swing or about three partscore battles your way to compensate for a slam swing against you. What I am thinking is that bias in the hands can happen whatever the movement, so this element of luck can't be eliminated.
Lorne
2018-08-19 22:19:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Yesterday evening at the monthly cross-IMP pairs evening, the director, with eight full tables, decided to play a four board round Mitchell movement, two winners, announcing that playing a Howell or arrow-switched movement is less fair. I enquired after the play as to why this is so. He said that if a pair is consistently switching polarity and they happen to cop the worst hands at the table regularly as a result, they end up struggling to generate a decent score when the opponents bid and make the slams, which dumps significant negative imp scoresd on them which they can do nothing about. I thought about this, but realise that this can happen with a two winner Mitchell, which is exactly what had happened that evening. The hands were hugely biased NS, they declared 18 out of 28 boards against partner and I, they had 10 games and two slams (one which was only bid once), we had just four games and no slams. Is it really correct that a two winner movement is fairer for a cross-IMP scored event?
It is luck of the draw which boards you play against which opponents and
whether you get more or less of the swingy decisions than average but as
a general rule the more opponents you play the fairer it will be over
the long term so I believe 2 board rounds are fairer than 3, and 3 are
fairer than 4. With 8 tables plaaying 2 boards against all 15 oppo
would be fairest, but if you want to restrict it to fewer boards random
seating and 24 or 26 boards against 12 or 13 others is much bette
Loading...