Who should have done more?

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
92
952
AQT962
T7
AKJ64 Q73
64 AKQT8
3 875
KJ982 Q3
T85
J73
KJ4
A654
N E S W
1H P 1S
3D P 4D AP
I didn't fancy opening 1NT with such a good heart suit.
Bottom, everyone else finding the major game.

Bottom maybe but they offered you a top for 4Dx-3.
What's the difference between a 1H and a 2H opener (apart from
the sixth card)? The answer is defensive tricks.
What is the definition of defensive tricks for non-preemptive
openers?
2 tricks?
West has 2.5 defensive tricks. Surely, he has to double 4D expecting
4.5 (i.e. 4 or 5) defensive tricks. The apparent lack of a fit makes it
more attractive.

doug

ais523

2019-09-14 23:24:46 UTC

4DX goes down 3 only because of the 3:3 heart split and 3:2 spade split.
Especially given North's jump in diamonds, relying on friendly splits
doesn't seem like a winning risk in the long run.

As you say, West should be expecting 5 tricks on defence (rather than
the 6 that are actually available). So West will be expecting 4DX to go
down 2 rather than 3, still a bottom if everyone else is finding game.
With a hand that unbalanced, I'd rather risk guessing a suit than taking
a (probably fairly small) penalty.

I do agree, though, that with that much strength, West has to do
/something/. Maybe doubling is the "safe" option, because 4D is
unlikely to make, but I think trying to guess which game you should be
in has a higher expectation.

--
ais523

a***@yahoo.co.uk

2019-09-15 09:16:49 UTC

4DX goes down 3 only because of the 3:3 heart split and 3:2 spade split.
Especially given North's jump in diamonds, relying on friendly splits
doesn't seem like a winning risk in the long run.
As you say, West should be expecting 5 tricks on defence (rather than
the 6 that are actually available). So West will be expecting 4DX to go
down 2 rather than 3, still a bottom if everyone else is finding game.
With a hand that unbalanced, I'd rather risk guessing a suit than taking
a (probably fairly small) penalty.
I do agree, though, that with that much strength, West has to do
/something/. Maybe doubling is the "safe" option, because 4D is
unlikely to make, but I think trying to guess which game you should be
in has a higher expectation.
--
ais523

Is 4D by West definitely penalty here? On this hand it doesn't matter what I take it as, since whatever game I pull too makes.

ais523

2019-09-16 04:18:17 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
N E S W
1H P 1S
3D P 4D AP

[snip]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Is 4D by West definitely penalty here? On this hand it doesn't matter
what I take it as, since whatever game I pull too makes.

Almost all systems I'm aware of would play it as showing a preference
for defending. It wouldn't necessarily show good diamonds: just a belief
that the contract is going down, and some sort of values by implication.

Different partnerships would play it at different points on the
optional-penalty scale, but it'd be unusual for it to be /requesting/
partner to pull.

--
ais523

Co Wiersma

2019-09-16 18:42:14 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
N E S W
1H P 1S
3D P 4D AP

[snip]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Is 4D by West definitely penalty here? On this hand it doesn't matter
what I take it as, since whatever game I pull too makes.

Almost all systems I'm aware of would play it as showing a preference
for defending. It wouldn't necessarily show good diamonds: just a belief
that the contract is going down, and some sort of values by implication.
Different partnerships would play it at different points on the
optional-penalty scale, but it'd be unusual for it to be /requesting/
partner to pull.

problem is of cause that on 4D the options are quite limited
and as pass is no options with 12 healthy points opposite an opening bid

Co Wiersma

Fred.

2019-09-18 00:25:36 UTC

4DX goes down 3 only because of the 3:3 heart split and 3:2 spade split.
Especially given North's jump in diamonds, relying on friendly splits
doesn't seem like a winning risk in the long run.
As you say, West should be expecting 5 tricks on defence (rather than
the 6 that are actually available). So West will be expecting 4DX to go
down 2 rather than 3, still a bottom if everyone else is finding game.
With a hand that unbalanced, I'd rather risk guessing a suit than taking
a (probably fairly small) penalty.
I do agree, though, that with that much strength, West has to do
/something/. Maybe doubling is the "safe" option, because 4D is
unlikely to make, but I think trying to guess which game you should be
in has a higher expectation.
--
ais523

Yes, you're lucky to beat them three tricks, but at least in some
cases with bad breaks in the majors you will score more defending
than going down in 4M.

Fred.

Travis Crump

2019-09-19 03:09:57 UTC

4DX goes down 3 only because of the 3:3 heart split and 3:2 spade split.
Especially given North's jump in diamonds, relying on friendly splits
doesn't seem like a winning risk in the long run.

4DX goes down 3 whenever diamonds are 6-3 and south doesn't have a
singleton major or doubleton club. I would wager that is the majority of
the time on the bidding.

Post by ais523
As you say, West should be expecting 5 tricks on defence (rather than
the 6 that are actually available). So West will be expecting 4DX to go
down 2 rather than 3, still a bottom if everyone else is finding game.
With a hand that unbalanced, I'd rather risk guessing a suit than taking
a (probably fairly small) penalty.
I do agree, though, that with that much strength, West has to do
/something/. Maybe doubling is the "safe" option, because 4D is
unlikely to make, but I think trying to guess which game you should be
in has a higher expectation.

ais523

2019-09-14 23:16:48 UTC

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Sttting East on this hand with a pickup partner who is weak. Acol, 3
92
952
AQT962
T7
AKJ64 Q73
64 AKQT8
3 875
KJ982 Q3
T85
J73
KJ4
A654
N E S W
1H P 1S
3D P 4D AP
I didn't fancy opening 1NT with such a good heart suit.
Bottom, everyone else finding the major game.

Ugh, this is awkward. West has a game force but doesn't know the correct
strain. East knows the correct strain but doesn't know West has a game
force.

Assuming no relevant conventions, East's pass over 3D is clearly
reasonable with that hand; especially when playing the three-weak-two
version of Acol, West's hand could be much, much weaker than it
actually is. (The main advantage of playing Benji is that it allows the
responder to pass more often; in three-weak-twos, the 1H opening has a
very wide range so responder will normally try to keep the auction
alive even when holding a really dubious hand.) So the question is about
whether anyone should have done something over 4D.

If you were playing a 5 card major system, there would be no real
problem here: West will bid 4H to show a game force with 2-card support
(otherwise West would have supported hearts earlier), and East can
play the known 5:2 fit in hearts (AKQT8 is an excellent holding for
playing a 5:2 fit), or else gamble on the known 4:3 and likely 5:3 fit
in spades (if West only has 2 hearts, 4 spades, and the opponents have
a huge diamond fit, then West probably has 6 clubs, but didn't respond
2C).

In Acol it's harder, but the fact that you're playing weak notrumps
means that the hand is still possible. Given that the opponents have a
large diamond fit, if East is holding a strong notrump, then East should
have doubled 3D without spade support (or, obviously, bid 3S with spade
support). (When playing 4-card major systems, an opener with a balanced
hand outside the 1NT/2NT ranges and no support for partner should take
pains to show the balanced hand on their rebid, otherwise the system
can become close to unplayably ambiguous.) However, East passed, thus
must hold some hand other than the strong notrump hand. That means
that West knows East has 5 hearts.

The problem here is that West's 1S response doesn't really deny hearts
any more (most people would prefer to show spades than support a
possibly 4-card heart suit with 3 cards of their own; West didn't know
East's heart length until East's rebid, thus didn't know it at the
time of the 1S bid), so West's 4H looks longer than it is and East
might not know when to pull it. Nonetheless, West pretty much has to
risk bidding something; I think it's a guess between 4H and 4S (my
first instinct was 4S, but after thinking through it, 4H seems like it
will produce better results on average), but as it happens either will
work.

--
ais523

Fred.

2019-09-18 00:55:42 UTC

Ugh, this is awkward. West has a game force but doesn't know the correct
strain. East knows the correct strain but doesn't know West has a game
force.
Assuming no relevant conventions, East's pass over 3D is clearly
reasonable with that hand; especially when playing the three-weak-two
version of Acol, West's hand could be much, much weaker than it
actually is. (The main advantage of playing Benji is that it allows the
responder to pass more often; in three-weak-twos, the 1H opening has a
very wide range so responder will normally try to keep the auction
alive even when holding a really dubious hand.) So the question is about
whether anyone should have done something over 4D.
If you were playing a 5 card major system, there would be no real
problem here: West will bid 4H to show a game force with 2-card support
(otherwise West would have supported hearts earlier), and East can
play the known 5:2 fit in hearts (AKQT8 is an excellent holding for
playing a 5:2 fit), or else gamble on the known 4:3 and likely 5:3 fit
in spades (if West only has 2 hearts, 4 spades, and the opponents have
a huge diamond fit, then West probably has 6 clubs, but didn't respond
2C).
In Acol it's harder, but the fact that you're playing weak notrumps
means that the hand is still possible. Given that the opponents have a
large diamond fit, if East is holding a strong notrump, then East should
have doubled 3D without spade support (or, obviously, bid 3S with spade
support). (When playing 4-card major systems, an opener with a balanced
hand outside the 1NT/2NT ranges and no support for partner should take
pains to show the balanced hand on their rebid, otherwise the system
can become close to unplayably ambiguous.) However, East passed, thus
must hold some hand other than the strong notrump hand. That means
that West knows East has 5 hearts.
The problem here is that West's 1S response doesn't really deny hearts
any more (most people would prefer to show spades than support a
possibly 4-card heart suit with 3 cards of their own; West didn't know
East's heart length until East's rebid, thus didn't know it at the
time of the 1S bid), so West's 4H looks longer than it is and East
might not know when to pull it. Nonetheless, West pretty much has to
risk bidding something; I think it's a guess between 4H and 4S (my
first instinct was 4S, but after thinking through it, 4H seems like it
will produce better results on average), but as it happens either will
work.
--
ais523

I think the most common meaning of the double here is "It's
our hand and you should bid if you have clear action." West
should clearly make this double.

At match points East should pass the double as the action
most likely to result in a plus score. At IMP scoring I
think the possibility of a double swing is a serious
consideration given the undisclosed spade fit. Like you,
as East I pull to 4H on the theory that partner is likely
to help in clubs and I don't want partner to take the first
diamond ruff playing in 4-3 spade fit.

Fred.

Will in New Haven

2019-09-19 21:14:36 UTC

West should do more. I think West is trapped into makiing an unnatractive penaly double but letting them play 4D unmolested is worse.

--
Will in Deerfield Beach

Bruce Evans

2019-09-20 13:12:12 UTC