5=4 majors opposite 2NT opener

[Michelle Steiner]

None vul. match points

Partner opens 2NT in fourth seat (20-21 HCP). You hold

JT864
AQ95
7
J63

I bid 2C (puppet Stayman), and bid 3H over partner's 3D response,
showing longer spades (ostensibly four of them) than hearts, and then
bid 4H over partner's 3NT bid.

Playing puppet Stayman, would you have bid it differently?

[Player]

Post by Michelle Steiner
None vul. match points
Partner opens 2NT in fourth seat (20-21 HCP). You hold
JT864
AQ95
7
J63
I bid 2C (puppet Stayman), and bid 3H over partner's 3D response,
showing longer spades (ostensibly four of them) than hearts, and then
bid 4H over partner's 3NT bid.
Playing puppet Stayman, would you have bid it differently?

1NT 2H
2S 3H

for me.

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Player

Post by Michelle Steiner
None vul. match points
Partner opens 2NT in fourth seat (20-21 HCP). You hold
JT864
AQ95
7
J63
I bid 2C (puppet Stayman), and bid 3H over partner's 3D response,
showing longer spades (ostensibly four of them) than hearts, and then
bid 4H over partner's 3NT bid.
Playing puppet Stayman, would you have bid it differently?

1NT 2H
2S 3H
for me.

Can partner pass 3H?

[Travis Crump]

Post by Michelle Steiner
None vul. match points
Partner opens 2NT in fourth seat (20-21 HCP). You hold
JT864
AQ95
7
J63
I bid 2C (puppet Stayman), and bid 3H over partner's 3D response,
showing longer spades (ostensibly four of them) than hearts, and then
bid 4H over partner's 3NT bid.
Playing puppet Stayman, would you have bid it differently?

You'll have to explain how you are playing puppet. In standard puppet,
3H over 3D just shows 4 spades and denies 4 hearts. I think your bid is
4D, pick a major, over 3D. I'm never quite sure what 4C over 3D is. I
just looked up what the ACBL says, and they neglect to mention[I shudder
to think they are just assuming 4C is gerber]. It feels like they
should both be both majors with one more slammish than the other. I
think you'd like to make a slammish move without commiting past 4M.
Give partner KQxx Kx Axxx AKx, add a point or two to make up the points,
and you are virtually cold for 6.

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Travis Crump

Post by Michelle Steiner
None vul. match points
Partner opens 2NT in fourth seat (20-21 HCP). You hold
JT864
AQ95
7
J63
I bid 2C (puppet Stayman), and bid 3H over partner's 3D response,
showing longer spades (ostensibly four of them) than hearts, and then
bid 4H over partner's 3NT bid.
Playing puppet Stayman, would you have bid it differently?

You'll have to explain how you are playing puppet. In standard puppet,
3H over 3D just shows 4 spades and denies 4 hearts. I think your bid is
4D, pick a major, over 3D.

...

That normally shows 4-4 in the majors; I chose to bid 3H in order to
give us a chance to find a 5-4 fit, which is superior to a 4-4 fit.
That's the only way I knew how to do it if partner were 4-4 in the
majors.

Post by Travis Crump
Give partner KQxx Kx Axxx AKx, add a point or two to make up the points,
and you are virtually cold for 6.

Partner had

AK5
KJ73
AQJ
Q98

I didn't get a club lead, and the spade queen was doubleton on side, so
I made 6, just like more than half the field. No one bid 6, though.

[Berti Rupsli]

Post by Michelle Steiner
None vul. match points
Partner opens 2NT in fourth seat (20-21 HCP). You hold
JT864
AQ95
7
J63
I bid 2C (puppet Stayman), and bid 3H over partner's 3D response,
showing longer spades (ostensibly four of them) than hearts, and then
bid 4H over partner's 3NT bid.
Playing puppet Stayman, would you have bid it differently?

I'd call TD!
2NT - 2C - ...!!!

Berti

[Lorne]

Post by Michelle Steiner
None vul. match points
Partner opens 2NT in fourth seat (20-21 HCP). You hold
JT864
AQ95
7
J63
I bid 2C (puppet Stayman), and bid 3H over partner's 3D response,
showing longer spades (ostensibly four of them) than hearts, and then
bid 4H over partner's 3NT bid.
Playing puppet Stayman, would you have bid it differently?

5-4 S-H is a problem with standard methods.

A way round it is to respond 3D with 3 or 4 spades and/or 4 hearts.
Over 3D, 3H shows no interest or 4 spades, 3S shows 4H and 3N shows 4-4
in the majors.

Over the 3H response opener bids 3S with 4 and 3N otherwise. Over 3N
responder knows there are 4H or 3S opposite so can continue to 4H to
show 5-4.

Note that with no interest responder bids 3H then 3N.

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by Lorne

Post by Michelle Steiner
None vul. match points
Partner opens 2NT in fourth seat (20-21 HCP). You hold
JT864
AQ95
7
J63
I bid 2C (puppet Stayman), and bid 3H over partner's 3D response,
showing longer spades (ostensibly four of them) than hearts, and then
bid 4H over partner's 3NT bid.
Playing puppet Stayman, would you have bid it differently?

5-4 S-H is a problem with standard methods.
A way round it is to respond 3D with 3 or 4 spades and/or 4 hearts. Over
3D, 3H shows no interest or 4 spades, 3S shows 4H and 3N shows 4-4 in
the majors.
Over the 3H response opener bids 3S with 4 and 3N otherwise. Over 3N
responder knows there are 4H or 3S opposite so can continue to 4H to
show 5-4.
Note that with no interest responder bids 3H then 3N.

...

Muppet stayman gives a way round this problem by interchanging the
3H and 3N responses. Now 3N shows 5H and 3H says no 4cM or 5cM.
Over 3H one can bid 3S to show the 5S+4H hand.
This also leaves 2N-3H-3S and 2N-3S to play with.

If you are confident about your memory you can play
2N-3S is either just a puppet to 3N or, if you bid 4m next,
it shows a 1 suited slam try in the bid minor.
This frees 2N-3N to be minor suit stayman (see what I mean about
being confident about your memory - I forgot it in the interstate event
a few years ago and refused to use it ever again!)

doug

[RonKalf]

Post by Michelle Steiner
None vul. match points
Partner opens 2NT in fourth seat (20-21 HCP). You hold
JT864
AQ95
7
J63
I bid 2C (puppet Stayman), and bid 3H over partner's 3D response,
showing longer spades (ostensibly four of them) than hearts, and then
bid 4H over partner's 3NT bid.
Playing puppet Stayman, would you have bid it differently?

The Puppet Stayman that I know is 3D= at least 1 4crd M. If mot S then
obviously H. You're ok.

[Lorne]

Post by RonKalf
The Puppet Stayman that I know is 3D= at least 1 4crd M. If mot S then
obviously H. You're ok.

That is standard but it fails to play in a 5-3 spade fit when opener is
(say) 3325 shape unless you give up on finding a 4-4 heart fit or risk
getting to a major when opener is 23 in the majors.

[jogs]

Post by Lorne

Post by RonKalf
The Puppet Stayman that I know is 3D= at least 1 4crd M. If mot S then
obviously H. You're ok.

That is standard but it fails to play in a 5-3 spade fit when opener is
(say) 3325 shape unless you give up on finding a 4-4 heart fit or risk
getting to a major when opener is 23 in the majors.

Yes, there is no bidding methods which can account for every possible hand pattern. It's always too many possible hand types. Too few possible bidding sequences available to distinguish between them all. We all attempt to find the methods which would have the fewest hands falling through the cracks.

[Co Wiersma]

Post by jogs

Post by Lorne

Post by RonKalf
The Puppet Stayman that I know is 3D= at least 1 4crd M. If mot S then
obviously H. You're ok.

That is standard but it fails to play in a 5-3 spade fit when opener is
(say) 3325 shape unless you give up on finding a 4-4 heart fit or risk
getting to a major when opener is 23 in the majors.

Yes, there is no bidding methods which can account for every possible hand pattern. It's always too many possible hand types. Too few possible bidding sequences available to distinguish between them all. We all attempt to find the methods which would have the fewest hands falling through the cracks.

...

Yes there is a bidding method known at least in The Netherlands for this
situation
I think its invented by Chris Niemeyer
Or else he just described it.

Anyway, the solution is to bid 3NT the first round with 5-4 in spades/hearts
Of cause that is big risk if either one forgets....

Co Wiersma

[Barry Margolin]

Post by Michelle Steiner
None vul. match points
Partner opens 2NT in fourth seat (20-21 HCP). You hold
JT864
AQ95
7
J63
I bid 2C (puppet Stayman), and bid 3H over partner's 3D response,
showing longer spades (ostensibly four of them) than hearts, and then
bid 4H over partner's 3NT bid.
Playing puppet Stayman, would you have bid it differently?

What you can do is bid 3S over 3D, showing 4 hearts and ostensibly
denying spades. If opener's suit is hearts, he'll bid 4H, and you'll be
in your 4-4 fit. If his suit was spades, he'll bid 3NT, and you can
correct to 4S, which clarifies that you had this kind of hand.

But I guess it works either way. If you bid 3H, he'll bid 3S if his suit
is spades, and you can raise; with a little stronger hand, you might
even splinter in diamonds. If his suit was hearts, he'll bid 3NT, and
you can go back to 4H.

Either way, bridge logic makes it clear that you had a Smolen-type hand,
which normal Puppet Stayman doesn't handle very well (there are a number
of variants that provide ways to show this directly).

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Barry Margolin
Either way, bridge logic makes it clear that you had a Smolen-type hand,
which normal Puppet Stayman doesn't handle very well (there are a number
of variants that provide ways to show this directly).

After reading the suggestion about Muppet Stayman, I suggested it to my
principal partner (not the one I was playing with yesterday, BTW, but
he happened to be my LHO, so he was familiar with the hand.)

We've agreed to try Muppet Stayman, but with responder bidding 3NT with
a five-card spade suit over 3H, and 3S with fewer than 5 spades.
Either way, opener can correct and play the hand.

[p***@infi.net]

Post by Michelle Steiner
None vul. match points
Partner opens 2NT in fourth seat (20-21 HCP). You hold
JT864
AQ95
7
J63
I bid 2C (puppet Stayman), and bid 3H over partner's 3D response,
showing longer spades (ostensibly four of them) than hearts, and then
bid 4H over partner's 3NT bid.
Playing puppet Stayman, would you have bid it differently?

I would not insist on four of a major with this hand -- you have no assurance of a fit. Even with 5-5 you can't be sure partner isn't 2-2. But this hand illustrates what I don't like about Puppet: it interferes with responder's 5-4 hands, chasing instead a 5-3 fit with opener which might play just as well at notrump (and if not, opener had the option to open his major rather than 2NT anyway.)

So, no, I would've shown both majors and given up on the possible 5-3 spade fit.

[[e-mail]]

Post by p***@infi.net

Post by Michelle Steiner
None vul. match points
Partner opens 2NT in fourth seat (20-21 HCP). You hold
JT864
AQ95
7
J63
I bid 2C (puppet Stayman), and bid 3H over partner's 3D response,
showing longer spades (ostensibly four of them) than hearts, and then
bid 4H over partner's 3NT bid.
Playing puppet Stayman, would you have bid it differently?

I would not insist on four of a major with this hand -- you have no assurance of a fit. Even with 5-5 you can't be sure partner isn't 2-2. But this hand illustrates what I don't like about Puppet: it interferes with responder's 5-4 hands, chasing instead a 5-3 fit with opener which might play just as well at notrump (and if not, opener had the option to open his major rather than 2NT anyway.)
So, no, I would've shown both majors and given up on the possible 5-3 spade fit.

...

Is no one worried about reaching 3NT when opener has only one diamond stopper (or less)?

In that case, you should play a 5-2 spade fit, in my opinion.

Carl

[Barry Margolin]

Post by p***@infi.net

Post by Michelle Steiner
None vul. match points
Partner opens 2NT in fourth seat (20-21 HCP). You hold
JT864
AQ95
7
J63
I bid 2C (puppet Stayman), and bid 3H over partner's 3D response,
showing longer spades (ostensibly four of them) than hearts, and then
bid 4H over partner's 3NT bid.
Playing puppet Stayman, would you have bid it differently?

I would not insist on four of a major with this hand -- you have no assurance
of a fit.

Partner bid 3D, showing at least one 4-card major. So you have either an
8- or 9-card fit.

It sounds like you missed that she said Puppet Stayman (twice). Or you
have a different understanding of Puppet Stayman than most players.

[smn]

Post by Michelle Steiner
None vul. match points
Partner opens 2NT in fourth seat (20-21 HCP). You hold
JT864
AQ95
7
J63
I bid 2C (puppet Stayman), and bid 3H over partner's 3D response,
showing longer spades (ostensibly four of them) than hearts, and then
bid 4H over partner's 3NT bid.
Playing puppet Stayman, would you have bid it differently?

Hello , The well known Netherlands Bridge program called Jack ;has a version called Dutch puppet stayman which solves this problem (Smollen + puppet Stayman .You just give up 2n-3n to play and bid 2n-3c (puppet Stayman) -3n even with no 4 card major . This frees 2n-3n to show 5 spades and 4 hearts .
With my 3 partners in the wilds of Oregon we also have a way to show 5 hearts and 4 spades .Transfer to Hearts -2n-3d-3h- and bid 3n to show 5 hearts and 4 spades ;2n-3h-3s shows 5 hearts but denies 4 spades .This method is well tested and works very well ;We use it for opening 2n (20-21) and 2c-2d-2n (22-24) . Cheers ,smn

[codger]

If you are prepared to embrace some complexity you can use,

2NT - 3C
3D No major or both majors
3H Four or five hearts, not four spades
3S Five spades
3NT Four spades, not four hearts

2NT - 3C
3D - 3H 'Smolen' - 5=4 or no major (route to 3NT only)
3S 'Smolen' - 4=5
3NT One or both 4-card majors

2NT - 3C
3D - 3NT
4C "Transfer to your major"

2NT - 3C
3H - 3S 3 hearts

There are significant benefits for the weight carried: opener declares all major fits and it caters for both responder's 5=4 and 4=5. This is especially valuable if you play "complete with support" after 2NT - 3D/H (because 2NT - 3D; 3NT precludes finding spades and requiring opener to volunteer spades to cater for a rare hand-type leaks information).

Method devised by Edward Lockhart and demonstrated as optimal - to the extent that is how we refer to it.