What does a bid of a new minor mean after a jump shift?

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs game, Both Vulnerable.
Style is "Standard" 2/1.
S: Q65
H: JT973
D: 98
C: KQ2
Partner opens 1D, you bid 1H, partner jumps to 2S. What do you play 3C as meaning?
A. Same as a new minor forcing response, with three hearts partner is expected to bid 3H.
B. An ask for a club stopper, if so then go to NT. What would you expect partner to do with AJ of clubs and AQx of hearts?
C. Would a bid of 3H rather than 3C guarantee six hearts in your way of thinking?

Isn't the 2S bid game forcing?
Why don't I just bid 2NT and show the club stoppers and let
the auction develop naturally.

doug

P***@yahoo.com

2016-08-10 03:15:24 UTC

Isn't the 2S bid game forcing?
Why don't I just bid 2NT and show the club stoppers and let
the auction develop naturally.
doug

Yes, 2S is game forcing. 2N seems reasonable, but what would 3C mean to you?

Douglas Newlands

2016-08-10 04:03:57 UTC

Isn't the 2S bid game forcing?
Why don't I just bid 2NT and show the club stoppers and let
the auction develop naturally.
doug

Yes, 2S is game forcing. 2N seems reasonable, but what would 3C mean to you?

3C would be asking partner to do something sensible in light
of the fact that I haven't made any other possible bid.
It probably shows either a partial stopper or 4 small clubs.

doug

Tom

2016-08-11 00:11:33 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs game, Both Vulnerable.
Style is "Standard" 2/1.
S: Q65
H: JT973
D: 98
C: KQ2
Partner opens 1D, you bid 1H, partner jumps to 2S. What do you play 3C as meaning?
A. Same as a new minor forcing response, with three hearts partner
is expected to bid 3H.
B. An ask for a club stopper, if so then go to NT. What would you
expect partner to do with AJ of clubs and AQx of hearts?
C. Would a bid of 3H rather than 3C guarantee six hearts in your way of thinking?

Isn't the 2S bid game forcing?
Why don't I just bid 2NT and show the club stoppers and let
the auction develop naturally.
doug

Yes, 2S is game forcing. 2N seems reasonable, but what would 3C mean to you?

3C would be asking partner to do something sensible in light
of the fact that I haven't made any other possible bid.
It probably shows either a partial stopper or 4 small clubs.
doug

3C could, probably should also show 4Hs and 5+Cs - warning pard of a
misfit.

Tom Reid

jogs

2016-08-11 13:40:08 UTC

Post by Tom
3C could, probably should also show 4Hs and 5+Cs - warning pard of a
misfit.
Tom Reid

Assuming no interest in slam, just bid 3NT. Partner doesn't care about your clubs. Don't we all play our strong misfits in 3NT?

Tom

2016-08-11 00:13:17 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs game, Both Vulnerable.
Style is "Standard" 2/1.
S: Q65
H: JT973
D: 98
C: KQ2
Partner opens 1D, you bid 1H, partner jumps to 2S. What do you play 3C as meaning?
A. Same as a new minor forcing response, with three hearts partner
is expected to bid 3H.
B. An ask for a club stopper, if so then go to NT. What would you
expect partner to do with AJ of clubs and AQx of hearts?
C. Would a bid of 3H rather than 3C guarantee six hearts in your way of thinking?

Isn't the 2S bid game forcing?
Why don't I just bid 2NT and show the club stoppers and let
the auction develop naturally.
doug

Yes, 2S is game forcing. 2N seems reasonable, but what would 3C mean to you?

3C would be asking partner to do something sensible in light
of the fact that I haven't made any other possible bid.
It probably shows either a partial stopper or 4 small clubs.
doug

Hit enter too quick. Sorry. On this hand, I would bid 3C to show
stoppers.

t***@att.net

2016-08-10 04:01:25 UTC

I've seen this played as a concentration of Honors and support for Opener's first suit.

Ronald

2016-08-10 09:03:56 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs game, Both Vulnerable.
Style is "Standard" 2/1.
S: Q65
H: JT973
D: 98
C: KQ2
Partner opens 1D, you bid 1H, partner jumps to 2S. What do you play 3C as meaning?
A. Same as a new minor forcing response, with three hearts partner is expected to bid 3H.
B. An ask for a club stopper, if so then go to NT. What would you expect
partner to do with AJ of clubs and AQx of hearts?
C. Would a bid of 3H rather than 3C guarantee six hearts in your way of thinking?
Thanks!

I play 2S as a splinter raise to 3H. An alternative would be an extremely
seldom 6-5. Standard likes to easte bidding space, so I assume 2S is FG and
4crd S. Does it even say something about D? I would expect 3C as "I don't
know what else I can bid". Your question just show the folly of wasting
precious bidding space. The hand given is an easy 2N for me.

--
Ronald

KWSchneider

2016-08-10 18:57:15 UTC

Post by Ronald
I play 2S as a splinter raise to 3H. An alternative would be an extremely
seldom 6-5. Standard likes to easte bidding space, so I assume 2S is FG and
4crd S. Does it even say something about D? I would expect 3C as "I don't
know what else I can bid". Your question just show the folly of wasting
precious bidding space. The hand given is an easy 2N for me.

I like this treatment. I've always espoused the concept of 1m-1H-1S being absolutely forcing. I had an auction holding AKx x Axx AKxxxx after 1C 1H, where I bid 1S and we found the Moysian 6S slam when partner came down with QJxx xxxxx x Qxx.

The use of 2S after a 1H response to show a "mini-splinter" is a great concept. which I presume is extended to 3C as well (after 1D opening), by making 2C absolutely forcing.

Kurt

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Player

2016-08-10 10:14:51 UTC

Playing your system I would bid 2NT. 3C would ask for 3 card H support.
Hate the system by the way.

P***@yahoo.com

2016-08-10 11:02:50 UTC

Playing your system I would bid 2NT. 3C would ask for 3 card H support.
Hate the system by the way.

I'm open to suggestions as to a better system. Partner's hand is:

S: AK98
H: Q64
D: AK643
C: A

How would you bid that?

Player

2016-08-10 11:32:26 UTC

Playing your system I would bid 2NT. 3C would ask for 3 card H support.
Hate the system by the way.

S: AK98
H: Q64
D: AK643
C: A
How would you bid that?

S: Q65
H: JT973
D: 98
C: KQ2

1D 1H
1S 1NT
2C 2D
3H 4H

For me 1S is forcing and 2S is a splimit bid.

s***@gmail.com

2016-08-11 19:18:51 UTC

Playing your system I would bid 2NT. 3C would ask for 3 card H support.
Hate the system by the way.

S: AK98
H: Q64
D: AK643
C: A
How would you bid that?

S: Q65
H: JT973
D: 98
C: KQ2
1D 1H
1S 1NT
2C 2D
3H 4H
For me 1S is forcing and 2S is a splimit bid.

2C????? How about a simple and direct 3H? However, this being said, 1NT is crazy for a rebid with 20 HCP's. You have a game forcing hand after the response of 1H, and 1NT shows all of a decent 12 count.

p***@infi.net

2016-08-12 19:21:15 UTC

Post by s***@gmail.com

Playing your system I would bid 2NT. 3C would ask for 3 card H support.
Hate the system by the way.

S: AK98
H: Q64
D: AK643
C: A
How would you bid that?

S: Q65
H: JT973
D: 98
C: KQ2
1D 1H
1S 1NT
2C 2D
3H 4H
For me 1S is forcing and 2S is a splimit bid.

No, the 1NT was by responder with 9 hcp. Opener rebid a (forcing by agreement) 1S but I don't know why 2C on the third round would be forcing, perhaps it's a gadget bid.

Tom

2016-08-11 00:21:35 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs game, Both Vulnerable.
Style is "Standard" 2/1.
S: Q65
H: JT973
D: 98
C: KQ2
Partner opens 1D, you bid 1H, partner jumps to 2S. What do you play 3C as meaning?
A. Same as a new minor forcing response, with three hearts partner
is expected to bid 3H.
B. An ask for a club stopper, if so then go to NT. What would you
expect partner to do with AJ of clubs and AQx of hearts?
C. Would a bid of 3H rather than 3C guarantee six hearts in your way of thinking?
Thanks!

Playing your system I would bid 2NT. 3C would ask for 3 card H
support. Hate the system by the way.

S: AK98
H: Q64
D: AK643
C: A
How would you bid that?

1D - 1H
2S - 2N
3H - 4H
- 2nd best contract probably since you will make 5NT unless they lead a
D.

s***@gmail.com

2016-08-11 19:15:20 UTC

Playing your system I would bid 2NT. 3C would ask for 3 card H support.
Hate the system by the way.

S: AK98
H: Q64
D: AK643
C: A
How would you bid that?

Over 2NT, partner completes his description with 3H, showing real 3 card support. Since your heart are poor, and you have too much club waste, you are not making any slam move. A simple 4H ends the auction. Too bad that 3NT may be a better spot.

Barry Margolin

2016-08-10 16:03:07 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs game, Both Vulnerable.
Style is "Standard" 2/1.
S: Q65
H: JT973
D: 98
C: KQ2
Partner opens 1D, you bid 1H, partner jumps to 2S. What do you play 3C as meaning?
A. Same as a new minor forcing response, with three hearts partner is expected to bid 3H.
B. An ask for a club stopper, if so then go to NT. What would you expect
partner to do with AJ of clubs and AQx of hearts?
C. Would a bid of 3H rather than 3C guarantee six hearts in your way of thinking?

3C the 4th suit, not new minor (since the same issue exists with the
auction 1C-1D-2H-2S). Even when you're already in a GF auction, you can
use 4th Suit Forcing as a temporizing bid, allowing opener to further
describe his hand. It tends to deny club stoppers, since you can bid 2NT
to show that, and partner can still show 3-card heart support after that.

If I bid 3C, I expect partner to respond as follows:

1. Bid 3H with 3 hearts, else
2. Bid 3NT with clubs stopped, else
3. Bid 3S with 5S-6D, else
4. Bid 3D.

--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA

jogs

2016-08-10 16:24:59 UTC

In article

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs game, Both Vulnerable.
Style is "Standard" 2/1.
S: Q65
H: JT973
D: 98
C: KQ2
Partner opens 1D, you bid 1H, partner jumps to 2S. What do you play 3C as meaning?
A. Same as a new minor forcing response, with three hearts partner is
expected to bid 3H.
B. An ask for a club stopper, if so then go to NT. What would you expect
partner to do with AJ of clubs and AQx of hearts?
C. Would a bid of 3H rather than 3C guarantee six hearts in your way of thinking?

I think 4SF shouldn't apply on a forcing to game auction. 3C should at least imply the club ace.
And I agree with Kalf and player 2S is better as splinter.
1D-1H, 1S Partner isn't passing very often. And if partner does pass he probably has 5 or less.
1D-1H, 2S. Partner didn't have 4=2=5=2 with about 19 HCP did he? He should bid 1S.

Your hand has only one control. Not suitable for slam. I would respond 3NT, fast arrival.

Co Wiersma

2016-08-10 17:11:10 UTC

Post by jogs
I think 4SF shouldn't apply on a forcing to game auction.

Why not?
Just because it has the word "forcing" in it?

Post by jogs
3C should at least imply the club ace.

why?

Post by jogs
And I agree with Kalf and player 2S is better as splinter.
1D-1H, 1S Partner isn't passing very often. And if partner does pass he probably has 5 or less.
1D-1H, 2S. Partner didn't have 4=2=5=2 with about 19 HCP did he? He should bid 1S.
Your hand has only one control. Not suitable for slam. I would respond 3NT, fast arrival.

jogs

2016-08-10 20:02:51 UTC

Post by jogs
3C should at least imply the club ace.

why?

Opener has shown at least 5-4 in diamonds/spades, therefore he has little interest in clubs as the final strain. Aces are nearly always useful in a side suit. Kings are useful whenever opener holds two in that suit. I only cue a king when I hold an ace in partner's suit.
S AKQx H x D KQJxxx C Ax
Opener has the CA. He knows I have cued CK and by inference hold the DA(or HA).

Co Wiersma

2016-08-10 22:47:08 UTC

Post by jogs

Post by jogs
3C should at least imply the club ace.

why?

Of cause you do not want to play clubs.
But why is 3C a cue and not simply an attempt to find the best spot? So
3NT or hearts or diamonds?

So in effect my question "why is it not 4thsf" still stands

Co Wiersma

jogs

2016-08-11 02:30:17 UTC

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by jogs

Post by jogs
3C should at least imply the club ace.

why?

Of cause you do not want to play clubs.
But why is 3C a cue and not simply an attempt to find the best spot? So
3NT or hearts or diamonds?
So in effect my question "why is it not 4thsf" still stands
Co Wiersma

3C being a cue is the best way to find the best spot.
Why is the weak hand taking control with 4SF?

Co Wiersma

2016-08-13 01:59:18 UTC

Post by jogs
3C should at least imply the club ace.

why?

Of cause you do not want to play clubs.
But why is 3C a cue and not simply an attempt to find the best spot? So
3NT or hearts or diamonds?
So in effect my question "why is it not 4thsf" still stands
Co Wiersma

3C being a cue is the best way to find the best spot.
Why is the weak hand taking control with 4SF?

Because in this sequence
as so often
at some point, we need to find out what is the best game

Besides, it seems to me you also let the weak hand take control with
starting to cue.

Co Wiersma

KWSchneider

2016-08-10 16:36:15 UTC

Assuming the auction is already GF (JS in standard 2/1), a new minor would:

a) deny interest in a 3N contract, else 2N
b) imply interest in a spade slam with club help.

Something like: QTxx Axxxx - KQxx. You can't splinter the void.

Kurt

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Co Wiersma

2016-08-10 17:22:51 UTC

Post by KWSchneider

a) deny interest in a 3N contract, else 2N
b) imply interest in a spade slam with club help.
Something like: QTxx Axxxx - KQxx. You can't splinter the void.
Kurt

What you do with a hand like
Qxx
Qxxxx
xx
Axx
?
If you bid 2N, you may well have wrongsided the 3N contract

Or with
Axx
Jxxxx
xx
J10x
Where you do not know what suit (if any) you want to play in
But half a stopper , even a stiff K or Q (in openers hand), may well
give play for 3NT

Co Wiersma

KWSchneider

2016-08-10 19:10:12 UTC

Post by Co Wiersma
What you do with a hand like
Qxx
Qxxxx
xx
Axx
?
If you bid 2N, you may well have wrongsided the 3N contract
Or with
Axx
Jxxxx
xx
J10x
Where you do not know what suit (if any) you want to play in
But half a stopper , even a stiff K or Q (in openers hand), may well
give play for 3NT

Your concerns coupled with Barry's suggestions make more sense, certainly for MP. I'll withdraw my previous opinion.

Kurt

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s***@gmail.com

2016-08-11 19:10:47 UTC

I play 3C as a game force, but a poor call no matter how you play it. 2NT is just fine, and it is not going to be passed. Partner will have a fine picture of your hand type and values, and the lead will be into your hand. Partner has no cards to protect on this auction.

Steve Willner

2016-08-18 01:19:08 UTC