The weirdest bidding sequence I've seen

[ais523]

I was West, and dealer. Here's my hand:

S AT
H KT972
D K3
C KQ64

W N E S
1H P 1S P
3C 2H[1] 3C P
P 3H[2] P P
?

[1] Insufficient bid; East accepted it
[2] Not alerted; when I asked, South seemed as confused as I was

I think under the alerting regulations we were using (the EBU's), 3H
should have been alterted regardless of what it meant (but I'm not sure;
it wouldn't surprise me if this particular bidding sequence had never
happened before, so who's to know what the normal meaning of the bid
is?). The lack of alert (and fact that South passed it) implied to me
that South was taking it as natural, though.

My 3C showed a hand with enough strength for a strong reverse (but was
not game forcing over a 1-level response); about 16 points or so (my
actual hand was a minimum for the bid), 5+ hearts, 4+ clubs. East's 3C
was, unsurprisingly, undiscussed.

What would you have bid with my hand in this situation?

[Ars Ivci]

Post by ais523
S AT
H KT972
D K3
C KQ64
W N E S
1H P 1S P
3C 2H[1] 3C P
P 3H[2] P P
?
[1] Insufficient bid; East accepted it
[2] Not alerted; when I asked, South seemed as confused as I was
I think under the alerting regulations we were using (the EBU's), 3H
should have been alterted regardless of what it meant (but I'm not sure;
it wouldn't surprise me if this particular bidding sequence had never
happened before, so who's to know what the normal meaning of the bid
is?). The lack of alert (and fact that South passed it) implied to me
that South was taking it as natural, though.
My 3C showed a hand with enough strength for a strong reverse (but was
not game forcing over a 1-level response); about 16 points or so (my
actual hand was a minimum for the bid), 5+ hearts, 4+ clubs. East's 3C
was, unsurprisingly, undiscussed.
What would you have bid with my hand in this situation?

2C; over 1S, that is. Your hand is not strong enough to reverse, even if
you played something like Precision.
I'd pass now.

[ais523]

Post by ais523
My 3C showed a hand with enough strength for a strong reverse (but was
not game forcing over a 1-level response); about 16 points or so (my
actual hand was a minimum for the bid), 5+ hearts, 4+ clubs.

And to forestall the obvious question: I know that this isn't a reverse
(clubs is lower-ranking than hearts), it was just simplest to have
a notion of "reverse strength" that's used throughout the system
(and thus jump shift rebids and reverses are equally strong in the
system).

[David Goldfarb]

Post by ais523
S AT
H KT972
D K3
C KQ64
W N E S
1H P 1S P
3C 2H[1] 3C P
P 3H[2] P P
?
[1] Insufficient bid; East accepted it
[2] Not alerted; when I asked, South seemed as confused as I was
My 3C showed a hand with enough strength for a strong reverse (but was
not game forcing over a 1-level response); about 16 points or so (my
actual hand was a minimum for the bid), 5+ hearts, 4+ clubs. East's 3C
was, unsurprisingly, undiscussed.
What would you have bid with my hand in this situation?

I am curious about the form of scoring, and the vulnerability. But
in practice they probably don't change my decision to pass.
Partner has indicated enough club support to want to bid 3C
but not 4. Partner could have made a penalty double, and didn't.
I've told my story.

[ais523]

Post by David Goldfarb

Post by ais523
S AT
H KT972
D K3
C KQ64
W N E S
1H P 1S P
3C 2H[1] 3C P
P 3H[2] P P
?
[1] Insufficient bid; East accepted it
[2] Not alerted; when I asked, South seemed as confused as I was
My 3C showed a hand with enough strength for a strong reverse (but was
not game forcing over a 1-level response); about 16 points or so (my
actual hand was a minimum for the bid), 5+ hearts, 4+ clubs. East's 3C
was, unsurprisingly, undiscussed.
What would you have bid with my hand in this situation?

I am curious about the form of scoring, and the vulnerability.

Sorry. Matchpoints, none vulnerable.

[Co Wiersma]

Post by David Goldfarb

Post by ais523
S AT
H KT972
D K3
C KQ64
W N E S
1H P 1S P
3C 2H[1] 3C P
P 3H[2] P P
?
[1] Insufficient bid; East accepted it
[2] Not alerted; when I asked, South seemed as confused as I was
My 3C showed a hand with enough strength for a strong reverse (but was
not game forcing over a 1-level response); about 16 points or so (my
actual hand was a minimum for the bid), 5+ hearts, 4+ clubs. East's 3C
was, unsurprisingly, undiscussed.
What would you have bid with my hand in this situation?

I am curious about the form of scoring, and the vulnerability. But
in practice they probably don't change my decision to pass.
Partner has indicated enough club support to want to bid 3C
but not 4. Partner could have made a penalty double, and didn't.
I've told my story.

[Co Wiersma]

Post by David Goldfarb

Post by ais523
S AT
H KT972
D K3
C KQ64
W     N     E     S
1H    P     1S    P
3C    2H[1] 3C    P
P     3H[2] P     P
?
[1] Insufficient bid; East accepted it
[2] Not alerted; when I asked, South seemed as confused as I was
My 3C showed a hand with enough strength for a strong reverse (but was
not game forcing over a 1-level response); about 16 points or so (my
actual hand was a minimum for the bid), 5+ hearts, 4+ clubs. East's 3C
was, unsurprisingly, undiscussed.
What would you have bid with my hand in this situation?

I am curious about the form of scoring, and the vulnerability. But
in practice they probably don't change my decision to pass.
Partner has indicated enough club support to want to bid 3C
but not 4. Partner could have made a penalty double, and didn't.
I've told my story.

Sorry for empty post
I think your reasoning is sound
Partner likely has a very weak hand with club support

Co Wiersma

[Lorne]

Post by ais523
S AT
H KT972
D K3
C KQ64
W N E S
1H P 1S P
3C 2H[1] 3C P
P 3H[2] P P
?
[1] Insufficient bid; East accepted it
[2] Not alerted; when I asked, South seemed as confused as I was
I think under the alerting regulations we were using (the EBU's), 3H
should have been alterted regardless of what it meant (but I'm not sure;
it wouldn't surprise me if this particular bidding sequence had never
happened before, so who's to know what the normal meaning of the bid
is?). The lack of alert (and fact that South passed it) implied to me
that South was taking it as natural, though.
My 3C showed a hand with enough strength for a strong reverse (but was
not game forcing over a 1-level response); about 16 points or so (my
actual hand was a minimum for the bid), 5+ hearts, 4+ clubs. East's 3C
was, unsurprisingly, undiscussed.
What would you have bid with my hand in this situation?

3H is not alertable if it shows hearts.

Your 3C is probably alertable as it has an unexpected meaning (ie I do
not know anybody who does not play it as a game force).

Playing MP's I would double as it seems unlikely declarer will ever get
to dummy so even if north has a rock crusher with a void club and 7
hearts you still look like you have 5 tricks (1D+3H+1S) and partner may
have another to get it 2 off.

[ais523]

Post by Lorne

Post by ais523
S AT
H KT972
D K3
C KQ64
W N E S
1H P 1S P
3C 2H[1] 3C P
P 3H[2] P P
?
[1] Insufficient bid; East accepted it
[2] Not alerted; when I asked, South seemed as confused as I was

[snip]

Post by Lorne
3H is not alertable if it shows hearts.

It's not alertable if a) it shows hearts, and b) the expected meaning is
to show hearts. I'm not so sure on b) here (I was quite surprised
when the partnership apparently took it as natural, although I guess
it's even harder to think of a sensible artificial meaning).

Post by Lorne
Your 3C is probably alertable as it has an unexpected meaning (ie I do
not know anybody who does not play it as a game force).

After consulting sources on Acol, this is apparently correct (in that
the modern Acol meaning would be a game force). It seems strange to me
to treat the reverse and jump-rebid differently, though, given that
they both have a very similar impact on the resulting bidding space (and
given that it would only be a round force if East's bid was 1NT rather
than 1S).

In general I'm not a fan of "unexpected meaning" alerting rules, as they
effectively force you to learn two systems: a) the system you're
actually playing, b) the "expected meaning" system (which can be very
complicated sometimes, as seen in this example!). "1H, 1S; 3C is a
game force, but 1H, 1NT; 3C and 1C, 1S; 2H are round forces" is not a
simple or logical rule at all, and it's effectively been "implied into"
the alerting system. 1H, 2D; 3C would of course be game-forcing because
2D shows additional strength, but that consideration doesn't apply in
any of the other sequences. So I'm effectively being forced to memorise
a bidding system that I don't play because it's too complex, just to
be able to play a bidding system that's simpler!

(I once threatened to create a bidding system where all bids were
alertable in order to make life easier on new players, so that they
wouldn't have to learn an excessively complex bidding system simply to
know when to alert.)

Post by Lorne
Playing MP's I would double as it seems unlikely declarer will ever get
to dummy so even if north has a rock crusher with a void club and 7
hearts you still look like you have 5 tricks (1D+3H+1S) and partner may
have another to get it 2 off.

In retrospect, I believe this is the correct answer. My opinion on the
hand is that a) partner is showing a weak hand with a club fit, that may
have strained for the 1S response (otherwise, why accept the
insufficient bid?), so b) we don't have game anywhere, and 4C probably
doesn't make either, but c) it's probably nonetheless our hand, and
South hasn't shown any strength, so the opponents are likely too high
and we should double.

As it happens, East's hand was:

S KJ875
H 8
D J7
C T9532

I can easily see why East didn't double on that hand, but the contract
went two down (spades are 3-3 onside). So presumably it's West's job to
do the doubling on this hand.

[Lorne]

Post by ais523

Post by Lorne
Your 3C is probably alertable as it has an unexpected meaning (ie I do
not know anybody who does not play it as a game force).

After consulting sources on Acol, this is apparently correct (in that
the modern Acol meaning would be a game force). It seems strange to me
to treat the reverse and jump-rebid differently, though, given that
they both have a very similar impact on the resulting bidding space (and
given that it would only be a round force if East's bid was 1NT rather
than 1S).

There is a reason for the difference between a reverse and the jump rebid.

After a reverse many good players play 2N (or the loweer of 2N and 4th
suit) as artificial saying they are minimum and want to stop short of
game but no such luxury exists after a jump rebid.

Hence after 1D - 1S; 2H you can stop in 2S by bidding it or in 3D by
bidding 2N first, but any 3 level bid is game forcing allowing 3D to
show interest in 6D if you have that hand (ie no need to jump and bypass
3N which may be the spot if opener is minimum).

However after 1H - 1S; 3C it does not make sense to play 3H or 3S as not
forcing since with no fit and a minimum hand (say 4243 shape) responder
has to bid 3N leaving you with the silly situation that you end up in
game with no fit but can stop short of it with a fit and have to bid 4th
suit to start a slam try when partner does not know which suit you have
a fit for or you might have no fit but fancy 3N if he has a useful
diamond card. Also with some values and 5 spades responder can't offer
a choice of games with 3S so has to guess the final contract. 3C should
typically be 18+ pts and 2C should not be passed with any kind of fit
and 8 pts.

[Player]

Post by ais523
S AT
H KT972
D K3
C KQ64
W N E S
1H P 1S P
3C 2H[1] 3C P
P 3H[2] P P
?
[1] Insufficient bid; East accepted it
[2] Not alerted; when I asked, South seemed as confused as I was
I think under the alerting regulations we were using (the EBU's), 3H
should have been alterted regardless of what it meant (but I'm not sure;
it wouldn't surprise me if this particular bidding sequence had never
happened before, so who's to know what the normal meaning of the bid
is?). The lack of alert (and fact that South passed it) implied to me
that South was taking it as natural, though.
My 3C showed a hand with enough strength for a strong reverse (but was
not game forcing over a 1-level response); about 16 points or so (my
actual hand was a minimum for the bid), 5+ hearts, 4+ clubs. East's 3C
was, unsurprisingly, undiscussed.
What would you have bid with my hand in this situation?
--
ais523

The bidding is quite poor. Firstly, playing a strong NT I would have opened 1NT. Secondly, 3C is a gross overbid. This is a 2C bid. In the present situation I pass.