can it be played properly

[Douglas Newlands]

Teams, EW vul, Dealer N
You are NS holding

A106
4
K643
KJ982


KJ72
AQ6
AQ7
A64

and you bid something like

W N E S
1♣ P 1♥
2♥ P P 6NT
all pass

1C is most often 11-13 balanced but also has hands with real clubs.
1H is a transfer and 2H is natural.
6N is simply bidding what you think you will make.

West leads the DJ which you win with the ace.
You play a spade to the ace and lead the S10 which holds.
Are we going well? What card do we play next?

doug

[Travis Crump]

Post by Douglas Newlands
Teams, EW vul, Dealer N
You are NS holding
A106
4
K643
KJ982
KJ72
AQ6
AQ7
A64
and you bid something like
W N E S
1♣ P 1♥
2♥ P P 6NT
all pass
1C is most often 11-13 balanced but also has hands with real clubs.
1H is a transfer and 2H is natural.
6N is simply bidding what you think you will make.
West leads the DJ which you win with the ace.
You play a spade to the ace and lead the S10 which holds.
Are we going well? What card do we play next?
doug

I repeat the spade finesse. If it loses I'm in the same boat as if LHO
had just won the first finesse so I'll just shrug my shoulders. Assuming
it wins, I'll play club to the K and run the C8. Only problem is if LHO
shows out. At that point I'll try to either cash diamonds or endplay LHO
in hearts with the fourth diamond.

[Berti Rupsli]

Post by Douglas Newlands
Teams, EW vul, Dealer N
You are NS holding
A106
4
K643
KJ982
KJ72
AQ6
AQ7
A64
and you bid something like
W N E S
1♣ P 1♥
2♥ P P 6NT
all pass
1C is most often 11-13 balanced but also has hands with real clubs.
1H is a transfer and 2H is natural.
6N is simply bidding what you think you will make.
West leads the DJ which you win with the ace.
You play a spade to the ace and lead the S10 which holds.
Are we going well? What card do we play next?
doug

The direct jump to 6NT should be telling to oppts, it's a kind of gamble. So they might try to make my "guessing" difficult...
Why did S10 "hold"? Possibly West held-up, being left with Qx...; or East did not cover, then I'll still be able to finesse S lateron; maybe it finally even turns out 3-3 and oppts want to puzzle me...
Anyhow I'll treat East as the "dangerous oppt" (avoiding a H lead), remove all of West's D (if 4-2 letting the 4th run to West); or if 2-4 with East then I'd attack C by playing C8 and would let it run to West (assuming CQ and C10 are not in the same hand).
West must then return H, or S, or C which all seem to solve problems; ... or S or D were 3-3...; or C behave "nice" (at least 3-2 or 2-3)...

Berti

[Robert Chance]

To some extent, my line would depend upon the actual cards EW have played in spades (if W has played two small spades, taking the spade finesse again is playing E to have ducked from Q98x).

My instinct is to play the JC from dummy at trick 4 and run it assuming E playes low. This is something of a disaster if W holds a stiff Q, but otherwise brings the suit in for four tricks (assuming W is not void). If East wins the club trick and returns a spade, we rise with the ace and have excellent squeeze chances if the queen does not fall. If E wins the club trick and returns a heart, we rise with the ace, run the minor suit winners, and are likely to to be able to read the spade position at trick 12.

If W turns out to have something like Qxxx KJTxx JT Qx, then we congratulate W on a fine defence at the end of the hand (whilst muttering inwardly about whether this really is a 2-level overcall).

[KWSchneider]

Post by Douglas Newlands
Teams, EW vul, Dealer N
You are NS holding
A106
4
K643
KJ982
KJ72
AQ6
AQ7
A64
and you bid something like
W N E S
1â?£ P 1â?¥
2â?¥ P P 6NT
all pass
1C is most often 11-13 balanced but also has hands with real clubs.
1H is a transfer and 2H is natural.
6N is simply bidding what you think you will make.
West leads the DJ which you win with the ace.
You play a spade to the ace and lead the S10 which holds.
Are we going well? What card do we play next?
doug

I assume that:
1) West knows how to bid - hence I expect at least KJxxxxx in hearts and a void in clubs for a vulnerable 4th seat overcall with the few points he has.
2) That he isn't a BOLS defender and ducks with Q98x in spades.
3) That he chose the DJ lead because he has JT9x in diamonds.

So that leaves us with:

West: xx KJTxxxx JT9x -
East: Qxx xx xx QT76x

Playing this DD for 12 tricks involves foregoing more than 3 club tricks, and throwing East in on the 4th diamond for a second heart trick. 4s, 2h, 3d, 3c.

Or so I think...

Kurt

[KWSchneider]

Post by KWSchneider
West: xx KJTxxxx JT9x -
East: Qxx xx xx QT76x
Playing this DD for 12 tricks involves foregoing more than 3 club tricks, and throwing East in on the 4th diamond for a second heart trick. 4s, 2h, 3d, 3c.
Or so I think...

Correction:
xx KJTxxxx JT9x -
Qxxx xx xx QT76x

Misstyped. Missing spade in East.

[Berti Rupsli]

Post by Douglas Newlands
Teams, EW vul, Dealer N
You are NS holding
A106
4
K643
KJ982
KJ72
AQ6
AQ7
A64
and you bid something like
W N E S
1♣ P 1♥
2♥ P P 6NT
all pass
1C is most often 11-13 balanced but also has hands with real clubs.
1H is a transfer and 2H is natural.
6N is simply bidding what you think you will make.
West leads the DJ which you win with the ace.
You play a spade to the ace and lead the S10 which holds.
Are we going well? What card do we play next?
doug

Apart from finding a solution within the "given" framework, I wonder why one would (quote) "...play a spade to the Ace and lead the S10..." here after having won the DA?

You can see 11+20 = 31 HCP. This leaves 9 HCP. For his 2H overcall you must assume West holding H:KJTxx(x), else the overcall would be nonsense. And West led a "strange" looking DJ (WHY??? - doubleton?, singleton?, hardly from J10x(x)?). So that only leaves either SQ or CQ for "disposition" for East.
Would West overcall here after both oppts having bid with a 6cH and 7HCP only? Rather unlikely. And if he did, he would do it knowing his SQ sits "behind" the S bid by South... (So, that leaves maximum CQ for East; if it's within a 4cC then bad luck!)
Thus, you should play West for the SQ, and playing SA at trick two looks like a bad decision!
And further this should unmask West as holding: 5(6)cH + 3(4)cS + 2(1,3)cD + max4cC (likely incl. CQ)...

Berti

[Player]

Firstly West does not have 5h. Secondly why is the d knave lead strange? Stiff j or dbtn jt is out of the question as we are not playing with children. I suspect west has a 3 6 4 0 shape So at this stage we have 10 tricks. We can endplay west with a d for the eleventh but there is no squeeze for the 12th.

[Player]

So east holds 3 3 2 5. Play 4 rounds of s and 3 ds and see what east pitches. Lets say 2 hearts. Cash the h ace to void east of the suit and now play a c to the ace, j of c and duck.

[Berti Rupsli]

Post by Player
So east holds 3 3 2 5. Play 4 rounds of s and 3 ds and see what east pitches. Lets say 2 hearts. Cash the h ace to void east of the suit and now play a c to the ace, j of c and duck.

Ron: Did you intend to show a winning line of play here?
You wrote East holds 3 3 2 5, and you void him of 3xS, 2xD, 1+1+1xH, that leaves him with 5xC (QT753); then you play CA, and CJ ducked into (evidently) East's CQ.
(West is still sitting on H:K... and a "higher" D... - so, no squeeze against West - you have to play it thru North in C)

But, East now being left with C:Txx. North is left with C:K9 and likely C8 (or Dx depending on what he dropped on South's 4th S lead).
So, if East woun't do you the favour of leading CT you'll have to lose another C trick (or the small Dx to West)...

Berti

[Berti Rupsli]

Firstly West does not have 5h. Secondly why is the d knave lead strange? Stiff j or dbtn jt is out of the question as we are not playing with children. I suspect west has a 3 6 4 0 shape...

I'd like to question the following two issues in recent posts:

Kurt assumed West holding: xx KJTxxxx JT9x - .
Shouldn't West then be "EXPECTED" to overcall with 3H instead, which could be "lighter" (here 5HCP only) and "longer" (7cH) than the given 2H overcall...?

Ron suspects West has a 3 6 4 0 shape, and he referred to the DJ lead as (quote): "Stiff j or dbtn jt is out of the question...".

Both of them assume a 4cD (because of the lead?). But would such a "slow" lead make any sense against 6NT? Couldn't a "misguiding" (=short) DJ lead cause more irritation for declarer's planning, considering his "direct" jump to 6NT and all the imponderabilities such a jump might create?

Thanks,
Berti

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by Player
Firstly West does not have 5h. Secondly why is the d knave lead strange? Stiff j or dbtn jt is out of the question as we are not playing with children. I suspect west has a 3 6 4 0 shape So at this stage we have 10 tricks. We can endplay west with a d for the eleventh but there is no squeeze for the 12th.

OK Ron, you have the shape correct but the play is more difficult.
No doubt the double dummy experts will get it right quickly
but it was more difficult at the table.
49 went off in the slam (about a dozen stopped in game) and only two
made 6N and they both got a small heart lead.

Pairs, All vul, Dealer North
♠ A106
♥ 4
• K643
♣ KJ982
♠ 854 ♠ Q93
♥ K87532 ♥ J109
• J1092 • 85
♣ - ♣ Q10753
♠ KJ72
♥ AQ6
• AQ7
♣ A64

I blew it at T3 by leading the S10 but fortunately East
gave it back by not covering (it was the first round of a big swiss
event so we had a pair from the lower half for this round).
Let's move the play back before the S10.
Can anyone find the correct play?

doug

[Robert Chance]

Post by Douglas Newlands
Can anyone find the correct play?

I already have - the JC at trick 4 (or indeed trick 3) brings in 12 tricks against any defence. If East plays low, you have 11 tricks and you can throw W in with a diamond to lead into the AQ of hearts for the 12th trick.

If E covers the JC, you win the ace and play a club to the 8 and East's 10. This again gives you 11 tricks, and there is an easy red-suit squeeze against W for the 12th. East can remove one of your red-suit entries when in with the 10 of clubs, but not both.

On the actual hand, running the 8 or 9 of clubs at trick 3/4 works just as well.

Running the spade and diamond winners first does not work. You have to find a discard from dummy on the fourth spade, which kills the threat in one of the minor suits, and you have lost the opportunity to force a third trick in clubs.

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by Robert Chance

Post by Douglas Newlands
Can anyone find the correct play?

I already have - the JC at trick 4 (or indeed trick 3) brings in 12 tricks against any defence. If East plays low, you have 11 tricks and you can throw W in with a diamond to lead into the AQ of hearts for the 12th trick.
If E covers the JC, you win the ace and play a club to the 8 and East's 10. This again gives you 11 tricks, and there is an easy red-suit squeeze against W for the 12th. East can remove one of your red-suit entries when in with the 10 of clubs, but not both.
On the actual hand, running the 8 or 9 of clubs at trick 3/4 works just as well.
Running the spade and diamond winners first does not work. You have to find a discard from dummy on the fourth spade, which kills the threat in one of the minor suits, and you have lost the opportunity to force a third trick in clubs.

Looking back up thread, I see you did!
The necessity to start that club holding with the jack (or to the jack
looks superficially difficult!

doug

[Berti Rupsli]

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by Robert Chance

Post by Douglas Newlands
Can anyone find the correct play?

I already have - the JC at trick 4 (or indeed trick 3) brings in 12 tricks against any defence. If East plays low, you have 11 tricks and you can throw W in with a diamond to lead into the AQ of hearts for the 12th trick.
If E covers the JC, you win the ace and play a club to the 8 and East's 10. This again gives you 11 tricks, and there is an easy red-suit squeeze against W for the 12th. East can remove one of your red-suit entries when in with the 10 of clubs, but not both.
On the actual hand, running the 8 or 9 of clubs at trick 3/4 works just as well.
Running the spade and diamond winners first does not work. You have to find a discard from dummy on the fourth spade, which kills the threat in one of the minor suits, and you have lost the opportunity to force a third trick in clubs.

Looking back up thread, I see you did!
The necessity to start that club holding with the jack (or to the jack
looks superficially difficult!
doug

Ok, that kind of answers all my questions in this thread. This ridiculous 2H overcall devastates my understanding of sensible Bridge bidding (I guess I would NEVER play with such a partner again!), so I'd NEVER draw the right conclusions and find the correct play for 6NT here... unfortunately.

Berti

[Player]

You are not playing with her, you are playing against her. People make overcalls like this. If you cannot deal with them this player owns you for life.

[Berti Rupsli]

Post by Player
You are not playing with her, you are playing against her. People make overcalls like this. If you cannot deal with them this player owns you for life.

Ron: I know it's playing "against" her (... but insofar if I "were" East as a partner...).

You speak of "her", so you know who she is; and would that mean that you expect such bidding from "her" - of course, that would change the situation...

And I fully understand that people "can" make overcalls like this (as long as they are not "my" partner doing such bids systematically...), there's nothing you can do against it. But what I meant is (for me) it doesn't make much sense in re-evaluating my "original" strategy here, now that I am aware of this ridiculous 2H overcall. On the long run - hopefully - one will not meet such nonsense frequently; so it seems better to judge based on reason than on arbitrariness. And yes, such "nonsense" can cause some disturbances for the oppts...

I still assume that the lead of DJ from a short suit - in this specific bidding situation! - could also cause irritation to declarer, so this would have been my first thought (from declarer's perspective!). And it seems much less risky than overcalling 2H with this "nothing" here; the latter could end in lots of downs and a high loss . I wonder how should West (with a passed pd, and both oppts bid) assume that South will directly jump to slam, instead of doubling!? And BTW the original situation (see OP) was "EW vul", only later Doug changed it to "All vul" - and this should result in quite a different evaluation here...

Of course, considered all, when holding "nothing", what else should West have led than DJ, even though it's rather "slow"...

I still wonder why all of you immediately considered that this 2H "nonsense" bid was in fact not a "profound" 2H bid - how can you "see" that (in advance)? Is this the way Bridge is regularly played at "higher" levels, that's more like Poker then... And especially why would you consider West's DJ lead as "normal" (from length), at the same time her 2H bidding as "non-normal" here? What gave it away?

Berti

[Player]

No idea who west is but I have seen many players bid like this. Now that I know it bugs you, if I ever played against you I too would bid like this.

[Steve Willner]

Post by Douglas Newlands
The necessity to start that club holding with the jack (or to the jack
looks superficially difficult!

I think starting with K, 9, or 8 work just as well. (I'm not certain
about K; am I missing something?) Starting with one of these doesn't
seem that difficult if you deduce that East is 3325. I don't think
making the deduction is easy, but nothing at bridge is easy for me.