Heart Game Hand is Passed Out -- What Happened?

Not playing 2/1.

Ronald

2016-08-26 16:11:12 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoints, Favorable Vulnerability
S: J9632
H: AK92
D: Q52
C: 9
S: A5
H: QT765
D: 84
C: A543
Should anyone open?

4th position has the value of 11, I open 1H. That doesn't mean we get to
4H. Anyway it looks like you need H 2-2 and S 3-3.

--
Ronald

Charles Brenner

2016-08-26 18:14:52 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoints, Favorable Vulnerability
S: J9632
H: AK92
D: Q52
C: 9
S: A5
H: QT765
D: 84
C: A543
Should anyone open?

No. Admittedly there are some great and successful young players who maybe open the 2nd seat one, but even so the superiority of the style isn't proven, and a good fitting example like this shouldn't count for much in deciding how to bid.

That's especially so since, even with the perfect club situation, 4H at matchpoints is only even money. How do you play on the likely club lead? Ruffing clubs is unlikely to get 10 tricks, so you start spades. If spades are 3-3 (and no heart void) you'll be ok, or if hearts are 2-2 you're a modest favorite.

KWSchneider

2016-08-26 20:24:28 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoints, Favorable Vulnerability
S: J9632
H: AK92
D: Q52
C: 9
S: A5
H: QT765
D: 84
C: A543
Should anyone open?

Obviously depends on system. We open 2nd hand 1H (canape) all day, every day and get to game. But as Ronald mentioned, I'm not sure that that is the place to be in MP. Dummy reversal to set up the spade, but a 3-1 heart split and heart lead could thwart that. Ideally, 4hearts, 2spade ruffs, diamond ruff, club, 2spades.

If 2nd hand doesn't open, I would pass it out as well.

How many pairs bid game? How many made 10tricks in hearts?

Kurt

--
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jogs

2016-08-26 23:35:33 UTC

Post by KWSchneider

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoints, Favorable Vulnerability
S: J9632
H: AK92
D: Q52
C: 9
S: A5
H: QT765
D: 84
C: A543
Should anyone open?

Obviously depends on system. We open 2nd hand 1H (canape) all day, every day and get to game. But as Ronald mentioned, I'm not sure that that is the place to be in MP. Dummy reversal to set up the spade, but a 3-1 heart split and heart lead could thwart that. Ideally, 4hearts, 2spade ruffs, diamond ruff, club, 2spades.
If 2nd hand doesn't open, I would pass it out as well.
How many pairs bid game? How many made 10tricks in hearts?
Kurt

I only see 7 obvious tricks. 2 more if hearts are 2-2. Probably can make a 10th trick with 3-3 spades. Doesn't seem like a better than 50/50 game.
This is the type of board where it goes passed out or 4H-1.

Player

2016-08-27 07:39:44 UTC

You certainly cannot open in 4th seat. The casino count is far too low.

Tom

2016-08-26 22:05:16 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoints, Favorable Vulnerability
S: J9632
H: AK92
D: Q52
C: 9
S: A5
H: QT765
D: 84
C: A543
Should anyone open?

No - it goes down with Spade leads.

Lorne Anderson

2016-08-27 10:39:59 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoints, Favorable Vulnerability
S: J9632
H: AK92
D: Q52
C: 9
S: A5
H: QT765
D: 84
C: A543
Should anyone open?

Bridge is a game of odds. The odds are that if 2nd hand opens you will
get too high (unless you bid in the knowledge these hands are opened
which has other knock on effects) and if 4th hand opens the oppo will
often out compete you in spades. Just because this time the 2nd hand
can control the spade position does not mean you should have bid, and
you do not want to be in game anyway with 7 top tricks and 2 club ruffs.
You need the diamond Q to get to 10 tricks or spades 3-3.

Having said that I would open the 4th hand if the majors were reversed

P***@yahoo.com

2016-08-27 21:29:17 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoints, Favorable Vulnerability
S: J9632
H: AK92
D: Q52
C: 9
S: A5
H: QT765
D: 84
C: A543
Should anyone open?

Bridge is a game of odds. The odds are that if 2nd hand opens you will
get too high (unless you bid in the knowledge these hands are opened
which has other knock on effects) and if 4th hand opens the oppo will
often out compete you in spades. Just because this time the 2nd hand
can control the spade position does not mean you should have bid, and
you do not want to be in game anyway with 7 top tricks and 2 club ruffs.
You need the diamond Q to get to 10 tricks or spades 3-3.
Having said that I would open the 4th hand if the majors were reversed

I agree on the fourth hand, because that's what casino count is all about. But, I'm inclined to open 1S on the first hand, with the understanding that I'm steering clear of NT by bidding my hand as if it is 5-5 in spades and hearts. Let's come up with an example hand of partner's where I get in trouble doing that, but wouldn't get in trouble opening 1S with this (only people who would open 1S with the following hand in second seat need reply):

S: KJ543
H: QJ543
D: Qx
C: Q

Charles Brenner

2016-08-28 05:17:05 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoints, Favorable Vulnerability
S: J9632
H: AK92
D: Q52
C: 9
S: A5
H: QT765
D: 84
C: A543
Should anyone open?

Bridge is a game of odds. The odds are that if 2nd hand opens you will
get too high (unless you bid in the knowledge these hands are opened
which has other knock on effects) and if 4th hand opens the oppo will
often out compete you in spades. Just because this time the 2nd hand
can control the spade position does not mean you should have bid, and
you do not want to be in game anyway with 7 top tricks and 2 club ruffs.
You need the diamond Q to get to 10 tricks or spades 3-3.
Having said that I would open the 4th hand if the majors were reversed

S: KJ543
H: QJ543
D: Qx
C: Q

Where's the logic in your argument? I heartily agree that Jxxxx,AKxx,Qxx,x with its 2 quick tricks is closer to being an opening bid than the above trashy 55. But absent a showing that the 55 hand -- effectively a 5 count plus 4 jacks -- is an opener, that doesn't at all imply the 5431 is worth opening.

p***@infi.net

2016-08-28 09:39:22 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoints, Favorable Vulnerability
S: J9632
H: AK92
D: Q52
C: 9
S: A5
H: QT765
D: 84
C: A543
Should anyone open?

Bridge is a game of odds. The odds are that if 2nd hand opens you will
get too high (unless you bid in the knowledge these hands are opened
which has other knock on effects) and if 4th hand opens the oppo will
often out compete you in spades. Just because this time the 2nd hand
can control the spade position does not mean you should have bid, and
you do not want to be in game anyway with 7 top tricks and 2 club ruffs.
You need the diamond Q to get to 10 tricks or spades 3-3.
Having said that I would open the 4th hand if the majors were reversed

S: KJ543
H: QJ543
D: Qx
C: Q

Who would open that pile of trash?

Charles Brenner

2016-08-28 04:58:35 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoints, Favorable Vulnerability
S: J9632
H: AK92
D: Q52
C: 9
S: A5
H: QT765
D: 84
C: A543
Should anyone open?

I like that explanation.

Post by Lorne Anderson
You need the diamond Q to get to 10 tricks or spades 3-3.

What lead are you assuming? I don't see the way to go for 3-3 spades with the dQ in reserve. I do see 3-3 spades with most 4-2 spades along with 2-2 trump break in reserve, which I believe is slightly better anyway.

P***@yahoo.com

2016-08-28 23:01:19 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoints, Favorable Vulnerability
S: J9632
H: AK92
D: Q52
C: 9
S: A5
H: QT765
D: 84
C: A543
Should anyone open?

Bridge is a game of odds. The odds are that if 2nd hand opens you will
get too high (unless you bid in the knowledge these hands are opened
which has other knock on effects) and if 4th hand opens the oppo will
often out compete you in spades. Just because this time the 2nd hand
can control the spade position does not mean you should have bid, and
you do not want to be in game anyway with 7 top tricks and 2 club ruffs.
You need the diamond Q to get to 10 tricks or spades 3-3.
Having said that I would open the 4th hand if the majors were reversed

I'm with your logic on fourth hand opening. However, on 2nd hand opening I think the odds that you'll get too high are smaller than the odds that you'll pass out a partscore. You probably won't get too high whenever your partner has at least three of one major, which is more than 90% probable. The probability of your partner having either 3+ spades or 4+ hearts is about 75%, and so there is a good probability that you have an eight card fit in one of the majors, in which case you won't get too high (protected by the 7.5 NLTC of the hand).

At matchpoints you'll miss your partscore when partner has 10-12 HCPs, does not have casino count, but does have either three spades or 3+ hearts. And, I think you can show by your simulator that the percentage of hands you'll pass out a partscore is significant.

When your partner has less than 10 HCPs, it's not clear whether the disruption of the 1S bid overcomes the fact that it's not a great suit for lead direction, but I don't think you can conclude that it's a competitive disadvantage (or a competitive advantage) to bid 1S in that case.

jogs

2016-08-28 23:25:07 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
I'm with your logic on fourth hand opening. However, on 2nd hand opening I think the odds that you'll get too high are smaller than the odds that you'll pass out a partscore.

The math is too complex. We can't know for sure whether opening 2nd hand would get us too high or not. Very difficult to design an unbiased test. That's why we continue to debate opposing methods. Having a 8 card fit doesn't mean we would find it. Also the 8 card fit does not guarantee 8 tricks in that fit. It only suggests we will make 8 tricks quite often providing we hold half the deck.

Will in New Haven

2016-08-30 15:47:38 UTC

Post by jogs

Post by P***@yahoo.com
I'm with your logic on fourth hand opening. However, on 2nd hand opening I think the odds that you'll get too high are smaller than the odds that you'll pass out a partscore.

There is a value in getting to name the trump suit. Passing the hand does not mean that the opponents will pass. The hand isn't shapely enough for most people to come in with Michaels and passing and then overcalling, while OK, is not as good as getting in the first punch. There was a time when an expert could bet that no minus score would get a top in one session of a major regional and have a fair chance of winning. That would never happen now.

--
Will in New Haven

p***@infi.net

2016-08-29 03:14:49 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoints, Favorable Vulnerability
S: J9632
H: AK92
D: Q52
C: 9
S: A5
H: QT765
D: 84
C: A543
Should anyone open?

Bridge is a game of odds. The odds are that if 2nd hand opens you will
get too high (unless you bid in the knowledge these hands are opened
which has other knock on effects) and if 4th hand opens the oppo will
often out compete you in spades. Just because this time the 2nd hand
can control the spade position does not mean you should have bid, and
you do not want to be in game anyway with 7 top tricks and 2 club ruffs.
You need the diamond Q to get to 10 tricks or spades 3-3.
Having said that I would open the 4th hand if the majors were reversed

I'm with your logic on fourth hand opening. However, on 2nd hand opening I think the odds that you'll get too high are smaller than the odds that you'll pass out a partscore. You probably won't get too high whenever your partner has at least three of one major, which is more than 90% probable. The probability of your partner having either 3+ spades or 4+ hearts is about 75%, and so there is a good probability that you have an eight card fit in one of the majors, in which case you won't get too high (protected by the 7.5 NLTC of the hand).
At matchpoints you'll miss your partscore when partner has 10-12 HCPs, does not have casino count, but does have either three spades or 3+ hearts. And, I think you can show by your simulator that the percentage of hands you'll pass out a partscore is significant.
When your partner has less than 10 HCPs, it's not clear whether the disruption of the 1S bid overcomes the fact that it's not a great suit for lead direction, but I don't think you can conclude that it's a competitive disadvantage (or a competitive advantage) to bid 1S in that case.

Richard Pavlicek compared hands in major events where some pairs opened light and others passed in first or second seat. Opening light in diamonds showed a clear edge, clubs and hearts showed a slight edge, but passing showed a slight edge compared to opening light in spades:
http://www.rpbridge.net/9x41.htm
I think the sample sizes make the results a tossup except for diamonds. It is possible the diamond results were influenced a great deal by system, such as opening a Precision 1D, so it is unclear whether opening light would be an advantage in a standard or 2/1 framework.

Lorne Anderson

2016-08-29 09:35:22 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoints, Favorable Vulnerability
S: J9632
H: AK92
D: Q52
C: 9
S: A5
H: QT765
D: 84
C: A543
Should anyone open?

Bridge is a game of odds. The odds are that if 2nd hand opens you will
get too high (unless you bid in the knowledge these hands are opened
which has other knock on effects) and if 4th hand opens the oppo will
often out compete you in spades. Just because this time the 2nd hand
can control the spade position does not mean you should have bid, and
you do not want to be in game anyway with 7 top tricks and 2 club ruffs.
You need the diamond Q to get to 10 tricks or spades 3-3.
Having said that I would open the 4th hand if the majors were reversed

I'm with your logic on fourth hand opening. However, on 2nd hand opening I think the odds that you'll get too high are smaller than the odds that you'll pass out a partscore. You probably won't get too high whenever your partner has at least three of one major, which is more than 90% probable. The probability of your partner having either 3+ spades or 4+ hearts is about 75%, and so there is a good probability that you have an eight card fit in one of the majors, in which case you won't get too high (protected by the 7.5 NLTC of the hand).
At matchpoints you'll miss your partscore when partner has 10-12 HCPs, does not have casino count, but does have either three spades or 3+ hearts. And, I think you can show by your simulator that the percentage of hands you'll pass out a partscore is significant.
When your partner has less than 10 HCPs, it's not clear whether the disruption of the 1S bid overcomes the fact that it's not a great suit for lead direction, but I don't think you can conclude that it's a competitive disadvantage (or a competitive advantage) to bid 1S in that case.

There is a lot of competing logic for and against opening the 2nd seat
hand so I think you have to go with your style. Personally I would open
if the major suit honours were reversed, ie

S: AK932
H: J962
D: Q52
C: 9

as I now have the extra edge that if we lose the auction partner will
lead a spade (bad news on the other hand) and also if partner competes
in spades with a doubleton Qx the trump strength will see me through.

Also looking at the paulhigh post it suggeststhat having spades lets us
recover and win a part score battle if the hand is not passed out which
is another factor in favour of passing the original hand.

Douglas Newlands

2016-08-30 03:58:30 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoints, Favorable Vulnerability
S: J9632
H: AK92
D: Q52
C: 9
S: A5
H: QT765
D: 84
C: A543
Should anyone open?

I have avoided this thread because I don't play and
don't like 2/1GF. The associated perception
that openers have to be sound doesn't appeal to
me either. I know others will disagree.

In a non 2/1GF method, I would open 1S because
I have both majors, can conveniently bid both,
have 7 losers and 2 defensive tricks.
I guess the auction would start 1S-1N-2H and
partner would bid 4H at teams but probably only 3H
at pairs.

While a spade lead may be uncomfortable if you end up
defending, you will feel much happier anytime the
auction starts 1S-P-2S.

doug

Berti Rupsli

2016-08-30 09:36:39 UTC

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoints, Favorable Vulnerability
S: J9632
H: AK92
D: Q52
C: 9
S: A5
H: QT765
D: 84
C: A543
Should anyone open?

I have avoided this thread because I don't play and
don't like 2/1GF. The associated perception
that openers have to be sound doesn't appeal to
me either. I know others will disagree.
In a non 2/1GF method, I would open 1S because
I have both majors, can conveniently bid both,
have 7 losers and 2 defensive tricks.
I guess the auction would start 1S-1N-2H and
partner would bid 4H at teams but probably only 3H
at pairs.
While a spade lead may be uncomfortable if you end up
defending, you will feel much happier anytime the
auction starts 1S-P-2S.
doug
I have avoided this thread because I don't play and don't like 2/1GF...

Doug: I truly LIKE to read your expert opinion on this cracked 2/1GF frenzy. Of course, I do understand the advantages of it, in case the framework conditions are favourable (good holdings, weak oppts/no oppt intervention, "aligned" partnership, etc), but if not ... lots of misunderstandings, lots of diverging "sub"systems, lots of compromises... (see the frequent discussions here on RGB). Thus, it seems a system for well-rehearsed, and knowledgeable partnerships only...

Post by Douglas Newlands
In a non 2/1GF method, I would open 1S because I have both majors, can conveniently bid both...

Me too, in case the partnership agreed on opening lighter, especially when holding both MM! I can't see the "pile of trash" (quote) others see in this holding, of course it would be better the J and the Q would be exchanged between S and D, but you can't have everything! And it's about the opening, not about a missed, "lucky" full game in the end...

As far as the reference to "Richard Pavlicek compared hands..." for light H or S openings in first or second seat is concerned, I would understand that his focus was collectively on ALL kinds of M opening situations (incl. one-suiters, Flannery situations, even less-than-4c holdings, ...), but he did NOT present a SEPARATE consideration of the heightened advantages of having BOTH 5(+)S-4(+)H available for the further bidding... And THIS should strongly influence the conclusions for "such" openings...!

Berti

p***@infi.net

2016-08-30 14:15:24 UTC

Post by Berti Rupsli

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoints, Favorable Vulnerability
S: J9632
H: AK92
D: Q52
C: 9
S: A5
H: QT765
D: 84
C: A543
Should anyone open?

I have avoided this thread because I don't play and
don't like 2/1GF. The associated perception
that openers have to be sound doesn't appeal to
me either. I know others will disagree.
In a non 2/1GF method, I would open 1S because
I have both majors, can conveniently bid both,
have 7 losers and 2 defensive tricks.
I guess the auction would start 1S-1N-2H and
partner would bid 4H at teams but probably only 3H
at pairs.
While a spade lead may be uncomfortable if you end up
defending, you will feel much happier anytime the
auction starts 1S-P-2S.
doug
I have avoided this thread because I don't play and don't like 2/1GF...

Post by Douglas Newlands
In a non 2/1GF method, I would open 1S because I have both majors, can conveniently bid both...

Me too, in case the partnership agreed on opening lighter, especially when holding both MM! I can't see the "pile of trash" (quote) others see in this holding, of course it would be better the J and the Q would be exchanged between S and D, but you can't have everything! And it's about the opening, not about a missed, "lucky" full game in the end...
As far as the reference to "Richard Pavlicek compared hands..." for light H or S openings in first or second seat is concerned, I would understand that his focus was collectively on ALL kinds of M opening situations (incl. one-suiters, Flannery situations, even less-than-4c holdings, ...), but he did NOT present a SEPARATE consideration of the heightened advantages of having BOTH 5(+)S-4(+)H available for the further bidding... And THIS should strongly influence the conclusions for "such" openings...!
Berti

What does not change with having both majors is partner either overbidding, expecting a better hand, or underbidding when you actually do have a better hand. I think opening light makes sense in a system such as Precision where the openings are limited in range.

Anecdotally I had a partner who routinely added 1 point for possession of the spade suit -- and we routinely got bad results since I was not in on the joke.

Robert Chance

2016-08-31 17:40:07 UTC

Post by Douglas Newlands
I guess the auction would start 1S-1N-2H and
partner would bid 4H at teams but probably only 3H
at pairs.

Responder has a 7-loser hand with a known 9-card fit, and two side bullets including Ax in partner's first suit. I'd say that's a comfortable raise to 4H even at pairs. 6H could easily be cold - all partner needs is:

Kxxxx
AKxxx
Kx
x

Steve Willner

2016-08-30 23:49:41 UTC

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoints, Favorable Vulnerability
S: J9632
H: AK92
D: Q52
C: 9

This is a normal 1S opening if playing Standard, KS, Precision, Polish,
or any other system that doesn't require sound openings in first and
second seat. Playing 2/1 with sound openings agreed, you have to pass
or bid 2S.

Post by P***@yahoo.com
S: A5
H: QT765
D: 84
C: A543

Normal pass, as everyone else wrote. Opposite a normal/light 1S
opening, this is an invite. Opposite a sound 1S opening, it's a game force.

Given the two hands, I'd like to be in 2H or 3H, but it looks to me as
though passed-out is superior to 4H. Pass-out won't matchpoint well in
most games, though, because most pairs can open the second-seat hand and
stop in a part score. Pass-out is the price you pay for agreeing sound
openings, which will benefit you on different deals.

Bruce Evans

2016-08-31 07:43:22 UTC