Suit or cue ?

[Dave Flower]

The opponents got a top last night at Banbury, when the following sequence occurred ?

2D(1) pass 2H(2) 3H

1) Multi
2) Pass or correct

What should the 3H bid mean ?

Dave Flower

[Player]

Post by Dave Flower
The opponents got a top last night at Banbury, when the following sequence occurred ?
2D(1) pass 2H(2) 3H
1) Multi
2) Pass or correct
What should the 3H bid mean ?
Dave Flower

Depends on agreements. Natural for me.

[KWSchneider]

What then would a double show?

[Player]

To of H.

[KWSchneider]

We don't often play against the multi in NA, but I'm confused about the efficiency of using X as a TO of hearts in the sequence 2D(P)2H.

Since RHO's spades are equal or longer than their hearts, doesn't it stand to reason that you will more often have longer hearts than spades in this auction? And as such, from a 'best use of space' principle, wouldn't it be more effective to have X show hearts, and 2S to show 5+s? 2N could easily be a TO for the minors.

YMMV...

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by KWSchneider
We don't often play against the multi in NA, but I'm confused about
the efficiency of using X as a TO of hearts in the sequence 2D(P)2H.
Since RHO's spades are equal or longer than their hearts, doesn't it
stand to reason that you will more often have longer hearts than
spades in this auction? And as such, from a 'best use of space'
principle, wouldn't it be more effective to have X show hearts, and
2S to show 5+s? 2N could easily be a TO for the minors.
YMMV...

RHO may have short spades as well as short hearts - 2H just says he
would have passed if they were playing natural weak 2's and opened 2H.

If you have hearts and pass LHO may pass in which case partner may
double for T/O and you get a penalty. If LHO bids 2S you get a second
chance to show hearts that were not good enough for a natural 3H bid
last round.

Note also that opener is more likely to have hearts if RHO bids 2H since
when LHO has spades RHO will usually have 3+ hearts and up the anti with
a 2S response.

IMO double for T/O is much better than other agreements.

[Bruce Evans]

Post by KWSchneider
We don't often play against the multi in NA, but I'm confused about the
efficiency of using X as a TO of hearts in the sequence 2D(P)2H.
Since RHO's spades are equal or longer than their hearts, doesn't it
stand to reason that you will more often have longer hearts than spades
in this auction? And as such, from a 'best use of space' principle,
wouldn't it be more effective to have X show hearts, and 2S to show 5+s?
2N could easily be a TO for the minors.
YMMV...

Accuracy is more important than efficiency. You are most likely to
have a takeout double of the opponents' major, and this is best shown
accurately by X = takeout of one of the majors and 2H = takeout of the
other. (X = t/o of H is of course worst since it leaves no takeout
bid for very strong hands with H.)

Not allowing 2H natural is probably an advantage. If you have hearts,
then the opponents have spades, so it is not very useful to find your
heart fit unless you have the extra strength or length needed to outbid
the opponents. Partner might have the extras but then X or 2H (normally
showing 4-5 hearts) will probably work OK. 2H for takeout forces you
to have one of these to bid a disciplined 3H, preferably the extra
length.

Suppose you play an ambigous double showing any hand unsuitable for
an unusual 2NT (ugh) and too strong for a natural 2H/2S/3C/3D/3H/3S.
This should work about as well as a 1-level takeout double showing
an opening hand. That is, not very well if the opponents know how
to bid, since of course you don't augment the double with black magic.
The basic defense is to preempt. Preempting is much easier after
a Multi opening than 1-level opening since opener is limited (except
in hobbled versions which require a strong option that is not strong
enough to be be unambiguous). Even baby psyches might work, but in
Multi there aren't really any psyches, just systematic pass/correct/
paradox bids which look like psyches to inexperienced opponents.

It is unclear how much the double should affect pass/correct responses.
I play that over X, pass and 2M are to play (with my suit ostensibly
better than opener's) and XX is t/o. I don't change the responses at
higher levels, since this would be complicated and it is necessary to
preempt often with no major length except 2+ in both, so some form of
pass/correct is needed. Many play pass/correct responses or usually
bid 2H over the double at the 2 level too, since you are unlikely to
have a suit better than opener's major and the both XX for t/o and 2S
pass/correct help the opponents more.

Bruce

[f***@googlemail.com]

Post by KWSchneider
We don't often play against the multi in NA, but I'm confused about the efficiency of using X as a TO of hearts in the sequence 2D(P)2H.
Since RHO's spades are equal or longer than their hearts, doesn't it stand to reason that you will more often have longer hearts than spades in this auction? And as such, from a 'best use of space' principle, wouldn't it be more effective to have X show hearts, and 2S to show 5+s? 2N could easily be a TO for the minors.
YMMV...

You need 2N as natural

If double shows hearts and 2S shows 5+ spades, what do you do on a 4243 13-count? If you pass, you will miss 3NT or 4S too often.

[f***@googlemail.com]

Post by KWSchneider
What then would a double show?

Double is take-out of hearts, or a super-strong hand

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by Dave Flower
The opponents got a top last night at Banbury, when the following sequence occurred ?
2D(1) pass 2H(2) 3H
1) Multi
2) Pass or correct
What should the 3H bid mean ?
Dave Flower

3H is natural.

Dble = T/O of H.

2S is also natural, as is 2N.

[jogs]

Post by Dave Flower
The opponents got a top last night at Banbury, when the following sequence occurred ?
2D(1) pass 2H(2) 3H
1) Multi
2) Pass or correct
What should the 3H bid mean ?
Dave Flower

Regardless of the definition you assign 3H, its
frequency will be less than once in over 100
sessions. I would never bid 3H whatever the hand.
I may see a hand which is worth a 4H call.

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by jogs

Post by Dave Flower
The opponents got a top last night at Banbury, when the following sequence occurred ?
2D(1) pass 2H(2) 3H
1) Multi
2) Pass or correct
What should the 3H bid mean ?
Dave Flower

Regardless of the definition you assign 3H, its
frequency will be less than once in over 100
sessions. I would never bid 3H whatever the hand.
I may see a hand which is worth a 4H call.

Dave lives in a country where a lot of people play a multi and it often
comes up that you have a good hand with 1633 shape or similar and 3H is
the only sensible call. If you pass there is a serious risk that opener
corrects to 2S and responder raises to 3S or 4S forcing you to make an
uncomfortable guess. Obviously you can go for a penalty but if opener
has hearts you may be making 3N as long as you only bid 3H with a good hand.

[Co Wiersma]

Post by jogs

Post by Dave Flower
The opponents got a top last night at Banbury, when the following sequence occurred ?
2D(1) pass 2H(2) 3H
1) Multi
2) Pass or correct
What should the 3H bid mean ?
Dave Flower

Regardless of the definition you assign 3H, its
frequency will be less than once in over 100
sessions. I would never bid 3H whatever the hand.
I may see a hand which is worth a 4H call.

Logic dictates that there will be much more often a hand where you want
to bid 3H then 4H

Co Wiersma

[Player]

Totally agree with this and Lorne's post. Jog's post makes no sense at all.

[jogs]

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by jogs

Post by Dave Flower
The opponents got a top last night at Banbury, when the following sequence occurred ?
2D(1) pass 2H(2) 3H
1) Multi
2) Pass or correct
What should the 3H bid mean ?
Dave Flower

Regardless of the definition you assign 3H, its
frequency will be less than once in over 100
sessions. I would never bid 3H whatever the hand.
I may see a hand which is worth a 4H call.

Logic dictates that there will be much more often a hand where you want
to bid 3H then 4H
Co Wiersma

There are no hands where one should bid 3H, followed by
4H. There is an occasional hand where one would wish
to bid 4H directly.

[[e-mail]]

Post by jogs

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by jogs

Post by Dave Flower
The opponents got a top last night at Banbury, when the following sequence occurred ?
2D(1) pass 2H(2) 3H
1) Multi
2) Pass or correct
What should the 3H bid mean ?
Dave Flower

Regardless of the definition you assign 3H, its
frequency will be less than once in over 100
sessions. I would never bid 3H whatever the hand.
I may see a hand which is worth a 4H call.

Logic dictates that there will be much more often a hand where you want
to bid 3H then 4H
Co Wiersma

There are no hands where one should bid 3H, followed by
4H. There is an occasional hand where one would wish
to bid 4H directly.

Not even to draw a double?

Carl

[f***@googlemail.com]

Post by jogs

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by jogs

Post by Dave Flower
The opponents got a top last night at Banbury, when the following sequence occurred ?
2D(1) pass 2H(2) 3H
1) Multi
2) Pass or correct
What should the 3H bid mean ?
Dave Flower

Regardless of the definition you assign 3H, its
frequency will be less than once in over 100
sessions. I would never bid 3H whatever the hand.
I may see a hand which is worth a 4H call.

Logic dictates that there will be much more often a hand where you want
to bid 3H then 4H
Co Wiersma

There are no hands where one should bid 3H, followed by
4H. There is an occasional hand where one would wish
to bid 4H directly.

There are plenty of hands where one should bid 3H and pass partner's 3NT bid
Or bid 3H and raise partner's 4m bid
Or bid 3H and accept partner's slam try

Saying there is no hand that would bid 3H is like saying you'd never overcall 3H over a 2S or 3m opening.

[Co Wiersma]

Post by jogs

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by jogs

Post by Dave Flower
The opponents got a top last night at Banbury, when the following sequence occurred ?
2D(1) pass 2H(2) 3H
1) Multi
2) Pass or correct
What should the 3H bid mean ?
Dave Flower

Regardless of the definition you assign 3H, its
frequency will be less than once in over 100
sessions. I would never bid 3H whatever the hand.
I may see a hand which is worth a 4H call.

Logic dictates that there will be much more often a hand where you want
to bid 3H then 4H
Co Wiersma

There are no hands where one should bid 3H, followed by
4H. There is an occasional hand where one would wish
to bid 4H directly.

What you mean with "followed by 4H" ?
And where did that come up?

[Co Wiersma]

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by jogs

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by jogs

Post by Dave Flower
The opponents got a top last night at Banbury, when the following
sequence occurred ?
2D(1) pass 2H(2) 3H
1) Multi
2) Pass or correct
What should the 3H bid mean ?
Dave Flower

Regardless of the definition you assign 3H, its
frequency will be less than once in over 100
sessions. I would never bid 3H whatever the hand.
I may see a hand which is worth a 4H call.

Logic dictates that there will be much more often a hand where you want
to bid 3H then 4H
Co Wiersma

There are no hands where one should bid 3H, followed by
4H. There is an occasional hand where one would wish
to bid 4H directly.

What you mean with "followed by 4H" ?
And where did that come up?

Maybe my English comes short

I meant to say
Logic dictates that a hand where one would want to bid 3H comes up more
frequent compared to a hand where one would want to bid 4H

Simply because 3Ha may be enough
Or maybe partner will prefer 3NT

Co Wiersma

[f***@googlemail.com]

Post by Dave Flower
The opponents got a top last night at Banbury, when the following sequence occurred ?
2D(1) pass 2H(2) 3H
1) Multi
2) Pass or correct
What should the 3H bid mean ?
Dave Flower

Natural. The same as a 3H overcall of a 2S opening.

Can't really conceive of another meaning. RHO has shown short hearts.

[f***@googlemail.com]

Post by Dave Flower
The opponents got a top last night at Banbury, when the following sequence occurred ?
2D(1) pass 2H(2) 3H
1) Multi
2) Pass or correct
What should the 3H bid mean ?
Dave Flower

I thought of this thread last night when we bid

2D (1) pass 2H(2) 3H(3)
pass 4C(3) pass 4S(4)
pass 4NT(5) pass 6C(3)
all pass

(1) multi
(2) pass or correct
(3) natural
(4) agrees clubs
(5) stronger than 5C

+920. 2-6-2-3 opposite 1-1-5-6

[Sandy Barnes]

Post by Dave Flower
The opponents got a top last night at Banbury, when the following sequence occurred ?
2D(1) pass 2H(2) 3H
1) Multi
2) Pass or correct
What should the 3H bid mean ?
Dave Flower

I don't normally play against the Multi, so i am unsure what to expect from the sequence. This being said, I would think it was natural.

[Tom]

Post by Sandy Barnes

Post by Dave Flower
The opponents got a top last night at Banbury, when the following sequence occurred ?
2D(1) pass 2H(2) 3H
1) Multi
2) Pass or correct
What should the 3H bid mean ?
Dave Flower

I don't normally play against the Multi, so i am unsure what to expect
from the sequence. This being said, I would think it was natural.

In a very simple Multi version I play, 2H here is non-forcing and
normally show shorter Hs than Ss (you bid your shortage so pard's hand
will be dummy since odds are he has more Hs than Ss and you have the
opposite). I think 3H or 2S are natural making the assumption that
opener will be short in your 5+ card suit ... and hope you are not
playing rubber bridge if not.

Tom Reid