Abalucy Scandal at Bridge Base Online

[Hans Klopp]

Dear Fellow Bridge Lovers,

Recently there was a thread on Bridge Base Forum regarding a cheating
accusation leveled at a player by an Abalucy Director who also happens
to be a BBO/ACBL Director, and one of the principals of the Abalucy
Club. The player accused was most upset by this and posted about it.

Things quickly got out of control and certain "yellows" of BBO were
bashing this poor woman who was innocent but felt awful having been
accused. Who can blame her?

Today I went to update myself on this Forum thread, only to discover
it had been deleted!

The thread and many posts seemed to suggest there were ongoing
problems with this Abalucy tournament and some of the people who run
it, and the intimation was strong that Uday and BBO management have
historically protected this club and Abadaba no matter what problems
were brought to the fore.

Abalucy is supposedly an ethically based bridge club, so what
justification is there for unethical behaviour by one of it's
principals on the BBO server? Beyond that, how can the ACBL affiliate
itself with anyone who is swathed in controversy over an ethical
violation as serious as accusing someone of being unethical. Removing
the thread from the Forum will not make the issue go away.

Free speech, though not enjoyed worldwide, is a fine principle. If
there is nothing ugly to hide, why delete an entire thread? If this
accusation was made, why has the Director not been severely
sanctioned, and perhaps even been banned from BBO? Will she be
permitted to continue to run the club and direct in ACBL sanctioned
events?

Let's air this out for once and all. Is Abalucy the ethical Club it
professes to be? If not, PLEASE let's disband the club so as not to
harm BBO and the game of bridge itself irreparably.

Hans

[Ian Payn]

"Hans Klopp" <***@sociologist.com> wrote

<AMONGST OTHER THINGS>

Post by Hans Klopp
Let's air this out for once and all. Is Abalucy the ethical Club it
professes to be? If not, PLEASE let's disband the club so as not to
harm BBO and the game of bridge itself irreparably.

++++I have no comment to make upon this individual case, or whether
"Abalucy" is an "ethical" club. But I've read the Abalucy web page, and
ethical or not, it's certainly bloody ridiculous, and I can't imagine anyone
with any sense touching it with a bargepole. Didn't we have a laugh at it in
this very ng a month or two ago?

[Ron Lel]

Post by Ian Payn
<AMONGST OTHER THINGS>

Post by Hans Klopp
Let's air this out for once and all. Is Abalucy the ethical Club it
professes to be? If not, PLEASE let's disband the club so as not to
harm BBO and the game of bridge itself irreparably.

++++I have no comment to make upon this individual case, or whether
"Abalucy" is an "ethical" club. But I've read the Abalucy web page, and
ethical or not, it's certainly bloody ridiculous, and I can't imagine anyone
with any sense touching it with a bargepole. Didn't we have a laugh at it in
this very ng a month or two ago?

Ian I don't see why you think it is ridiculous. Having lofty ideals might
seem ridiculous in this day and age but some people do try to live up to
them.
As I said in my other post, there are 2 sides to every story and the poster
who has aired this issue here under what I believe to be a pseudonym, to
posters most of whom have no idea of who/what/whom, has a lot to answer
for. Seriously, look at this crap - "so as not to harm BBO and the game of
bridge itself irreparably." Puke! I mean to say, is this not a troll
attempting to cause trouble?

Ron Lel

[Ian Payn]

Post by Hans Klopp

Post by Ian Payn
<AMONGST OTHER THINGS>

Post by Hans Klopp
Let's air this out for once and all. Is Abalucy the ethical Club it
professes to be? If not, PLEASE let's disband the club so as not to
harm BBO and the game of bridge itself irreparably.

++++I have no comment to make upon this individual case, or whether
"Abalucy" is an "ethical" club. But I've read the Abalucy web page, and
ethical or not, it's certainly bloody ridiculous, and I can't imagine

anyone

Post by Ian Payn
with any sense touching it with a bargepole. Didn't we have a laugh at

it

Post by Hans Klopp
in

Post by Ian Payn
this very ng a month or two ago?

Ian I don't see why you think it is ridiculous. Having lofty ideals might
seem ridiculous in this day and age but some people do try to live up to
them.
As I said in my other post, there are 2 sides to every story and the poster
who has aired this issue here under what I believe to be a pseudonym, to
posters most of whom have no idea of who/what/whom, has a lot to answer
for. Seriously, look at this crap - "so as not to harm BBO and the game of
bridge itself irreparably." Puke! I mean to say, is this not a troll
attempting to cause trouble?
Ron Lel

++++That last thought did occur to me. Having never seen the name before and
noting, as you did, that the rhetoric was on the rich side, I was at pains
to point out that I had no desire to get involved in this particular (non)
argument. Indeed, I must confess that I stopped reading the original posting
about a third of the way through.

My real point was about Abalucy in general, as you gleaned: There is indeed
nothing wrong with having high ideals, but scrutiny of the Abalucy website
suggested to me that they had their own idea of "high ideals" and it didn't
conform much to mine. It seemed analagous, to me (and others) to the table
in a (real life) tournament where you turn up and there's a little card
saying "this is a zero tolerance table". This, of course, is a corruption of
a fine idea, because what it means is "if you don't behave in exactly the
manner I like, I'm having the director in. I, on the other hand, can behave
as I please."

[Ron Lel]

snipped

Post by Ian Payn
My real point was about Abalucy in general, as you gleaned: There is indeed
nothing wrong with having high ideals, but scrutiny of the Abalucy website
suggested to me that they had their own idea of "high ideals" and it didn't
conform much to mine. It seemed analagous, to me (and others) to the table
in a (real life) tournament where you turn up and there's a little card
saying "this is a zero tolerance table". This, of course, is a corruption of
a fine idea, because what it means is "if you don't behave in exactly the
manner I like, I'm having the director in. I, on the other hand, can behave
as I please."

Fair point Ian and that sort of crap pisses me off too. However having said
that, I understand where Abalucy is coming from and I sympathise with the
sentiments.

Ron

[Peter Clinch]

Post by Ron Lel
snipped

Post by Ian Payn
My real point was about Abalucy in general, as you gleaned: There is

indeed

Post by Ian Payn
nothing wrong with having high ideals, but scrutiny of the Abalucy website
suggested to me that they had their own idea of "high ideals" and it

didn't

Post by Ian Payn
conform much to mine. It seemed analagous, to me (and others) to the table
in a (real life) tournament where you turn up and there's a little card
saying "this is a zero tolerance table". This, of course, is a corruption

of

Post by Ian Payn
a fine idea, because what it means is "if you don't behave in exactly the
manner I like, I'm having the director in. I, on the other hand, can

behave

Post by Ian Payn
as I please."

Fair point Ian and that sort of crap pisses me off too. However having said
that, I understand where Abalucy is coming from and I sympathise with the
sentiments.

Yep, you have to say that Abalucy has put a lot of work into what they
have done. Whether their actions have achieved the hoped-for end
results is more open to question. I'm sure they want to attract the
cream of the crop, and thereby have laid themselves open to charges of
elitism (they might agree) or just a different form of obnoxiousness
than that which they were hoping to eliminate.

The fact is, anybody can run a tournament on BBO, and this has
certainly led to a very speckled group of organisers who believe their
time has come. I played in one the other day (continuing my sampling
of individual tourneys) where the master of ceremonies told us all to
have fun. He then told us not to bother calling the director - we are
here to have fun. Fair enough. He then, however, started berating
particular players by name for leaving the tournament, saying they
were now on his blacklist. Having presumably received some feedback
about that performance, he invited everyone who had a problem with his
behaviour to complain about it to BBO if they felt so strongly. He
then told us all "if you think this directing is so easy, you just try
it". Periodically he reminded us that there was no mercy to be shown
to people who were not having fun; they would be banished permanently
from his future tournaments. Well, I must say I was having a blast
myself. I was having as much fun as I do when I try to get to sleep on
a plane and am woken up every five minutes by the captain telling me
the temperature at our destination.

The next day, I entered another one which, it has to be said, was very
well run. It was suddenly clear that I should have read the rubric.
Every board took 12 minutes. 12 boards, over two hours in total. Worst
of all, I hadn't realised that every player was required to play
WJ2000, a system I couldn't even access from Daniel Neill's site
because, presumably, everybody else playing was on it at the time. It
was inconsequential; I could never have devoured the 80 pages of
closely typed artifice. I was the only non-Pole there. I just hoped
no-one would notice - my Union Jack might have been a giveaway,
though. I quickly learned to say "cz" to everyone, which appears to be
"hi" in Polish. Somehow I finished in the top third of the field. I
rate that as one of my finer bridge achievements of the past few
years. My sincere apologies for having entered; I am now wading
through the system in some awe.

Peter.
New York (couple of miles left of Warsaw).

[craig]

Post by Hans Klopp

Post by Ian Payn
<AMONGST OTHER THINGS>

Post by Hans Klopp
Let's air this out for once and all. Is Abalucy the ethical Club it
professes to be? If not, PLEASE let's disband the club so as not to
harm BBO and the game of bridge itself irreparably.

++++I have no comment to make upon this individual case, or whether
"Abalucy" is an "ethical" club. But I've read the Abalucy web page, and
ethical or not, it's certainly bloody ridiculous, and I can't imagine

anyone

Post by Ian Payn
with any sense touching it with a bargepole. Didn't we have a laugh at it

in

Post by Ian Payn
this very ng a month or two ago?

Ian I don't see why you think it is ridiculous. Having lofty ideals might
seem ridiculous in this day and age but some people do try to live up to
them.
As I said in my other post, there are 2 sides to every story and the poster
who has aired this issue here under what I believe to be a pseudonym, to
posters most of whom have no idea of who/what/whom, has a lot to answer
for. Seriously, look at this crap - "so as not to harm BBO and the game of
bridge itself irreparably." Puke! I mean to say, is this not a troll
attempting to cause trouble?
Ron Lel

For the public record, I had absolutely nothing to do with this and was only
just now made aware of the existence of thjis thread. So, if you were
thinking it was me-- it wasn't and I am not involved.

Craig Gordon
AKA Steve (my middle name actually)
Formerly known on BBO as TopFlight

[Ron Lel]

Post by craig

Post by Hans Klopp

Post by Ian Payn
<AMONGST OTHER THINGS>

Post by Hans Klopp
Let's air this out for once and all. Is Abalucy the ethical Club it
professes to be? If not, PLEASE let's disband the club so as not to
harm BBO and the game of bridge itself irreparably.

++++I have no comment to make upon this individual case, or whether
"Abalucy" is an "ethical" club. But I've read the Abalucy web page, and
ethical or not, it's certainly bloody ridiculous, and I can't imagine

anyone

Post by Ian Payn
with any sense touching it with a bargepole. Didn't we have a laugh at it

in

Post by Ian Payn
this very ng a month or two ago?

Ian I don't see why you think it is ridiculous. Having lofty ideals might
seem ridiculous in this day and age but some people do try to live up to
them.
As I said in my other post, there are 2 sides to every story and the poster
who has aired this issue here under what I believe to be a pseudonym, to
posters most of whom have no idea of who/what/whom, has a lot to answer
for. Seriously, look at this crap - "so as not to harm BBO and the game of
bridge itself irreparably." Puke! I mean to say, is this not a troll
attempting to cause trouble?
Ron Lel

For the public record, I had absolutely nothing to do with this and was only
just now made aware of the existence of thjis thread. So, if you were
thinking it was me-- it wasn't and I am not involved.
Craig Gordon
AKA Steve (my middle name actually)
Formerly known on BBO as TopFlight

Never occurred to me Steve.

Ron

[richard willey]

I have a few comments here...

I follow the the BBO forums quite closely. Your insinuation that Uday
and the BBO management have historically "Protected" the Abalucy club
seems unfounded. BBO has a concious policy of locking down threads on
the forums that get too heated. I doubt that their decision had
anything to do with the fact that the Abalucy club was specifically
involved. Its disingenous to suggest otherwise.

Equally significant, BBO has traditionally had a very hands off policy
regarding private membership organization. As the name suggests,
"private" clubs like Abalucy exist as separate entities from BBO. You
comment "Lets disband the club"... To whom are you addressing this?
The only ones who can disband the club are the individual members. In
theory I suppose that the BBO management could force AAbalucy to
disband. In practice, I think that this kind of
paternalistic/centrally managed system is unworkable.

I have always been a strong proponent of allowing private memebrship
organizations to grow and flourish on the different bridge servers.
never in my worst nightmares did I imagine that these clubs could
generate such and unending stream of bullshit as the principle
constantly bicker back and forth.

If you have problems with the way a club is being run, don't frequent
their games.

[John Uchida]

You comment "Lets disband the club"... To whom are you addressing this?
The only ones who can disband the club are the individual members. In
theory I suppose that the BBO management could force AAbalucy to
disband.

Never heard of this club before, but I would think it would take just
a couple of minutes of programming to delete the club from BB whether
the members liked it or not..

[Andrew Gumperz]

Post by richard willey
Equally significant, BBO has traditionally had a very hands off policy
regarding private membership organization. As the name suggests,
"private" clubs like Abalucy exist as separate entities from BBO. You
comment "Lets disband the club"... To whom are you addressing this?
The only ones who can disband the club are the individual members. In
theory I suppose that the BBO management could force AAbalucy to
disband. In practice, I think that this kind of
paternalistic/centrally managed system is unworkable.

I don't think the libel laws are in accord with your position. If a
club operator uses BBO as a forum to libel individuals (for example by
stating or implying that they cheat at cards) there is precedent for
suing BBO as the mechanism through which the libel is distributed. In
one case an ISP was sued successfully for libel because a user of its
service used it to distribute libelous statements.

Given that legal exposure, it is a reasonable precaution by BBO
management to require operators of private clubs/tourneys to follow
some simple rules to maintain the privilege of running a club. These
rules should, at a minimum, proscribe the making of libelous
statements by club officials.

Post by richard willey
I have always been a strong proponent of allowing private memebrship
organizations to grow and flourish on the different bridge servers.
never in my worst nightmares did I imagine that these clubs could
generate such and unending stream of bullshit as the principle
constantly bicker back and forth.

I also feel that the primary defense to objectionable behavior by a
club operator is not to patronize that club. If all players took that
approach, it would significantly reduce the USB (unending stream of
bullshit).

However, IMO some club operators have been at least as responsible as
the players for the USB. Club operators have contributed to the USB by
allowing cheating accusations to leak out to the public. They have
also used their prestige to badger and intimidate others. I know of at
least one case where I felt outraged at how the accusee was treated,
regardless of the merits of the accusation.

Fred and Uday wind up dealing with the aftermath of these incidents.
The fewer that occur, the less of their time is consumed on unpleasant
nonsense. I think they would find it worthwhile to train the private
club owners to handle cheating issues in a responsible manner and then
to insist that they follow this basic regulation if they want to keep
running a club. If Fred and Uday do not take action, I would not be
surprised if the USB eventually surfaces in a courtroom some day.


Andrew

[Ian Payn]

Post by richard willey
If you have problems with the way a club is being run, don't frequent
their games.

++++A seditious and immoral suggestion which will ROCK THE BRIDGE WORLD TO
ITS VERY FOUNDATIONS!!!!!

Ho ho.

[Tim Goodwin]

Post by Hans Klopp
Recently there was a thread on Bridge Base Forum regarding a cheating
accusation leveled at a player

This is a rather strong characterization of what took place (from my
reading of the thread on BBO's forum).

Post by Hans Klopp
If not, PLEASE let's disband the club so as not to
harm BBO and the game of bridge itself irreparably.

A private club should be just that. I see no reason for BBO to take
any action to disband it. If the members of the club are upset with
the way things are run, they have the power to leave the club. Seems
simple.

To understand how much you have blown the situation out of proportion,
one only has to think a little bit about your suggestion that an
incident at a private club on one of the (many) online services could
possibly harm bridge irreparably.

Tim

[John (MadDog) Probst]

Post by Tim Goodwin

Post by Hans Klopp
Recently there was a thread on Bridge Base Forum regarding a cheating
accusation leveled at a player

This is a rather strong characterization of what took place (from my
reading of the thread on BBO's forum).

Post by Hans Klopp
If not, PLEASE let's disband the club so as not to
harm BBO and the game of bridge itself irreparably.

A private club should be just that. I see no reason for BBO to take
any action to disband it. If the members of the club are upset with
the way things are run, they have the power to leave the club. Seems
simple.
To understand how much you have blown the situation out of proportion,
one only has to think a little bit about your suggestion that an
incident at a private club on one of the (many) online services could
possibly harm bridge irreparably.

I can think of plenty of f2f clubs that should be disbanded, if one were
to use this as a basis.

Post by Tim Goodwin
Tim

[John Blubaugh]

Post by Hans Klopp
Dear Fellow Bridge Lovers,
Recently there was a thread on Bridge Base Forum regarding a cheating
accusation leveled at a player by an Abalucy Director who also happens
to be a BBO/ACBL Director, and one of the principals of the Abalucy
Club. The player accused was most upset by this and posted about it.
Things quickly got out of control and certain "yellows" of BBO were
bashing this poor woman who was innocent but felt awful having been
accused. Who can blame her?
Today I went to update myself on this Forum thread, only to discover
it had been deleted!
The thread and many posts seemed to suggest there were ongoing
problems with this Abalucy tournament and some of the people who run
it, and the intimation was strong that Uday and BBO management have
historically protected this club and Abadaba no matter what problems
were brought to the fore.
Abalucy is supposedly an ethically based bridge club, so what
justification is there for unethical behaviour by one of it's
principals on the BBO server? Beyond that, how can the ACBL affiliate
itself with anyone who is swathed in controversy over an ethical
violation as serious as accusing someone of being unethical. Removing
the thread from the Forum will not make the issue go away.
Free speech, though not enjoyed worldwide, is a fine principle. If
there is nothing ugly to hide, why delete an entire thread? If this
accusation was made, why has the Director not been severely
sanctioned, and perhaps even been banned from BBO? Will she be
permitted to continue to run the club and direct in ACBL sanctioned
events?
Let's air this out for once and all. Is Abalucy the ethical Club it
professes to be? If not, PLEASE let's disband the club so as not to
harm BBO and the game of bridge itself irreparably.
Hans

Some things never change!!

JB

[Ron Lel]

Post by Hans Klopp
Dear Fellow Bridge Lovers,
Recently there was a thread on Bridge Base Forum regarding a cheating
accusation leveled at a player by an Abalucy Director who also happens
to be a BBO/ACBL Director, and one of the principals of the Abalucy
Club. The player accused was most upset by this and posted about it.
Things quickly got out of control and certain "yellows" of BBO were
bashing this poor woman who was innocent but felt awful having been
accused. Who can blame her?
Today I went to update myself on this Forum thread, only to discover
it had been deleted!
The thread and many posts seemed to suggest there were ongoing
problems with this Abalucy tournament and some of the people who run
it, and the intimation was strong that Uday and BBO management have
historically protected this club and Abadaba no matter what problems
were brought to the fore.
Abalucy is supposedly an ethically based bridge club, so what
justification is there for unethical behaviour by one of it's
principals on the BBO server? Beyond that, how can the ACBL affiliate
itself with anyone who is swathed in controversy over an ethical
violation as serious as accusing someone of being unethical. Removing
the thread from the Forum will not make the issue go away.
Free speech, though not enjoyed worldwide, is a fine principle. If
there is nothing ugly to hide, why delete an entire thread? If this
accusation was made, why has the Director not been severely
sanctioned, and perhaps even been banned from BBO? Will she be
permitted to continue to run the club and direct in ACBL sanctioned
events?
Let's air this out for once and all. Is Abalucy the ethical Club it
professes to be? If not, PLEASE let's disband the club so as not to
harm BBO and the game of bridge itself irreparably.
Hans

I realise that this is a newsgroup and therfore there is no follow up
as to whether what someone posts is accurate or not.
The facts are that while there certainly was a problem the above post
does contain a number of innacuracies.
However more importantly, this post is clearly designed simply to
cause problems and stir up strife even amongst those who have no idea
what Abalucy is, let alone anyone who has read or contributed to the
said thread like I have. Looking at the name of the poster and its
tone, I suggest we have a troll in our midst and can only say "Don't
feed the trolls".

Ron Lel

[Ron Lel]

Post by Hans Klopp
Dear Fellow Bridge Lovers,
Recently there was a thread on Bridge Base Forum regarding a cheating
accusation leveled at a player by an Abalucy Director who also happens
to be a BBO/ACBL Director, and one of the principals of the Abalucy
Club. The player accused was most upset by this and posted about it.
Things quickly got out of control and certain "yellows" of BBO were
bashing this poor woman who was innocent but felt awful having been
accused. Who can blame her?
Today I went to update myself on this Forum thread, only to discover
it had been deleted!
The thread and many posts seemed to suggest there were ongoing
problems with this Abalucy tournament and some of the people who run
it, and the intimation was strong that Uday and BBO management have
historically protected this club and Abadaba no matter what problems
were brought to the fore.
Abalucy is supposedly an ethically based bridge club, so what
justification is there for unethical behaviour by one of it's
principals on the BBO server? Beyond that, how can the ACBL affiliate
itself with anyone who is swathed in controversy over an ethical
violation as serious as accusing someone of being unethical. Removing
the thread from the Forum will not make the issue go away.
Free speech, though not enjoyed worldwide, is a fine principle. If
there is nothing ugly to hide, why delete an entire thread? If this
accusation was made, why has the Director not been severely
sanctioned, and perhaps even been banned from BBO? Will she be
permitted to continue to run the club and direct in ACBL sanctioned
events?
Let's air this out for once and all. Is Abalucy the ethical Club it
professes to be? If not, PLEASE let's disband the club so as not to
harm BBO and the game of bridge itself irreparably.
Hans

I realise that this is a newsgroup and therfore there is no follow up
as to whether what someone posts is accurate or not.
The facts are that while there certainly was a problem the above post
does contain a number of innacuracies.
However more importantly, this post is clearly designed simply to
cause problems and stir up strife even amongst those who have no idea
what Abalucy is, let alone anyone who has read or contributed to the
said thread like I have. Looking at the name of the poster and its
tone, I suggest we have a troll in our midst and can only say "Don't
feed the trolls".

Ron Lel

[craig]

Post by Ron Lel

Post by Hans Klopp
Dear Fellow Bridge Lovers,
Recently there was a thread on Bridge Base Forum regarding a cheating
accusation leveled at a player by an Abalucy Director who also happens
to be a BBO/ACBL Director, and one of the principals of the Abalucy
Club. The player accused was most upset by this and posted about it.
Things quickly got out of control and certain "yellows" of BBO were
bashing this poor woman who was innocent but felt awful having been
accused. Who can blame her?
Today I went to update myself on this Forum thread, only to discover
it had been deleted!
The thread and many posts seemed to suggest there were ongoing
problems with this Abalucy tournament and some of the people who run
it, and the intimation was strong that Uday and BBO management have
historically protected this club and Abadaba no matter what problems
were brought to the fore.
Abalucy is supposedly an ethically based bridge club, so what
justification is there for unethical behaviour by one of it's
principals on the BBO server? Beyond that, how can the ACBL affiliate
itself with anyone who is swathed in controversy over an ethical
violation as serious as accusing someone of being unethical. Removing
the thread from the Forum will not make the issue go away.
Free speech, though not enjoyed worldwide, is a fine principle. If
there is nothing ugly to hide, why delete an entire thread? If this
accusation was made, why has the Director not been severely
sanctioned, and perhaps even been banned from BBO? Will she be
permitted to continue to run the club and direct in ACBL sanctioned
events?
Let's air this out for once and all. Is Abalucy the ethical Club it
professes to be? If not, PLEASE let's disband the club so as not to
harm BBO and the game of bridge itself irreparably.
Hans

I realise that this is a newsgroup and therfore there is no follow up
as to whether what someone posts is accurate or not.
The facts are that while there certainly was a problem the above post
does contain a number of innacuracies.
However more importantly, this post is clearly designed simply to
cause problems and stir up strife even amongst those who have no idea
what Abalucy is, let alone anyone who has read or contributed to the
said thread like I have. Looking at the name of the poster and its
tone, I suggest we have a troll in our midst and can only say "Don't
feed the trolls".
Ron Lel

Hehe.. Ron posted on the BBO Forum regarding how whoever started this thread
had committed a faux pas in doing so. You can all read it there.

In any event, I was going to write a response to Ron's posting when I
discovered that BBO had, again, shut it down. What a world we live in!

[Frans Buijsen]

Post by craig
Hehe.. Ron posted on the BBO Forum regarding how whoever started this thread
had committed a faux pas in doing so. You can all read it there.

Where do we find the BBO forum?

[Wayne Burrows]

Post by Frans Buijsen

Post by craig
Hehe.. Ron posted on the BBO Forum regarding how whoever started this
thread had committed a faux pas in doing so. You can all read it there.

Where do we find the BBO forum?

http://bridgebase.lunarpages.com/~bridge2/forums/index.php

Wayne

[2002mbyr]

BBO now stooping to new low - talk about scandals. Guess they can't make
enough. Have it on good authority that ole' Fred and Uday are advertising
help to Tsunam stricken areas to build up some of the pay tourneys. What
a group.

[Fred Gitelman]

Post by 2002mbyr
BBO now stooping to new low - talk about scandals. Guess they can't make
enough. Have it on good authority that ole' Fred and Uday are advertising
help to Tsunam stricken areas to build up some of the pay tourneys. What
a group.

I don't know who your "good authority" is but what you report is a load of
crap. Here is the true story:

Several people contacted me last week and asked me if it was possible for
BBO to try to raise money for victims of the earthquake. I had what I
thought were some very good reasons for saying "no" to all of these people.
I will be happy to share those reasons if you really want to know what they
are.

There are several organizations that run pay tournaments on our site. These
organizations pay us a percentage of the money they take in, but they are
more or less autonomous. 2 of these organizations did run a few pay
tournaments and advertised that they would give the money they made to
charity. Neither Uday nor myself had anything to do with this - we didn't
even know it was happening until we saw these tournaments running. I can't
say that I was happy about this, but would I have interfered if I knew what
these organizations were planning? I'm really not sure.

I would not expect a person like you who apparently sees scandals everywhere
and is too much of a coward to include his real name among his vicious lies
to believe me, but what you have just read is completely true and I am not
leaving out any details.

For several years my partners and I have been working day and night without
pay to provide the best possible online bridge service that we possibly can.
It is important to us that this service remains free, because we think that
this is good for the future of bridge (which is something we care about
deeply). We are now starting to make some money from this service, but I am
not going to apologize for that. If you think that we are up to some secret
evil purpose that is your business. Go play your online bridge somewhere
else (perhaps you have no choice because you have been barred from our site
due to the psychotic tendencies that you apparently have?).

By the way, my partners and I have nothing but sympathy for the victims of
the recent terrible disaster. The nature of the disaster itself has nothing
to do with our policies in this area.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[tbs]

What a load of horse poop.

There was a suggestion on the Bridge Base Forums that BBO engage in some
fund raising for the tsunami victims. This was promptly knocked on the head
by Fred Gitelman who commented that
a) once you start raising money for one worthwhile cause, many others will
come knocking at your door.
b) Money collected on BBO is subject to commission by Mastercard and Visa so
why not donate directly to one of the many organisations already collecting.

NickF
Sydney

Post by 2002mbyr
BBO now stooping to new low - talk about scandals. Guess they can't make
enough. Have it on good authority that ole' Fred and Uday are advertising
help to Tsunam stricken areas to build up some of the pay tourneys. What
a group.

[Robert Tamlyn]

Post by 2002mbyr
BBO now stooping to new low - talk about scandals. Guess they can't make
enough. Have it on good authority that ole' Fred and Uday are advertising
help to Tsunam stricken areas to build up some of the pay tourneys. What
a group.

Do you realize how most people will react to such an obviously ignorant
asinine statement such as the above?

[Ian Payn]

Post by Robert Tamlyn

Post by 2002mbyr
BBO now stooping to new low - talk about scandals. Guess they can't make
enough. Have it on good authority that ole' Fred and Uday are advertising
help to Tsunam stricken areas to build up some of the pay tourneys.

What

Post by Robert Tamlyn

Post by 2002mbyr
a group.

Do you realize how most people will react to such an obviously ignorant
asinine statement such as the above?

++++My guess would be laughter.

[Dwayne Hoffman]

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<title></title>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<font face="Arial">I needed the laugh, thanks.<br>
</font>
</body>
</html>

[Ron Johnson]

Post by Ian Payn

Post by Robert Tamlyn

Post by 2002mbyr
BBO now stooping to new low - talk about scandals. Guess they can't
make enough. Have it on good authority that ole' Fred and Uday are
advertising help to Tsunam stricken areas to build up some of the pay
tourneys.
What a group.

Do you realize how most people will react to such an obviously ignorant
asinine statement such as the above?

++++My guess would be laughter.

Well laughter doesn't quite capture the utter contempt for the loathsome
initial post. Fred's earned the trust and respect of the bridge community.
The anonymous coward hasn't.

If it's a troll, fine. Got me.

[lotus]

Mixing bridge and politics is not the brightest idea. Collecting money is
fishy as the slightest denomination of this abused activity. Most of it will
never reach the advertised target. I remember when western aids never saw
the victims, they ended up in communist party offices. Instead of robbing
banks as in the past recent terrorists cow the naive public for supply. I do
not like the idea bridge become a vehicle of that kind. Fred's first idea to
oppose any activity not controllable was naturally intelligent. There are
milliards of causes for victims and aggressors alike to attack the feelings
and of course the purse of the naive public. And who dear to cry out the
king is naked. Most probably the money collected will end up as landmines or
other weaponry, but it is not part of the liberal propaganda.

Post by 2002mbyr
BBO now stooping to new low - talk about scandals. Guess they can't make
enough. Have it on good authority that ole' Fred and Uday are advertising
help to Tsunam stricken areas to build up some of the pay tourneys. What
a group.

[Giovanni Bobbio]

Post by lotus
Mixing bridge and politics is not the brightest idea. Collecting money is
fishy as the slightest denomination of this abused activity. Most of it
will never reach the advertised target. I remember when western aids never
saw
the victims, they ended up in communist party offices. Instead of robbing
banks as in the past recent terrorists cow the naive public for supply. I
do not like the idea bridge become a vehicle of that kind. Fred's first
idea to oppose any activity not controllable was naturally intelligent.
There are milliards of causes for victims and aggressors alike to attack
the feelings and of course the purse of the naive public. And who dear to
cry out the king is naked. Most probably the money collected will end up
as landmines or other weaponry, but it is not part of the liberal
propaganda.

This reads: for the good of the world money is safest in our pockets, let's
keep it there.
I think our very civilized countries need no further incentive in that
direction.

[Peter Koch Larsen]

Post by Giovanni Bobbio

Post by lotus
Mixing bridge and politics is not the brightest idea. Collecting money is
fishy as the slightest denomination of this abused activity. Most of it
will never reach the advertised target. I remember when western aids never
saw
the victims, they ended up in communist party offices. Instead of robbing
banks as in the past recent terrorists cow the naive public for supply. I
do not like the idea bridge become a vehicle of that kind. Fred's first
idea to oppose any activity not controllable was naturally intelligent.
There are milliards of causes for victims and aggressors alike to attack
the feelings and of course the purse of the naive public. And who dear to
cry out the king is naked. Most probably the money collected will end up
as landmines or other weaponry, but it is not part of the liberal
propaganda.

This reads: for the good of the world money is safest in our pockets, let's
keep it there.
I think our very civilized countries need no further incentive in that
direction.
--
Giovanni
Italy

Well said, Giovanni.

/Peter

[David Stevenson]

Post by Giovanni Bobbio

Post by lotus
Mixing bridge and politics is not the brightest idea. Collecting money is
fishy as the slightest denomination of this abused activity. Most of it
will never reach the advertised target. I remember when western aids never
saw
the victims, they ended up in communist party offices. Instead of robbing
banks as in the past recent terrorists cow the naive public for supply. I
do not like the idea bridge become a vehicle of that kind. Fred's first
idea to oppose any activity not controllable was naturally intelligent.
There are milliards of causes for victims and aggressors alike to attack
the feelings and of course the purse of the naive public. And who dear to
cry out the king is naked. Most probably the money collected will end up
as landmines or other weaponry, but it is not part of the liberal
propaganda.

This reads: for the good of the world money is safest in our pockets, let's
keep it there.
I think our very civilized countries need no further incentive in that
direction.

The amount of money and time donated to good causes by people in
England is staggeringly high. I have always presumed that it is similar
in other civilised countries.

[Clive Jones]

Post by Giovanni Bobbio

Post by lotus
Mixing bridge and politics is not the brightest idea. Collecting money is
fishy as the slightest denomination of this abused activity. Most of it
will never reach the advertised target. [...]

This reads: for the good of the world money is safest in our pockets, let's
keep it there.
I think our very civilized countries need no further incentive in that
direction.

Or, more... er... charitably: if you want to help the victims of
disaster, give money to well-trusted and established charities with a
history of providing effective relief. Otherwise, there's no telling
where your money will actually end up.

--Clive.

[Barry Margolin]

Post by lotus
Mixing bridge and politics is not the brightest idea. Collecting money is
fishy as the slightest denomination of this abused activity.

What's so bad about it?

There have been similar promotions in other industries. For instance, I
remember a number of times when stores or credit card companies have
pledged to donate a percentage of customer purchases to homeless
shelters during harsh winters. They often tie these in with the
Christmas season, when people are in a giving mood.

It tends to be a little fishy because the fine print usually says that
they're guaranteeing to donate at least a certain amount. If that
amount is more than the percentage of purchases that they ever hope to
to get during the promotion, then they're really making a fixed donation
and the purchases don't really contribute anything. It's just a
marketing gimmick.

But if they do some good for the world, why should we deny them a little
bit of marketing? It's better than a commercial suggesting that fat
guys can get hot girls by drinking beer.

[Peter Clinch]

Post by lotus
Mixing bridge and politics is not the brightest idea. Collecting money is
fishy as the slightest denomination of this abused activity. Most of it will
never reach the advertised target. I remember when western aids never saw
the victims, they ended up in communist party offices. Instead of robbing
banks as in the past recent terrorists cow the naive public for supply. I do
not like the idea bridge become a vehicle of that kind. Fred's first idea to
oppose any activity not controllable was naturally intelligent. There are
milliards of causes for victims and aggressors alike to attack the feelings
and of course the purse of the naive public. And who dear to cry out the
king is naked. Most probably the money collected will end up as landmines or
other weaponry, but it is not part of the liberal propaganda.

Post by 2002mbyr
BBO now stooping to new low - talk about scandals. Guess they can't make
enough. Have it on good authority that ole' Fred and Uday are advertising
help to Tsunam stricken areas to build up some of the pay tourneys.

What

Post by lotus

Post by 2002mbyr
a group.

These two posts are currently tied for the twat.games.bridge 2005
award. I sincerely hope they are not surpassed.

Peter.
New York, NY.

[lotus]

NATIONAL POST Vol.7 No 62 Friday, January 7 Front Page:

TORONTO - A Canadian government panel ruled tree years ago that some of the
money collected by the main Tamil relief organization now soliciting
donations for tsunami victims in Sri Lanka had been used to buy guns for
terrorists. The Immigration and Refugee Board said there was reliable
evidence from three sources that affirm or strongly suggest that founds
collected .... had been diverted to pay for weapons. sic! Continue to read
pls.

By the way I did not find Peter Clinch among the benefactors for the 9/11
victims. His money maybe found a better use, see above.

[Ian Payn]

Post by lotus
TORONTO - A Canadian government panel ruled tree years ago that some of the
money collected by the main Tamil relief organization now soliciting
donations for tsunami victims in Sri Lanka had been used to buy guns for
terrorists. The Immigration and Refugee Board said there was reliable
evidence from three sources that affirm or strongly suggest that founds
collected .... had been diverted to pay for weapons. sic! Continue to read
pls.
By the way I did not find Peter Clinch among the benefactors for the 9/11
victims. His money maybe found a better use, see above.

++++At least he uses his name. Tread carefully when you (think you) tread
upon my friends, "lotus", tread carefully...

[John (MadDog) Probst]

In article <***@entanet>, Ian Payn <***@CharterChambers.com>
writes

Post by Ian Payn

Post by lotus
TORONTO - A Canadian government panel ruled tree years ago that some of

the

Post by lotus
money collected by the main Tamil relief organization now soliciting
donations for tsunami victims in Sri Lanka had been used to buy guns for
terrorists. The Immigration and Refugee Board said there was reliable
evidence from three sources that affirm or strongly suggest that founds
collected .... had been diverted to pay for weapons. sic! Continue to read
pls.
By the way I did not find Peter Clinch among the benefactors for the 9/11
victims. His money maybe found a better use, see above.

++++At least he uses his name. Tread carefully when you (think you) tread
upon my friends, "lotus", tread carefully...

I stand with Peter and close to Ian on this point. Watch where you put
your feet ......

[David Stevenson]

Post by John (MadDog) Probst
writes

Post by Ian Payn

Post by lotus
TORONTO - A Canadian government panel ruled tree years ago that some of

the

Post by lotus
money collected by the main Tamil relief organization now soliciting
donations for tsunami victims in Sri Lanka had been used to buy guns for
terrorists. The Immigration and Refugee Board said there was reliable
evidence from three sources that affirm or strongly suggest that founds
collected .... had been diverted to pay for weapons. sic! Continue to read
pls.
By the way I did not find Peter Clinch among the benefactors for the 9/11
victims. His money maybe found a better use, see above.

++++At least he uses his name. Tread carefully when you (think you) tread
upon my friends, "lotus", tread carefully...

I stand with Peter and close to Ian on this point. Watch where you put
your feet ......

There are basically three types of people where giving is concerned.

1] Those who give freely, but like others to know about it
2] Those who give freely, but see no reason to tell anyone
3] Those who do not give freely

Presumption that someone whose name is not listed belongs to 3] rather
than 2] seems totally unreasonable, and I have an admiration for 2]
rather than 1].

[lotus]

Dear defenders of the trumpeted but nonexistent ethical spirit,
BBO itself is a private initiative with all the best wishes proclaimed in
its basic rules. Surely that was the intention side of it. And one time all
was for free.

But, as we all know even the corps of Christ was not guarded without paying
the guards, lol. So, BBO made quite a fine balance of totally free part of
it and introduced ACBL sanctioned tournaments as a modest paying part among
other means to help bridge professionals.

For more and more understandable reasons BBO introduced the private clubs
solution as well. That permits to sweep lots of problems into that corner,
out of the headaches of BBO founders.

How the hell can one expect the ideal world will be established in isolated
islands created by self proclaimed prophets. My prediction was from the
beginning what happens now!

Abaluci, or whoever behind that nick, collected a bunch of arrogant,
insolent puffed-up bridgers into a group. My opinion that he/she made a big
service to BBO community by isolating these unwanted elements from the
others.

It would be an error to dissolve this private club. More their members are
in themselves, less friction is the result for the others. If somebody is
sensitive to unethical behavior, leave that place immediately.

Do not expect that Fred will dry up every cry. Let evolution take its
course. BBO is very well established on the principles of freedom and
integrity of members. You can join to a nasty table and you can join to a
nasty club. If you do not like it, leave it.

Ok, Ok, if somebody steps up in the name of advertised principles that has
been crushed to the ground, instead of being upset just regard them as
doubletalk. Not the first in history, lol. And the cover-up is as old as
humanity, I think.

So, if you got a free horse, do not start to check its teeth
immediately!!!!!!!!

Post by Hans Klopp
Dear Fellow Bridge Lovers,
Recently there was a thread on Bridge Base Forum regarding a cheating
accusation leveled at a player by an Abalucy Director who also happens
to be a BBO/ACBL Director, and one of the principals of the Abalucy
Club. The player accused was most upset by this and posted about it.
Things quickly got out of control and certain "yellows" of BBO were
bashing this poor woman who was innocent but felt awful having been
accused. Who can blame her?
Today I went to update myself on this Forum thread, only to discover
it had been deleted!
The thread and many posts seemed to suggest there were ongoing
problems with this Abalucy tournament and some of the people who run
it, and the intimation was strong that Uday and BBO management have
historically protected this club and Abadaba no matter what problems
were brought to the fore.
Abalucy is supposedly an ethically based bridge club, so what
justification is there for unethical behaviour by one of it's
principals on the BBO server? Beyond that, how can the ACBL affiliate
itself with anyone who is swathed in controversy over an ethical
violation as serious as accusing someone of being unethical. Removing
the thread from the Forum will not make the issue go away.
Free speech, though not enjoyed worldwide, is a fine principle. If
there is nothing ugly to hide, why delete an entire thread? If this
accusation was made, why has the Director not been severely
sanctioned, and perhaps even been banned from BBO? Will she be
permitted to continue to run the club and direct in ACBL sanctioned
events?
Let's air this out for once and all. Is Abalucy the ethical Club it
professes to be? If not, PLEASE let's disband the club so as not to
harm BBO and the game of bridge itself irreparably.
Hans

[Dwayne Hoffman]

I did something that no other person did - talk to the party that was
upset over what happened. After seeing first hand the actual happenings,
all I can say is that it's no wonder that the quality of the Abalucy
games hosted ranks of a standard at or just slightly above any I/N
program game at large regionals and/or NABC's. Matter of fact, I'd be
happy to give some of our local I/N'ers against that field - I think
they'd play BETTER!

[craig]

I did something that no other person did - talk to the party that was upset
over what happened. After seeing first hand the actual happenings, all I
can say is that it's no wonder that the quality of the Abalucy games hosted
ranks of a standard at or just slightly above any I/N program game at large
regionals and/or NABC's. Matter of fact, I'd be happy to give some of our
local I/N'ers against that field - I think they'd play BETTER!

Far be it from me to defend AbaLucy, but the original poster talked about
the ethics of the club and its owners, not the quality of its games.

I think it's a fair assumption that any club that announces they are
planning on increasing membership by 40%, as AbaLucy recently did, is not
worried so much about the quality of their fields as they are about size of
their clubs/tourneys. It's a given that there will be a resulting fall-off
in field quality if you plan to expand size beyond your critical mass.

[Dwayne Hoffman]

Give ya a little tidbit - they were letting in so many folks who didn't
have the skills just to fill out the games!!!! Bring some of 'em on with
my mentees. :-)

[Ron Lel]

Post by Dwayne Hoffman
Give ya a little tidbit - they were letting in so many folks who didn't
have the skills just to fill out the games!!!! Bring some of 'em on with
my mentees. :-)

Dwayne, please......
You may have a gripe, but lets not get ridiculous here.

Ron

[Dwayne Hoffman]

I STRONGLY disagree that I made an error. Furthermore, I can prove my
statements. I don't have a gripe, it's called reality, and I'm quite
confident in my feelings on this subject.

Folks, this is the common and not the rare when it involves this clique.
It stems from the so-called leadership. Think that's why I enjoy live
bridge and appreciate the value of friendships and community again. With
that said, as mentioned, I talked to the party, and I got the exact
specs on what was said, what happened, and so on. No one can claim that.

With all the fuss, I'm going to have ice cream now. :-)

[craig]

Post by Dwayne Hoffman
I STRONGLY disagree that I made an error. Furthermore, I can prove my
statements. I don't have a gripe, it's called reality, and I'm quite
confident in my feelings on this subject.
Folks, this is the common and not the rare when it involves this clique.
It stems from the so-called leadership. Think that's why I enjoy live
bridge and appreciate the value of friendships and community again. With
that said, as mentioned, I talked to the party, and I got the exact specs
on what was said, what happened, and so on. No one can claim that.
With all the fuss, I'm going to have ice cream now. :-)

This thread never had a thing to do with whether their club games were good
or not. OK, it is sort of amusing they call Ability an experts club given
the general level of play. It's not, it's a friends club. I don't think many
people dispute that and it's a silly point to make (ammo) over and over that
it really is not. But, if you look at their "principles statement" they
emphasize "fret" (those who don't know, forget it-- its just an acronym)
these days over level of play.

Now, fret goes much more to ethics than anything else. And, this thread was
started over whether the owners of the club followed their own principles.
Now a goodly number of us know that you have reason to question fret and
that is fine. But saying "the club's level of play no better than
intermediate/novice" continually has nothing to do with whether the owners
practice their own principles.

Anyway, hope your ice cream was good. (Check out Ben & Jerry's New York
Chocolate Chunk some time!)

[craig]

Post by craig

Post by Dwayne Hoffman
I STRONGLY disagree that I made an error. Furthermore, I can prove my
statements. I don't have a gripe, it's called reality, and I'm quite
confident in my feelings on this subject.
Folks, this is the common and not the rare when it involves this clique.
It stems from the so-called leadership. Think that's why I enjoy live
bridge and appreciate the value of friendships and community again. With
that said, as mentioned, I talked to the party, and I got the exact specs
on what was said, what happened, and so on. No one can claim that.
With all the fuss, I'm going to have ice cream now. :-)

This thread never had a thing to do with whether their club games were good
or not. OK, it is sort of amusing they call Ability an experts club given
the general level of play. It's not, it's a friends club. I don't think many
people dispute that and it's a silly point to make (ammo) over and over that
it really is not. But, if you look at their "principles statement" they
emphasize "fret" (those who don't know, forget it-- its just an acronym)
these days over level of play.
Now, fret goes much more to ethics than anything else. And, this thread was
started over whether the owners of the club followed their own principles.
Now a goodly number of us know that you have reason to question fret and
that is fine. But saying "the club's level of play no better than
intermediate/novice" continually has nothing to do with whether the owners
practice their own principles.
Anyway, hope your ice cream was good. (Check out Ben & Jerry's New York
Chocolate Chunk some time!)

SOMETIMES I HATE SPELL CHECK SORRY
This thread never had a thing to do with whether their club games were good
or not. OK, it is sort of amusing they call Abulucy an experts club given
the general level of play. It's not, it's a friends club. I don't think
many
people dispute that and it's a silly point to make (imho) over and over
that
it really is not. But, if you look at their "principles statement" they
emphasize "frect" (those who don't know, forget it-- its just an acronym)
these days over level of play.

Now, frect goes much more to ethics than anything else. And, this thread
was
started over whether the owners of the club followed their own principles.
Now a goodly number of us know that you have reason to question frect and
that is fine. But saying "the club's level of play no better than
intermediate/novice" continually has nothing to do with whether the owners
practice their own principles.

Anyway, hope your ice cream was good. (Check out Ben & Jerry's New York
Chocolate Chunk some time!)

[Dwayne Hoffman]

Spell check is evil lol

[craig]

Post by Dwayne Hoffman
Spell check is evil lol

Ya, we know all about evil these days!

[Nigel]

[Dwayne Hoffman]

Post by Dwayne Hoffman
Give ya a little tidbit - they were letting
in so many folks who didn't have the skills
just to fill out the games!!!! Bring some
of 'em on with my mentees. :-)

[Nigel]
Recently, I've been accepted as such a
probationary member of Abalucy. I approve of
an "open dooor" policy, provided that would-be
members agree with and adher to club rules.
I've now played in a several tournaments.
IMO, at Abalucy:
- The technical standard of the Bridge is
slightly higher than in the rest of BBO.
- The ethical standards are higher.

[craig]

Post by Nigel
[Dwayne Hoffman]

Post by Dwayne Hoffman
Give ya a little tidbit - they were letting
in so many folks who didn't have the skills
just to fill out the games!!!! Bring some
of 'em on with my mentees. :-)

[Nigel]
Recently, I've been accepted as such a
probationary member of Abalucy. I approve of
an "open dooor" policy, provided that would-be
members agree with and adher to club rules.
I've now played in a several tournaments.
- The technical standard of the Bridge is
slightly higher than in the rest of BBO.
- The ethical standards are higher.

"Abalucy is supposedly an ethically based bridge club, so what
justification is there for unethical behaviour by one of it's
principals on the BBO server? "

Whatever the level of play in AbaLucy is well beyond the point. Even the
level of ethics within the club generally is not the question at hand. You
make the same mistake as Dwayne.

[ece]

Hi ,
the thread is not in the BBO forum's anymore.
But if you ask around you might find someone who has the copy of thread.