SAYC: ID - 1H - 2C - 3H or 4C

[James Dow Allen]

The subject line asks it all. In SAYC what is the meaning of uncontested auction
1C 1H
2C 3H
or
1C 1H
2C 4C
Are these bids forcing? If not, is responder supposed to make a 2S bid with any force? Does 2S promise a rebid?

Is there a good URL to find answers to such questions?

Jamie
(email in From doesn't work.)

[[e-mail]]

Post by James Dow Allen
The subject line asks it all. In SAYC what is the meaning of uncontested auction
1C 1H
2C 3H
or
1C 1H
2C 4C
Are these bids forcing? If not, is responder supposed to make a 2S bid with any force? Does 2S promise a rebid?
Is there a good URL to find answers to such questions?
Jamie
(email in From doesn't work.)

SAYC does not specifically address auction after opener's rebid of the original suit.

http://web2.acbl.org/documentlibrary/play/SP3%20(bk)%20single%20pages.pdf

That is the complete definition of the system. Extrapolate without discussion at your own risk.

[Ronald]

Post by James Dow Allen
The subject line asks it all. In SAYC what is the meaning of uncontested auction
1C 1H
2C 3H
or
1C 1H
2C 4C
Are these bids forcing? If not, is responder supposed to make a 2S bid
with any force? Does 2S promise a rebid?
Is there a good URL to find answers to such questions?
Jamie
(email in From doesn't work.)

I don't know about SAYC but in my book the first auction is an invite. I
cannot imagine anyone playing the second as anything but a slam try. With
my regular partner 4C is Minorwood.

[jogs]

Post by James Dow Allen
The subject line asks it all. In SAYC what is the meaning of uncontested auction
1C 1H
2C 3H
or
1C 1H
2C 4C
Are these bids forcing? If not, is responder supposed to make a 2S bid with any force? Does 2S promise a rebid?
Is there a good URL to find answers to such questions?
Jamie
(email in From doesn't work.)

The first auction is invitational. I have never seen the 2nd auction in action or print.

[Player]

The first auction is invit in H. The second should set Cs and invite cues. 4d would be Redwood.

[p***@infi.net]

Post by James Dow Allen
The subject line asks it all. In SAYC what is the meaning of uncontested auction
1C 1H
2C 3H
or
1C 1H
2C 4C
Are these bids forcing? If not, is responder supposed to make a 2S bid with any force? Does 2S promise a rebid?
Is there a good URL to find answers to such questions?

Your subject line auction begins 1D-1H; 2C, so that 2S would be the fourth suit, which the booklet says could be artificial. Over 1D-1H; 2C, 3H is defined as invitational under the section Subsequent Bidding By Responder. 4C is not defined.

Over 1C-1H; 2C 2S would be natural and forcing, though experienced players would not be surprised if 2S turned out to be only three cards long. 3H would still be invitational, 4C still undefined.

[James Dow Allen]

Your subject line auction begins 1D-1H; 2C, so that 2S would be the fourth suit,...

::whack:: Yes, this was the intended auction. When
I wrote the auctions in the body of the message, I somehow
changed the opening 1D to 1C. ( ::sad:: Soon my senility
will be so advanced I'll need to stop posting altogether. ::sad:: )

My question was prompted by a hand like
Jx
AQxxxx
x
AQxx
What is your 2nd bid as responder if partner opens 1D
and rebids 2C? What if the hand is a little better?
(Jump to 2H over 1D ?) What if the hand is a little worse?
Is it correct to bid 2S to temporize?

If SAYC documentation doesn't cover these questions,
what would experts who play a SAYC-like system bid?

Jamie

[[e-mail]]

Post by James Dow Allen

Your subject line auction begins 1D-1H; 2C, so that 2S would be the fourth suit,...

::whack:: Yes, this was the intended auction. When
I wrote the auctions in the body of the message, I somehow
changed the opening 1D to 1C. ( ::sad:: Soon my senility
will be so advanced I'll need to stop posting altogether. ::sad:: )
My question was prompted by a hand like
Jx
AQxxxx
x
AQxx
What is your 2nd bid as responder if partner opens 1D
and rebids 2C? What if the hand is a little better?
(Jump to 2H over 1D ?) What if the hand is a little worse?
Is it correct to bid 2S to temporize?
If SAYC documentation doesn't cover these questions,
what would experts who play a SAYC-like system bid?
Jamie

The auction 1H - 1S; 2C - 3S , which is not really equivalent, is defined as 10-11.

I personally am sure that will produce too many minus scores. But a bad agreement is better than no agreement.

Carl

[p***@infi.net]

Post by James Dow Allen

Your subject line auction begins 1D-1H; 2C, so that 2S would be the fourth suit,...

::whack:: Yes, this was the intended auction. When
I wrote the auctions in the body of the message, I somehow
changed the opening 1D to 1C. ( ::sad:: Soon my senility
will be so advanced I'll need to stop posting altogether. ::sad:: )
My question was prompted by a hand like
Jx
AQxxxx
x
AQxx
What is your 2nd bid as responder if partner opens 1D
and rebids 2C? What if the hand is a little better?
(Jump to 2H over 1D ?) What if the hand is a little worse?
Is it correct to bid 2S to temporize?
If SAYC documentation doesn't cover these questions,
what would experts who play a SAYC-like system bid?
Jamie

SAYC suffers from combining invitational jump rebids (3H rebid by responder in this auction) with fourth suit forcing only one round. That means opener (over 2S) must jump to 3NT with mild extras, leaving responder with a nasty guess -- the hand could belong in 3NT, 4H, 5C or 6C. Even if opener only rebids 2NT, responder cannot be certain 3C or 3H will be taken as forcing -- they should be, but nothing in the system description makes that clear. The same is true of a 4C on the second round -- it ought to be forcing and slammish, but you can't assume that without discussion.

Most ACBL-land experts play the fourth suit as game-forcing, or forcing to 3NT anyway; a reasonable alternative is to play responder's jump rebids as forcing. You need forcing sequences for hands such as your example rather than having two different routes to a non-forcing 3 level contract (1D-1H; 2C-3H versus 1D-1H; 2C-2S; 2NT-3H, one of those should be forcing.)

[f***@googlemail.com]

Post by James Dow Allen

Your subject line auction begins 1D-1H; 2C, so that 2S would be the fourth suit,...

::whack:: Yes, this was the intended auction. When
I wrote the auctions in the body of the message, I somehow
changed the opening 1D to 1C. ( ::sad:: Soon my senility
will be so advanced I'll need to stop posting altogether. ::sad:: )
My question was prompted by a hand like
Jx
AQxxxx
x
AQxx
What is your 2nd bid as responder if partner opens 1D
and rebids 2C? What if the hand is a little better?
(Jump to 2H over 1D ?) What if the hand is a little worse?
Is it correct to bid 2S to temporize?
If SAYC documentation doesn't cover these questions,
what would experts who play a SAYC-like system bid?
Jamie

To be blunt, I doubt there are any experts who play a 'SAYC-like' system.
However, without any more detailed agreements,

1D-1H-2C-3H is invitational with 6 or 7 hearts
1D-1H-2C-4C is forcing and shows a very powerful hand (because it's gone past 3NT)

Exactly what an 'invitational' hand looks like depends a bit on your opening bid style, but maybe

Axx
KJ109xx
x
Kxx

for the second hand, I'd expect something huge like

Ax
AKxxx
x
AQxxx

after 1D-1H-2C- responder can bid 2S 4th suit forcing and then raise clubs the next round, so an immediate jump to 4C is very confident about slam interest playing in clubs