after the opponents double Stayman

[dfm]

What agreements do you have after the opponents make a lead-directing or sacrifice-suggesting double of your Stayman 2C bid?

After a recent disaster, I came up with the following idea: Opener's double of 2C promises a stopper, opener's pass denies one, and responder then bids 2 of the 4-card major he DOESN'T have, or 2D with both. Does this make sense? Does it have a name? Is there a better agreement?

[Barry Margolin]

Post by dfm
What agreements do you have after the opponents make a lead-directing or
sacrifice-suggesting double of your Stayman 2C bid?
After a recent disaster, I came up with the following idea: Opener's double

I think you mean redouble.

Post by dfm
of 2C promises a stopper, opener's pass denies one, and responder then bids 2
of the 4-card major he DOESN'T have, or 2D with both. Does this make sense?
Does it have a name? Is there a better agreement?

I think that most people play that redouble of Stayman or transfers is
to play -- opener has length in the suit and he thinks he can make it,
even though RHO also has length. People often double with Axxxx or
AQxxx; if opener has KJTxx, he can handle it.

[dfm]

Post by Barry Margolin

Post by dfm
What agreements do you have after the opponents make a lead-directing or
sacrifice-suggesting double of your Stayman 2C bid?
After a recent disaster, I came up with the following idea: Opener's double

I think you mean redouble.

Post by dfm
of 2C promises a stopper, opener's pass denies one, and responder then bids 2
of the 4-card major he DOESN'T have, or 2D with both. Does this make sense?
Does it have a name? Is there a better agreement?

I think that most people play that redouble of Stayman or transfers is
to play -- opener has length in the suit and he thinks he can make it,
even though RHO also has length. People often double with Axxxx or
AQxxx; if opener has KJTxx, he can handle it.
--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA

Yes, of course, I meant redouble. Sorry.

[Eddie Grove]

Post by dfm

Post by Barry Margolin

Post by dfm
What agreements do you have after the opponents make a lead-directing or
sacrifice-suggesting double of your Stayman 2C bid?
After a recent disaster, I came up with the following idea: Opener's double

I think you mean redouble.

Post by dfm
of 2C promises a stopper, opener's pass denies one, and responder then bids 2
of the 4-card major he DOESN'T have, or 2D with both. Does this make sense?
Does it have a name? Is there a better agreement?

I think that most people play that redouble of Stayman or transfers is
to play -- opener has length in the suit and he thinks he can make it,
even though RHO also has length. People often double with Axxxx or
AQxxx; if opener has KJTxx, he can handle it.

Yes, of course, I meant redouble. Sorry.

Why go to extra effort to play the major from opener's side,
especially if you know that opener does not stop clubs?
Even if the positioning does not matter double dummy, it is easier for
the defense to untangle if the short suit leads. E.g. how does a
doubler with Axxxx on lead know whether to play partner for x vs Kx?

Eddie

[Dave Flower]

Post by dfm
What agreements do you have after the opponents make a lead-directing or sacrifice-suggesting double of your Stayman 2C bid?
After a recent disaster, I came up with the following idea: Opener's double of 2C promises a stopper, opener's pass denies one, and responder then bids 2 of the 4-card major he DOESN'T have, or 2D with both. Does this make sense? Does it have a name? Is there a better agreement?

And what does responder bid with a 5540 Yarborough ?

Dave Flower

[Dave Flower]

Post by Dave Flower

Post by dfm
What agreements do you have after the opponents make a lead-directing or sacrifice-suggesting double of your Stayman 2C bid?
After a recent disaster, I came up with the following idea: Opener's double of 2C promises a stopper, opener's pass denies one, and responder then bids 2 of the 4-card major he DOESN'T have, or 2D with both. Does this make sense? Does it have a name? Is there a better agreement?

And what does responder bid with a 5540 Yarborough ?
Dave Flower

Sorry, I meant 4450 of course
Dave Flower

[[e-mail]]

Post by dfm
What agreements do you have after the opponents make a lead-directing or sacrifice-suggesting double of your Stayman 2C bid?
After a recent disaster, I came up with the following idea: Opener's double of 2C promises a stopper, opener's pass denies one, and responder then bids 2 of the 4-card major he DOESN'T have, or 2D with both. Does this make sense? Does it have a name? Is there a better agreement?

Foolish me. I thought it was standard for opener's pass to promise a stopper, redouble to suggest doubler has made a big mistake, and any bid to deny a stopper.

Carl

[dfm]

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by dfm
What agreements do you have after the opponents make a lead-directing or sacrifice-suggesting double of your Stayman 2C bid?
After a recent disaster, I came up with the following idea: Opener's double of 2C promises a stopper, opener's pass denies one, and responder then bids 2 of the 4-card major he DOESN'T have, or 2D with both. Does this make sense? Does it have a name? Is there a better agreement?

Foolish me. I thought it was standard for opener's pass to promise a stopper, redouble to suggest doubler has made a big mistake, and any bid to deny a stopper.
Carl

It is entirely possible that my idea was crap. :-) I wasn't aware of the "standard" you describe, but it makes good sense. Thanks.

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by dfm
What agreements do you have after the opponents make a lead-directing or sacrifice-suggesting double of your Stayman 2C bid?
After a recent disaster, I came up with the following idea: Opener's double of 2C promises a stopper, opener's pass denies one, and responder then bids 2 of the 4-card major he DOESN'T have, or 2D with both. Does this make sense? Does it have a name? Is there a better agreement?

Foolish me. I thought it was standard for opener's pass to promise a stopper, redouble to suggest doubler has made a big mistake, and any bid to deny a stopper.

I thought opener's pass showed no stopper and responder's redouble
then asked the stayman question again.
An immediate response showed a stopper.
It's the same but the opposite way round.
I see no immediate reason why this/your method is better
You just need to both be playing the same one!

doug

[Steve Willner]

Post by ***@verizon.net
I thought it was standard for opener's pass to promise a stopper,
redouble to suggest doubler has made a big mistake, and any bid to
deny a stopper.

As Eddie wrote, I think the other way around is pretty common, but I
wouldn't call it standard. If opener doesn't have a stopper, it would
be nice to have responder play the contract. That can't be done in NT,
but it can be done in a major. Another way to achieve this is to pass
with a stopper or with no 4cM and _transfer_ to a 4cM if holding one or
both without a stopper.

An alternative approach is to use immediate bids to show a 5cM or 4cD
suit, pass to deny those. Responder can redouble to ask again.

David Burn has suggested that redouble should show _medium_ desire to
play in 2C. With strong desire, pass first, and then pass if responder
redoubles. That's more complex, and in particular you need agreements
for what responder does if he hates the idea of playing 2Cxx.

All in all, there are lots of possible agreements, but none of them is
simple or standard. You need to decide what your priorities are
(showing/denying stoppers, showing/denying suit length, showing/denying
clubs worth playing), pick your methods accordingly, and discuss them
thoroughly including followups.

How much partnership time all this is worth is not clear.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Steve Willner

Post by ***@verizon.net
I thought it was standard for opener's pass to promise a stopper,
redouble to suggest doubler has made a big mistake, and any bid to
deny a stopper.

As Eddie wrote, I think the other way around is pretty common, but I
wouldn't call it standard. If opener doesn't have a stopper, it would
be nice to have responder play the contract.

That is a secondary consideration. The main thing is that we probably need to play in a suit period. And so it pays to start the suit-showing before advancer bids 3C.

Carl

[kingfish]

Post by dfm
What agreements do you have after the opponents make a lead-directing or sacrifice-suggesting double of your Stayman 2C bid?
After a recent disaster, I came up with the following idea: Opener's double of 2C promises a stopper, opener's pass denies one, and responder then bids 2 of the 4-card major he DOESN'T have, or 2D with both. Does this make sense? Does it have a name? Is there a better agreement?

I have played a defense for over 20 years which is similar to interference to Stayman auctions. Starting with 2CX, Opener passes to show an interest in playing 2CXX, and XX sows no stopper for no-trump. All other bids show a stopper and retain their natural meaning. If the opponents bid a suit over our 2C call, Opener doubles to show no stopper, pass invites double. All bids show a stopper and are natural. The concept is that both sides of the table can now effect a penalty, and both sides avoid saving the overcaller from disaster by bidding i front of partner. Of course, Stayman must promise values to make this approach playable.

[Lorne]

Post by dfm
What agreements do you have after the opponents make a lead-directing or sacrifice-suggesting double of your Stayman 2C bid?
After a recent disaster, I came up with the following idea: Opener's double of 2C promises a stopper, opener's pass denies one, and responder then bids 2 of the 4-card major he DOESN'T have, or 2D with both. Does this make sense? Does it have a name? Is there a better agreement?

Rdbl to play (can be pulled if partner is not suitable)
Pass shows a stop, may have a major
Bid denies a stop, normal stayman meaning.

After a pass, partner bids 2D to ask for a major and is at least an
invite so jump when max, 2H = 5-4 or 4-5 weak (pass or correct) but that
assumes you can bid 2C with a weak hand 5-4 in the majors.

[Dave Flower]

Post by Lorne

Post by dfm
What agreements do you have after the opponents make a lead-directing or sacrifice-suggesting double of your Stayman 2C bid?
After a recent disaster, I came up with the following idea: Opener's double of 2C promises a stopper, opener's pass denies one, and responder then bids 2 of the 4-card major he DOESN'T have, or 2D with both. Does this make sense? Does it have a name? Is there a better agreement?

Rdbl to play (can be pulled if partner is not suitable)
Pass shows a stop, may have a major
Bid denies a stop, normal stayman meaning.
After a pass, partner bids 2D to ask for a major and is at least an
invite so jump when max, 2H = 5-4 or 4-5 weak (pass or correct) but that
assumes you can bid 2C with a weak hand 5-4 in the majors.

This creates insoluble problems if responder holds:

x x x x
x x x x
x x x x x
void

1NT pass 2C dble
pass pass ?

Dave Flower

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by Dave Flower

Post by Lorne

Post by dfm
What agreements do you have after the opponents make a lead-directing or sacrifice-suggesting double of your Stayman 2C bid?
After a recent disaster, I came up with the following idea: Opener's double of 2C promises a stopper, opener's pass denies one, and responder then bids 2 of the 4-card major he DOESN'T have, or 2D with both. Does this make sense? Does it have a name? Is there a better agreement?

Rdbl to play (can be pulled if partner is not suitable)
Pass shows a stop, may have a major
Bid denies a stop, normal stayman meaning.
After a pass, partner bids 2D to ask for a major and is at least an
invite so jump when max, 2H = 5-4 or 4-5 weak (pass or correct) but that
assumes you can bid 2C with a weak hand 5-4 in the majors.

x x x x
x x x x
x x x x x
void
1NT pass 2C dble
pass pass ?

Some of us think that garbage/crawling/whatever stayman is a waste of
time and don't have it on our cards

doug

[Dave Flower]

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by Dave Flower

Post by Lorne

Post by dfm
What agreements do you have after the opponents make a lead-directing or sacrifice-suggesting double of your Stayman 2C bid?
After a recent disaster, I came up with the following idea: Opener's double of 2C promises a stopper, opener's pass denies one, and responder then bids 2 of the 4-card major he DOESN'T have, or 2D with both. Does this make sense? Does it have a name? Is there a better agreement?

Rdbl to play (can be pulled if partner is not suitable)
Pass shows a stop, may have a major
Bid denies a stop, normal stayman meaning.
After a pass, partner bids 2D to ask for a major and is at least an
invite so jump when max, 2H = 5-4 or 4-5 weak (pass or correct) but that
assumes you can bid 2C with a weak hand 5-4 in the majors.

x x x x
x x x x
x x x x x
void
1NT pass 2C dble
pass pass ?

Some of us think that garbage/crawling/whatever stayman is a waste of
time and don't have it on our cards
doug

But it would certainly be useful in a weak hand, short in clubs - not unlikely given the bidding sequence

Dave Flower

[[e-mail]]

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by Dave Flower

Post by Lorne

Post by dfm
What agreements do you have after the opponents make a lead-directing or sacrifice-suggesting double of your Stayman 2C bid?
After a recent disaster, I came up with the following idea: Opener's double of 2C promises a stopper, opener's pass denies one, and responder then bids 2 of the 4-card major he DOESN'T have, or 2D with both. Does this make sense? Does it have a name? Is there a better agreement?

Rdbl to play (can be pulled if partner is not suitable)
Pass shows a stop, may have a major
Bid denies a stop, normal stayman meaning.
After a pass, partner bids 2D to ask for a major and is at least an
invite so jump when max, 2H = 5-4 or 4-5 weak (pass or correct) but that
assumes you can bid 2C with a weak hand 5-4 in the majors.

x x x x
x x x x
x x x x x
void
1NT pass 2C dble
pass pass ?

Some of us think that garbage/crawling/whatever stayman is a waste of
time and don't have it on our cards
doug

Stayman with 4=4=5=0 is just Stayman with no adjective. In the original convention.

The adjective refers to the auction 1NT - 2C; 2D - 2H; ? in which opener's only options are P and 2S.

Carl

[Lorne]

Post by Dave Flower

Post by Lorne

Post by dfm
What agreements do you have after the opponents make a lead-directing or sacrifice-suggesting double of your Stayman 2C bid?
After a recent disaster, I came up with the following idea: Opener's double of 2C promises a stopper, opener's pass denies one, and responder then bids 2 of the 4-card major he DOESN'T have, or 2D with both. Does this make sense? Does it have a name? Is there a better agreement?

Rdbl to play (can be pulled if partner is not suitable)
Pass shows a stop, may have a major
Bid denies a stop, normal stayman meaning.
After a pass, partner bids 2D to ask for a major and is at least an
invite so jump when max, 2H = 5-4 or 4-5 weak (pass or correct) but that
assumes you can bid 2C with a weak hand 5-4 in the majors.

x x x x
x x x x
x x x x x
void
1NT pass 2C dble
pass pass ?
Dave Flower
True but bidding 2H to show a weak 5-4 or 4-5 hand is not always going

to be a disaster as you will often get to a 4-4 fit and partner will not
always pass the dble of 2C.

You will have more gains than losses doing this IMO.