Passing a redouble -- penalties?

[garrybl]

I'm interested in the opinion of everyone -- no matter what level.
In how many situations where one player makes a take-out double and
the next player redoubles do you (or should you) play a pass for
penalties?
Specifically: after a take-out double of a one-bid opening, and also
after the double of a response at the one-level if the next hand
redoubles (respectively good hand/ support xx) should a pass be to
play?

How many people play passes at the the two-level or higher as take-
out?

In each case your reasoning would be of interest!

Thanks.

Barry

[raija d]

Post by garrybl
I'm interested in the opinion of everyone -- no matter what level.
In how many situations where one player makes a take-out double and
the next player redoubles do you (or should you) play a pass for
penalties?
Specifically: after a take-out double of a one-bid opening, and also
after the double of a response at the one-level if the next hand
redoubles (respectively good hand/ support xx) should a pass be to
play?

Hi,

First case, I don't play Pass as penalty. By my logic, there are not enough
points in the deck for the fourth player to have values for a penalty Pass.
Pass tells the Takeout-Doubler that I don't have a preference between the
three unbid suits into what suit he should pull.

In the second case, there is logically a possibility that the advancer to
the double has some values but I still play that a Pass over the Rdbl still
says "no preference between the unbid suits". Over a support-Redouble,
trump stack is unlikely and over a goodhand-Redouble, adequate values are
unlikely.
Raija

[raija d]

Post by raija d

Post by garrybl
I'm interested in the opinion of everyone -- no matter what level.
In how many situations where one player makes a take-out double and
the next player redoubles do you (or should you) play a pass for
penalties?
Specifically: after a take-out double of a one-bid opening, and also
after the double of a response at the one-level if the next hand
redoubles (respectively good hand/ support xx) should a pass be to
play?

Hi,
First case, I don't play Pass as penalty. By my logic, there are not
enough points in the deck for the fourth player to have values for a
penalty Pass. Pass tells the Takeout-Doubler that I don't have a
preference between the three unbid suits into what suit he should pull.
In the second case, there is logically a possibility that the advancer to
the double has some values but I still play that a Pass over the Rdbl
still says "no preference between the unbid suits". Over a
support-Redouble, trump stack is unlikely and over a goodhand-Redouble,
adequate values are unlikely.
Raija

I should add that the second case is actually two cases. Of which, I was
thinking 1C-P-1H-Dbl-Rdbl, ie. they have bid two suits. If it should go
1D-P-P-Dbl-Rdbl, now Pass is business when the likelihood of both adequate
values and a stacked suit over the opener are real.

Raija

[Andrew]

Post by garrybl
I'm interested in the opinion of everyone -- no matter what level.
In how many situations where one player makes a take-out double and
the next player redoubles do you (or should you) play a pass for
penalties?
Specifically: after a take-out double of a one-bid opening, and also
after the double of a response at the one-level if the next hand
redoubles (respectively good hand/ support xx) should a pass be to
play?
How many people play passes at the the two-level or higher as take-
out?
In each case your reasoning would be of interest!
Thanks.
Barry

One general rule is that pass is for penalty if the passer sits behind
the suit bidder.

* 1C-X-XX-P = Not a penalty pass. Shows no opinion about where to
play.

* 1C-P-P-X
XX-P = Penalty pass.

It is much easier to collect a number when the long trump holding is
behind the declarer's long suit. A trump holding like KJ8xx can easily
be worth the trump tricks behind AQTxx, but might only be worth 0 or 1
trick in front of it.


Andrew

[h***@yahoo.com]

Post by garrybl
I'm interested in the opinion of everyone -- no matter what level.
In how many situations where one player makes a take-out double and
the next player redoubles do you (or should you) play a pass for
penalties?
Specifically: after a take-out double of a one-bid opening, and also
after the double of a response at the one-level if the next hand
redoubles (respectively good hand/ support xx) should a pass be to
play?
How many people play passes at the the two-level or higher as take-
out?
In each case your reasoning would be of interest!
Thanks.
Barry

I have always like Alan Truscott's view: the pass of a redouble of 1m
shows length in the minor and no 4-card suit at the 1 level and no 5
card suit at the 2 level. The reason is that this works is that if
the minor is short and advancer does not have a 4-card suit at the 1
level or a 5-card suit at the 2-level, then advancer will always have
at least 3 cards in their suit (3=3=3=4) and could have 4 (3=3=3=4).
This isn't so much a penalty pass as a warning to partner of what
advancer doesn't have.

The pass of a redouble of 1M simply says that advancer has nothing
convenient to bid. He could be as short as a singleton if he is
1=4=4=4 or doubleton is 3=2=4=4, so no inferences about length are
available.

Henrysun909

[Stephen Fischer]

Post by garrybl
I'm interested in the opinion of everyone -- no matter what level.
In how many situations where one player makes a take-out double and
the next player redoubles do you (or should you) play a pass for
penalties?
Specifically: after a take-out double of a one-bid opening, and also
after the double of a response at the one-level if the next hand
redoubles (respectively good hand/ support xx) should a pass be to
play?
How many people play passes at the the two-level or higher as take-
out?
In each case your reasoning would be of interest!
Thanks.
Barry

My standard agreement in current regular partnerships is that when
partner makes a takeout double and RHO redoubles, my pass is for
penalties. The only exception is the specific auction (Opening suit
bid) - X - (XX).

It rarely comes up, but it's useful to have an agreement when it does.
Lots of points can be swung on misunderstandings in these situations.

[h***@swipnet.se]

Post by Stephen Fischer

Post by garrybl
I'm interested in the opinion of everyone -- no matter what level.
In how many situations where one player makes a take-out double and
the next player redoubles do you (or should you) play a pass for
penalties?
Specifically: after a take-out double of a one-bid opening, and also
after the double of a response at the one-level if the next hand
redoubles (respectively good hand/ support xx) should a pass be to
play?
How many people play passes at the the two-level or higher as take-
out?
In each case your reasoning would be of interest!
Thanks.
Barry

My standard agreement in current regular partnerships is that when
partner makes a takeout double and RHO redoubles, my pass is for
penalties.  The only exception is the specific auction (Opening suit
bid) - X - (XX).
It rarely comes up, but it's useful to have an agreement when it does.
Lots of points can be swung on misunderstandings in these situations.- Dölj citerad text -
- Visa citerad text -

You may agree with you partner that after 1 minor - x - xx - PASS is
for penalty making them trying to escape. You must alert of course.It
may be a good idea but i have never used it myself.

Hans Sjostrom

[h***@yahoo.com]

Post by h***@swipnet.se

Post by Stephen Fischer

Post by garrybl
I'm interested in the opinion of everyone -- no matter what level.
In how many situations where one player makes a take-out double and
the next player redoubles do you (or should you) play a pass for
penalties?
Specifically: after a take-out double of a one-bid opening, and also
after the double of a response at the one-level if the next hand
redoubles (respectively good hand/ support xx) should a pass be to
play?
How many people play passes at the the two-level or higher as take-
out?
In each case your reasoning would be of interest!
Thanks.
Barry

My standard agreement in current regular partnerships is that when
partner makes a takeout double and RHO redoubles, my pass is for
penalties.  The only exception is the specific auction (Opening suit
bid) - X - (XX).
It rarely comes up, but it's useful to have an agreement when it does.
Lots of points can be swung on misunderstandings in these situations.- Dölj citerad text -
- Visa citerad text -

You may agree with you partner that after 1 minor - x - xx - PASS is
for penalty making them trying to escape. You must alert of course.It
may be a good idea but i have never used it myself.
Hans Sjostrom

I'm curious about the claim that 'you must alert [the pass of 1m x xx
for penalties] of course" because I've not heard this before?

Can anyone confirm this view?

Henrysun909

[Alan Malloy]

Post by h***@yahoo.com

Post by h***@swipnet.se

Post by Stephen Fischer

Post by garrybl
I'm interested in the opinion of everyone -- no matter what level.
In how many situations where one player makes a take-out double and
the next player redoubles do you (or should you) play a pass for
penalties?
Specifically: after a take-out double of a one-bid opening, and also
after the double of a response at the one-level if the next hand
redoubles (respectively good hand/ support xx) should a pass be to
play?
How many people play passes at the the two-level or higher as take-
out?
In each case your reasoning would be of interest!
Thanks.
Barry

My standard agreement in current regular partnerships is that when
partner makes a takeout double and RHO redoubles, my pass is for
penalties. The only exception is the specific auction (Opening suit
bid) - X - (XX).
It rarely comes up, but it's useful to have an agreement when it does.
Lots of points can be swung on misunderstandings in these situations.- Dölj citerad text -
- Visa citerad text -

You may agree with you partner that after 1 minor - x - xx - PASS is
for penalty making them trying to escape. You must alert of course.It
may be a good idea but i have never used it myself.
Hans Sjostrom

I'm curious about the claim that 'you must alert [the pass of 1m x xx
for penalties] of course" because I've not heard this before?
Can anyone confirm this view?
Henrysun909

No, it is nonsense. People tend to alert anything that they, personally,
feel is non-standard, but that is a poor rule. Not only is a penalty
pass far from exotic (I know several people who play this way), it is
natural. Obviously the regulations in different countries will differ,
but the ACBL's regulations (http://www.acbl.org/play/alertChart.html)
are, broadly:

- Alert calls with a "highly unusual or unexpected" strength, shape, or
meaning
- Alert all conventional calls except Stayman, Blackwood, etc.
- Do not alert natural calls, except those specifically noted

Meanwhile, the Laws define "artificial calls". Others have already
commented on, and argued about, the fact that they do not define
"natural calls", but it seems reasonable to assume for the purposes of
the ACBL's regulations that calls which are not artificial are natural.

Artificial call: A bid, double or redouble that conveys
information (not being information taken for granted
by players generally) other than willingness to play in
the denomination named or last named, or a pass which
promises more than a specified amount of strength or
promises or denies values other than in the last suit
named.

Here the pass of 1mXX very clearly indicates (1) willingness to play in
the denomination last named, (2) values in the suit last named, and (3)
no other information which would cause it to be artificial. So there
really is no excuse for alerting it.

[Nick France]

Post by Alan Malloy

Post by h***@yahoo.com

Post by h***@swipnet.se

Post by Stephen Fischer

Post by garrybl
I'm interested in the opinion of everyone -- no matter what level.
In how many situations where one player makes a take-out double and
the next player redoubles do you (or should you) play a pass for
penalties?
Specifically: after a take-out double of a one-bid opening, and also
after the double of a response at the one-level if the next hand
redoubles (respectively good hand/ support xx) should a pass be to
play?
How many people play passes at the the two-level or higher as take-
out?
In each case your reasoning would be of interest!
Thanks.
Barry

My standard agreement in current regular partnerships is that when
partner makes a takeout double and RHO redoubles, my pass is for
penalties.  The only exception is the specific auction (Opening suit
bid) - X - (XX).
It rarely comes up, but it's useful to have an agreement when it does.
Lots of points can be swung on misunderstandings in these situations.- Dölj citerad text -
- Visa citerad text -

You may agree with you partner that after 1 minor - x - xx - PASS is
for penalty making them trying to escape. You must alert of course.It
may be a good idea but i have never used it myself.
Hans Sjostrom

I'm curious about the claim that 'you must alert [the pass of 1m x xx
for penalties] of course" because I've not heard this before?
Can anyone confirm this view?
Henrysun909

No, it is nonsense. People tend to alert anything that they, personally,
feel is non-standard, but that is a poor rule. Not only is a penalty
pass far from exotic (I know several people who play this way), it is
natural. Obviously the regulations in different countries will differ,
but the ACBL's regulations (http://www.acbl.org/play/alertChart.html)
- Alert calls with a "highly unusual or unexpected" strength, shape, or
meaning
- Alert all conventional calls except Stayman, Blackwood, etc.
- Do not alert natural calls, except those specifically noted
Meanwhile, the Laws define "artificial calls". Others have already
commented on, and argued about, the fact that they do not define
"natural calls", but it seems reasonable to assume for the purposes of
the ACBL's regulations that calls which are not artificial are natural.
Artificial call: A bid, double or redouble that conveys
information (not being information taken for granted
by players generally) other than willingness to play in
the denomination named or last named, or a pass which
promises more than a specified amount of strength or
promises or denies values other than in the last suit
named.
Here the pass of 1mXX very clearly indicates (1) willingness to play in
the denomination last named, (2) values in the suit last named, and (3)
no other information which would cause it to be artificial. So there
really is no excuse for alerting it.
--
Cheers,
        Alan (San Jose, California, USA)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

And in ABCL land it is highly unusual so is alerted. Common meaning
for (1A) - X - (XX) - P basically shows a tolerence for whatever suit
partner wants to bid. It is not a suggestion to defend. If it shows
strength it is Highly unusual and therefore alertable.

When we go to the weak 2 level (2A) - X - (XX) - P we are in the area
of no standard meaning and therefore is not an alertable pass if it is
meant as a suggestion to defend.

Nick France

[Alan Malloy]

Post by Nick France

Post by Alan Malloy

Post by h***@yahoo.com

Post by h***@swipnet.se

Post by Stephen Fischer

Post by garrybl
I'm interested in the opinion of everyone -- no matter what level.
In how many situations where one player makes a take-out double and
the next player redoubles do you (or should you) play a pass for
penalties?
Specifically: after a take-out double of a one-bid opening, and also
after the double of a response at the one-level if the next hand
redoubles (respectively good hand/ support xx) should a pass be to
play?
How many people play passes at the the two-level or higher as take-
out?
In each case your reasoning would be of interest!
Thanks.
Barry

My standard agreement in current regular partnerships is that when
partner makes a takeout double and RHO redoubles, my pass is for
penalties. The only exception is the specific auction (Opening suit
bid) - X - (XX).
It rarely comes up, but it's useful to have an agreement when it does..
Lots of points can be swung on misunderstandings in these situations.- Dölj citerad text -
- Visa citerad text -

You may agree with you partner that after 1 minor - x - xx - PASS is
for penalty making them trying to escape. You must alert of course.It
may be a good idea but i have never used it myself.
Hans Sjostrom

I'm curious about the claim that 'you must alert [the pass of 1m x xx
for penalties] of course" because I've not heard this before?
Can anyone confirm this view?
Henrysun909

No, it is nonsense. People tend to alert anything that they, personally,
feel is non-standard, but that is a poor rule. Not only is a penalty
pass far from exotic (I know several people who play this way), it is
natural. Obviously the regulations in different countries will differ,
but the ACBL's regulations (http://www.acbl.org/play/alertChart.html)
- Alert calls with a "highly unusual or unexpected" strength, shape, or
meaning
- Alert all conventional calls except Stayman, Blackwood, etc.
- Do not alert natural calls, except those specifically noted
Meanwhile, the Laws define "artificial calls". Others have already
commented on, and argued about, the fact that they do not define
"natural calls", but it seems reasonable to assume for the purposes of
the ACBL's regulations that calls which are not artificial are natural.
Artificial call: A bid, double or redouble that conveys
information (not being information taken for granted
by players generally) other than willingness to play in
the denomination named or last named, or a pass which
promises more than a specified amount of strength or
promises or denies values other than in the last suit
named.
Here the pass of 1mXX very clearly indicates (1) willingness to play in
the denomination last named, (2) values in the suit last named, and (3)
no other information which would cause it to be artificial. So there
really is no excuse for alerting it.
--
Cheers,
Alan (San Jose, California, USA)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

And in ABCL land it is highly unusual so is alerted. Common meaning
for (1A) - X - (XX) - P basically shows a tolerence for whatever suit
partner wants to bid. It is not a suggestion to defend. If it shows
strength it is Highly unusual and therefore alertable.
When we go to the weak 2 level (2A) - X - (XX) - P we are in the area
of no standard meaning and therefore is not an alertable pass if it is
meant as a suggestion to defend.
Nick France

"Having a different meaning than standard" is not the same thing as
"highly unusual". I don't think you could find opponents who would fall
out of their chair if they asked about the pass, and found it to be
penalties. "Highly unusual" is something like 1c-X-XX-P showing 4+
hearts and asking partner to bid 1h so you can describe further.

[Derek Broughton]

Post by Nick France
And in ABCL land it is highly unusual so is alerted. Common meaning
for (1A) - X - (XX) - P basically shows a tolerence for whatever suit
partner wants to bid. It is not a suggestion to defend. If it shows
strength it is Highly unusual and therefore alertable.

I know I wrote only a week or two ago, something to the effect of "Who passes
redouble for penalties, these days", but even so I'd think that the
"natural" meaning can hardly qualify as "Highly unusual"

[Nick France]

On Feb 1, 12:04 am, Stephen Fischer

Post by Stephen Fischer

Post by garrybl
I'm interested in the opinion of everyone -- no matter what level.
In how many situations where one player makes a take-out double and
the next player redoubles do you (or should you) play a pass for
penalties?
Specifically: after a take-out double of a one-bid opening, and also
after the double of a response at the one-level if the next hand
redoubles (respectively good hand/ support xx) should a pass be to
play?
How many people play passes at the the two-level or higher as take-
out?
In each case your reasoning would be of interest!
Thanks.
Barry

My standard agreement in current regular partnerships is that when
partner makes a takeout double and RHO redoubles, my pass is for
penalties.  The only exception is the specific auction (Opening suit
bid) - X - (XX).
It rarely comes up, but it's useful to have an agreement when it does.
Lots of points can be swung on misunderstandings in these situations.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I agree with you. The pass of redouble after a takeout double on the
one level is not a suggestion to defend but in all other situations it
is. I find a lot of people like to fool around with a redouble after
a weak 2 bid to try and scare the opponents out of defending.

Nick France

[Kieran Dyke]

Post by garrybl
I'm interested in the opinion of everyone -- no matter what level.
In how many situations where one player makes a take-out double and
the next player redoubles do you (or should you) play a pass for
penalties?
Specifically: after a take-out double of a one-bid opening, and also
after the double of a response at the one-level if the next hand
redoubles (respectively good hand/ support xx) should a pass be to
play?
How many people play passes at the the two-level or higher as take-
out?
In each case your reasoning would be of interest!
Thanks.
Barry

Tim Seres (Australia's greatest player for most of 50 years) played pass as
penalty over 1m and nothing to bid over 1M. It's not unlikely for advancer
to 1mX to have a lot of trumps, and there are lots of cheap bids you can
make.

Tiggrr

[ted]

Post by Kieran Dyke

Post by garrybl
I'm interested in the opinion of everyone -- no matter what level.
In how many situations where one player makes a take-out double and
the next player redoubles do you (or should you) play a pass for
penalties?
Specifically: after a take-out double of a one-bid opening, and also
after the double of a response at the one-level if the next hand
redoubles (respectively good hand/ support xx) should a pass be to
play?
How many people play passes at the the two-level or higher as take-
out?
In each case your reasoning would be of interest!
Thanks.
Barry

Tim Seres (Australia's greatest player for most of 50 years) played pass as
penalty over 1m and nothing to bid over 1M. It's not unlikely for advancer
to 1mX to have a lot of trumps, and there are lots of cheap bids you can
make.
Tiggrr

seems like fertile ground for a psychic XX if many play pass as no
opinion. I think the auction almost always goes 1y X XX p p 1(2)z.
Since you really do have a preference amongst your suits of what
strain you would prefer I think the "must save" option should be
exercised even over a 1M opening, reserving pass as "yes I really want
to play 1MXX" conversely you could play pass as showing some minimum
amount of values.

[Bill Jacobs]

Post by garrybl
I'm interested in the opinion of everyone -- no matter what level.
In how many situations where one player makes a take-out double and
the next player redoubles do you (or should you) play a pass for
penalties?
Specifically: after a take-out double of a one-bid opening, and also
after the double of a response at the one-level if the next hand
redoubles (respectively good hand/ support xx) should a pass be to
play?
How many people play passes at the the two-level or higher as take-
out?
In each case your reasoning would be of interest!
Thanks.
Barry

I have a simple rule which I strongly recommend.

Pass of the redouble is penalties if the passer is sitting OVER the
player who has shown the length.

Pass of the redouble is neutral/negative if the passer is sitting UNDER
the player who has shown the length.

The positional situation is so critical.

This applies at all levels, not just the one level. So 1S-X-XX-Pass is
neutral. But 1S-Pass-Pass-X-XX-Pass is for penalties (saying I was going
to pass 1SX). If you don't play this way, then Zia or similar will get
you every day of the week by making fake redoubles.

By the way, if Larry Cohen and David Berkowitz had played this way, they
might have won the World Pairs a few years ago.

They had an auction where LHO opened 1NT, and RHO at some point bid 3C
natural. This was passed around to Berkowitz who doubled for takeout.
Cohen was just about to pass for penalties (+500) when his RHO redoubled.

Now apparently their agreement was Pass = neutral/nothing. So the poor
guy had to forgo +1000 in order to go -200 in 3DX. From a top to a
bottom, on the second last board of the World Pairs final. They finished
second.

Cheers ... Bill

[Lorne]

Post by garrybl
I'm interested in the opinion of everyone -- no matter what level.
In how many situations where one player makes a take-out double and
the next player redoubles do you (or should you) play a pass for
penalties?
Specifically: after a take-out double of a one-bid opening, and also
after the double of a response at the one-level if the next hand
redoubles (respectively good hand/ support xx) should a pass be to
play?
How many people play passes at the the two-level or higher as take-
out?
In each case your reasoning would be of interest!

If the next player was the last to bid before partner doubled then my pass
is penalties. Otherwise it says I do not have a clear preference and
partner should assume I am equal length in at least 2 of his suits and bid
the lowest that makes sense.

You can improve on this by using NT as T/O and pass as suggestion to play if
the oppo are in spades but it is a high risk area to have agreements that
may be forgotten under pressure!