small system revision advice please

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

With one of my monthly partners we play Tartan Twos, multi 2D, multi 2C and a 2NT opening as 5-5 minors, 8-11HCP. The latter did have some relay responses to find out about exact shape or controls, but was ditched because of potential memory issues as it hardly ever comes up. The 2NT minors opener was kept in but without any relay response, there is no way for responder to make a forcing constructive bid to investigate game or slam, which is a significant flaw. I have therefore decided to revisit the 2NT opening. I have looked online into the both minors convention and found many comments that it is not a great use of the bid, because it can be easily defended against and it maps out the defenders hands should the opposition buy the contract in a major.

I've had another think and wondered about transfer pre-empts. Something like:

2NT = 3C preempt
3C,D,H = 3D,3H,3S preempt
3S = solid minor
3NT = 4 minor preempt
4C,D could be used to show strong hands in the majors with long suits, with 4H/S showing weaker preempts.

Would this be worth playing? If not, what else could an opening 2NT be used for given that all the 19+ balanced hands are covered in the Tartan and multi bids.

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
With one of my monthly partners we play Tartan Twos, multi 2D, multi 2C and a 2NT opening as 5-5 minors, 8-11HCP. The latter did have some relay responses to find out about exact shape or controls, but was ditched because of potential memory issues as it hardly ever comes up. The 2NT minors opener was kept in but without any relay response, there is no way for responder to make a forcing constructive bid to investigate game or slam, which is a significant flaw. I have therefore decided to revisit the 2NT opening. I have looked online into the both minors convention and found many comments that it is not a great use of the bid, because it can be easily defended against and it maps out the defenders hands should the opposition buy the contract in a major.
2NT = 3C preempt
3C,D,H = 3D,3H,3S preempt
3S = solid minor
3NT = 4 minor preempt
4C,D could be used to show strong hands in the majors with long suits, with 4H/S showing weaker preempts.
Would this be worth playing? If not, what else could an opening 2NT be used for given that all the 19+ balanced hands are covered in the Tartan and multi bids.

The most obvious comment about transfer preempts is that it gives the
oppo an immediate take out double of your suit and a wait-a-round
penalty double of your suit. Always desirable to have an axe for
some of the execrable preempts seen nowadays.

Another view of defending is that over a minor preempt you have both
double and the cue for take out and can show which major is longer
just as most do over 2NT for the minors.
Over a transfer preempt for a major, there is only one major in
consideration so use the two take out bids different ranges, say
for 11-15 and 16+ take outs.

I don't think there is any advantage in the bidding tho hiding
responder's hand can hinder the defence if you win the auction.

3S for a solid minor certainly invalidates the standard defensive
tactic of leading an ace. IIRC, Blue club used 3D for this.

I like 4C,D as a preempt since they cannot bid 3N over it and have
only one stab at which major to play in.
I have seen 3N used as a good major preempt instead of Namyats
and SAA is another option again of dubious frequency.

Also seen occasionally is 3N=6-5 reds, 4C=6-5 majors, 4D=6-5 blacks
with the step bid asking for the 6 card suit. Must not be too strong and
abut 8-12 might be OK. Once it gets stronger or a wider range, it is
harder to judge what to do.

OTOH, looking at system cards of better players, the use of multis
seems to be largely going out of favour. Maybe they are best for
trench warfare in the clubs where most play the cards horribly
and try to win in the auction.

doug

[Hotzenplotz]

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
With one of my monthly partners we play Tartan Twos, multi 2D, multi 2C and a 2NT opening as 5-5 minors, 8-11HCP. The latter did have some relay responses to find out about exact shape or controls, but was ditched because of potential memory issues as it hardly ever comes up. The 2NT minors opener was kept in but without any relay response, there is no way for responder to make a forcing constructive bid to investigate game or slam, which is a significant flaw. I have therefore decided to revisit the 2NT opening. I have looked online into the both minors convention and found many comments that it is not a great use of the bid, because it can be easily defended against and it maps out the defenders hands should the opposition buy the contract in a major.
2NT = 3C preempt
3C,D,H = 3D,3H,3S preempt
3S = solid minor
3NT = 4 minor preempt
4C,D could be used to show strong hands in the majors with long suits, with 4H/S showing weaker preempts.
Would this be worth playing? If not, what else could an opening 2NT be used for given that all the 19+ balanced hands are covered in the Tartan and multi bids.

The most obvious comment about transfer preempts is that it gives the
oppo an immediate take out double of your suit and a wait-a-round
penalty double of your suit. Always desirable to have an axe for
some of the execrable preempts seen nowadays.
Another view of defending is that over a minor preempt you have both
double and the cue for take out and can show which major is longer
just as most do over 2NT for the minors.
Over a transfer preempt for a major, there is only one major in
consideration so use the two take out bids different ranges, say
for 11-15 and 16+ take outs.
I don't think there is any advantage in the bidding tho hiding
responder's hand can hinder the defence if you win the auction.
3S for a solid minor certainly invalidates the standard defensive
tactic of leading an ace. IIRC, Blue club used 3D for this.
I like 4C,D as a preempt since they cannot bid 3N over it and have
only one stab at which major to play in.
I have seen 3N used as a good major preempt instead of Namyats
and SAA is another option again of dubious frequency.
Also seen occasionally is 3N=6-5 reds, 4C=6-5 majors, 4D=6-5 blacks
with the step bid asking for the 6 card suit. Must not be too strong and
abut 8-12 might be OK. Once it gets stronger or a wider range, it is
harder to judge what to do.
OTOH, looking at system cards of better players, the use of multis
seems to be largely going out of favour. Maybe they are best for
trench warfare in the clubs where most play the cards horribly
and try to win in the auction.
doug

I agree with Doug. Transfer pre empts are a very poor tactic as they give the opponents more choices in the auction.

[Lorne]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
With one of my monthly partners we play Tartan Twos, multi 2D, multi 2C and a 2NT opening as 5-5 minors, 8-11HCP. The latter did have some relay responses to find out about exact shape or controls, but was ditched because of potential memory issues as it hardly ever comes up. The 2NT minors opener was kept in but without any relay response, there is no way for responder to make a forcing constructive bid to investigate game or slam, which is a significant flaw. I have therefore decided to revisit the 2NT opening. I have looked online into the both minors convention and found many comments that it is not a great use of the bid, because it can be easily defended against and it maps out the defenders hands should the opposition buy the contract in a major.
2NT = 3C preempt
3C,D,H = 3D,3H,3S preempt
3S = solid minor
3NT = 4 minor preempt
4C,D could be used to show strong hands in the majors with long suits, with 4H/S showing weaker preempts.
Would this be worth playing? If not, what else could an opening 2NT be used for given that all the 19+ balanced hands are covered in the Tartan and multi bids.

You have one small advantage in that you can bid 3N and occasionally
play there when you have a 4m opener (and can use 4m to show a specific
type of 4M bid) but significant disadvantages in that the oppo have
extra options on all your transfer openings.

If you want to play around with other pre-empt options you might try this:

2N = either minor
3C = both minors
3D = either major
3H = both majors
3S = gambling 3N
3N = either minor, more shaoe than 2N
4C/D = solid linked major and nothing else, or one loser major + outside
ace and nothing else.
4H/S = non solid major pre-empt.

This works well with the multi + Lucas twos (and probably tartan as well
but I have never played them) and gives you extra hands you can open (ie
weak both minors or both majors) and leaves the oppo with no cue bid
when you have a single suited pre-empt.

In response to 2N or 3D use multi responses - ie 2N - (any) - 4D is pass
or correct to 5C and the oppo are still possibly unsure which minor you
have.

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by Lorne

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
With one of my monthly partners we play Tartan Twos, multi 2D, multi
2C and a 2NT opening as 5-5 minors, 8-11HCP. The latter did have some
relay responses to find out about exact shape or controls, but was
ditched because of potential memory issues as it hardly ever comes up.
The 2NT minors opener was kept in but without any relay response,
there is no way for responder to make a forcing constructive bid to
investigate game or slam, which is a significant flaw. I have
therefore decided to revisit the 2NT opening. I have looked online
into the both minors convention and found many comments that it is not
a great use of the bid, because it can be easily defended against and
it maps out the defenders hands should the opposition buy the contract
in a major.
I've had another think and wondered about transfer pre-empts.
2NT = 3C preempt
3C,D,H = 3D,3H,3S preempt
3S = solid minor
3NT = 4 minor preempt
4C,D could be used to show strong hands in the majors with long suits,
with 4H/S showing weaker preempts.
Would this be worth playing? If not, what else could an opening 2NT be
used for given that all the 19+ balanced hands are covered in the
Tartan and multi bids.

You have one small advantage in that you can bid 3N and occasionally
play there when you have a 4m opener (and can use 4m to show a specific
type of 4M bid) but significant disadvantages in that the oppo have
extra options on all your transfer openings.
2N = either minor
3C = both minors
3D = either major
3H = both majors
3S = gambling 3N
3N = either minor, more shaoe than 2N
4C/D = solid linked major and nothing else, or one loser major + outside
ace and nothing else.
4H/S = non solid major pre-empt.
This works well with the multi + Lucas twos (and probably tartan as well
but I have never played them) and gives you extra hands you can open (ie
weak both minors or both majors) and leaves the oppo with no cue bid
when you have a single suited pre-empt.
In response to 2N or 3D use multi responses - ie 2N - (any) - 4D is pass
or correct to 5C and the oppo are still possibly unsure which minor you
have.

It seems that using 3S as the gambling 3NT hand saves you from the well
known defence of leading an ace to see which suit to attack.
That's all well and good but there is an inconsistency then.
If you open 2NT with HH to 7 (or 6) then when partner wants to bid 3N,
you are exposed to the same defensive attack.
Worse still HH to 7 is more frequent than HHH to 7 so you are more
exposed than you were before (and much more so once we include HH to 6.

doug

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by Lorne

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
With one of my monthly partners we play Tartan Twos, multi 2D, multi
2C and a 2NT opening as 5-5 minors, 8-11HCP. The latter did have some
relay responses to find out about exact shape or controls, but was
ditched because of potential memory issues as it hardly ever comes up.
The 2NT minors opener was kept in but without any relay response,
there is no way for responder to make a forcing constructive bid to
investigate game or slam, which is a significant flaw. I have
therefore decided to revisit the 2NT opening. I have looked online
into the both minors convention and found many comments that it is not
a great use of the bid, because it can be easily defended against and
it maps out the defenders hands should the opposition buy the contract
in a major.
2NT = 3C preempt
3C,D,H = 3D,3H,3S preempt
3S = solid minor
3NT = 4 minor preempt
4C,D could be used to show strong hands in the majors with long suits,
with 4H/S showing weaker preempts.
Would this be worth playing? If not, what else could an opening 2NT be
used for given that all the 19+ balanced hands are covered in the
Tartan and multi bids.

You have one small advantage in that you can bid 3N and occasionally
play there when you have a 4m opener (and can use 4m to show a specific
type of 4M bid) but significant disadvantages in that the oppo have
extra options on all your transfer openings.
2N = either minor
3C = both minors
3D = either major
3H = both majors
3S = gambling 3N
3N = either minor, more shaoe than 2N
4C/D = solid linked major and nothing else, or one loser major + outside
ace and nothing else.
4H/S = non solid major pre-empt.
This works well with the multi + Lucas twos (and probably tartan as well
but I have never played them) and gives you extra hands you can open (ie
weak both minors or both majors) and leaves the oppo with no cue bid
when you have a single suited pre-empt.
In response to 2N or 3D use multi responses - ie 2N - (any) - 4D is pass
or correct to 5C and the oppo are still possibly unsure which minor you
have.

It seems that using 3S as the gambling 3NT hand saves you from the well
known defence of leading an ace to see which suit to attack.
That's all well and good but there is an inconsistency then.
If you open 2NT with HH to 7 (or 6) then when partner wants to bid 3N,
you are exposed to the same defensive attack.
Worse still HH to 7 is more frequent than HHH to 7 so you are more
exposed than you were before (and much more so once we include HH to 6.
doug

Thanks for all the comments so far.

The issue with defence leading an ace against a 2NT = minor preempt is not as bad as with a gambling 3NT opening. A 3 minor preempt can occasionally have an outside king, so there is a chance the defence will blow a trick by leading an unsupported ace.

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by Lorne

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
With one of my monthly partners we play Tartan Twos, multi 2D, multi 2C and a 2NT opening as 5-5 minors, 8-11HCP. The latter did have some relay responses to find out about exact shape or controls, but was ditched because of potential memory issues as it hardly ever comes up. The 2NT minors opener was kept in but without any relay response, there is no way for responder to make a forcing constructive bid to investigate game or slam, which is a significant flaw. I have therefore decided to revisit the 2NT opening. I have looked online into the both minors convention and found many comments that it is not a great use of the bid, because it can be easily defended against and it maps out the defenders hands should the opposition buy the contract in a major.
2NT = 3C preempt
3C,D,H = 3D,3H,3S preempt
3S = solid minor
3NT = 4 minor preempt
4C,D could be used to show strong hands in the majors with long suits, with 4H/S showing weaker preempts.
Would this be worth playing? If not, what else could an opening 2NT be used for given that all the 19+ balanced hands are covered in the Tartan and multi bids.

You have one small advantage in that you can bid 3N and occasionally
play there when you have a 4m opener (and can use 4m to show a specific
type of 4M bid) but significant disadvantages in that the oppo have
extra options on all your transfer openings.
2N = either minor
3C = both minors
3D = either major
3H = both majors
3S = gambling 3N
3N = either minor, more shaoe than 2N
4C/D = solid linked major and nothing else, or one loser major + outside
ace and nothing else.
4H/S = non solid major pre-empt.
This works well with the multi + Lucas twos (and probably tartan as well
but I have never played them) and gives you extra hands you can open (ie
weak both minors or both majors) and leaves the oppo with no cue bid
when you have a single suited pre-empt.
In response to 2N or 3D use multi responses - ie 2N - (any) - 4D is pass
or correct to 5C and the oppo are still possibly unsure which minor you
have.

Thanks for this, I am very tempted to give it a try (if partner approves). That looks an interesting way to use the three level opening bids. Harder for opponents to know what to do when there is no anchor suit. The only issue I can see is that the 3H = both majors overlaps with the Tartan 2S = 5-5 S+other, but I guess it could be used to show more extreme shape such as 6-5.

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by Lorne

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
With one of my monthly partners we play Tartan Twos, multi 2D, multi 2C and a 2NT opening as 5-5 minors, 8-11HCP. The latter did have some relay responses to find out about exact shape or controls, but was ditched because of potential memory issues as it hardly ever comes up. The 2NT minors opener was kept in but without any relay response, there is no way for responder to make a forcing constructive bid to investigate game or slam, which is a significant flaw. I have therefore decided to revisit the 2NT opening. I have looked online into the both minors convention and found many comments that it is not a great use of the bid, because it can be easily defended against and it maps out the defenders hands should the opposition buy the contract in a major.
2NT = 3C preempt
3C,D,H = 3D,3H,3S preempt
3S = solid minor
3NT = 4 minor preempt
4C,D could be used to show strong hands in the majors with long suits, with 4H/S showing weaker preempts.
Would this be worth playing? If not, what else could an opening 2NT be used for given that all the 19+ balanced hands are covered in the Tartan and multi bids.

You have one small advantage in that you can bid 3N and occasionally
play there when you have a 4m opener (and can use 4m to show a specific
type of 4M bid) but significant disadvantages in that the oppo have
extra options on all your transfer openings.
2N = either minor
3C = both minors
3D = either major
3H = both majors
3S = gambling 3N
3N = either minor, more shaoe than 2N
4C/D = solid linked major and nothing else, or one loser major + outside
ace and nothing else.
4H/S = non solid major pre-empt.
This works well with the multi + Lucas twos (and probably tartan as well
but I have never played them) and gives you extra hands you can open (ie
weak both minors or both majors) and leaves the oppo with no cue bid
when you have a single suited pre-empt.
In response to 2N or 3D use multi responses - ie 2N - (any) - 4D is pass
or correct to 5C and the oppo are still possibly unsure which minor you
have.

I've just checked the EBU blue book, and I don't think the 2NT or 3D would be allowed at level 4, because they don't have an anchor suit, so I probably won't be allowed to play this at my local bridge club.

[ais523]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by Lorne
2N = either minor
3C = both minors
3D = either major
3H = both majors
3S = gambling 3N
3N = either minor, more shaoe than 2N
4C/D = solid linked major and nothing else, or one loser major + outside
ace and nothing else.
4H/S = non solid major pre-empt.

I've just checked the EBU blue book, and I don't think the 2NT or 3D
would be allowed at level 4, because they don't have an anchor suit,
so I probably won't be allowed to play this at my local bridge club.

Under EBU level 4 rules (as defined by the Blue Book 2017, the most
recent version), all these bids are legal:

3D is legal, it's reverse-anchored in that it shows a single-suiter
of minimum length at least 5 that isn't diamonds (the suit bid);
Blue Book 7C1b.iv. The same reasoning applies to 3S (a gambling 3NT is
also a single-suiter).

2NT is also legal for the same reason, as it shows a single-suiter of
minimum length at least 5 that isn't notrumps (note (2) of Blue Book 7C1
clarifies that this reasoning is allowed even though you can't have a
single-suiter in notrumps).

3C and 3H are legal because they show a specified two-suiter of minimum
length at least 4-4; Blue Book 7C1b.iii.

There's no way to violate the level 4 restrictions with an opening bid
of 3NT or higher (Blue Book 7D), so 3NT and the 4-level bids are legal
too.

[f***@googlemail.com]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
I've just checked the EBU blue book, and I don't think the 2NT or 3D would be allowed at level 4, because they don't have an anchor suit, so I probably won't be allowed to play this at my local bridge club.

There is no requirements for pre-empts to have an anchor suit. These are all fine at Level 4 (unless your local club has different rules, which they may do)

[ais523]

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
I've just checked the EBU blue book, and I don't think the 2NT or 3D
would be allowed at level 4, because they don't have an anchor suit,
so I probably won't be allowed to play this at my local bridge club.

There is no requirements for pre-empts to have an anchor suit. These
are all fine at Level 4 (unless your local club has different rules,
which they may do)

There are requirements, but they're more complex than just "have an
anchor suit"; sufficiently complex that attempting to quickly summarize
them in a Usenet post will likely get some of the more subtle details
wrong.

It's generally best to look up the exact rules in the Blue Book when it
becomes relevant; there are several different bases on which a pre-empt
can be legal, and most but not all bids will meet one of them, but it's
important to make sure.

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
I've just checked the EBU blue book, and I don't think the 2NT or 3D would be allowed at level 4, because they don't have an anchor suit, so I probably won't be allowed to play this at my local bridge club.

There is no requirements for pre-empts to have an anchor suit. These are all fine at Level 4 (unless your local club has different rules, which they may do)

I noticed this under 7C Notes (4)

"Opening suit bids with no ‘anchor’ suit which may or may not have length in the suit opened are particularly difficult to defend against, which is why they are not permitted.

However, players are permitted to open (say) 2 showing a weak two in either major while coincidentally also holding diamond length, as long as they have no specific understanding to do so."

This seems to state that any opening bid from 2C to 3S must show a specific suit or suits, with the exception of the multi which can show a weak two in either major. This does seem to contradict rule 7C1 b iv 1):

"Any combination of meanings that show either or both of 1) At least five cards in a suit, specified or not, which must not be the suit opened, and/or ..."

unless I have misinterpreted something here.

[ais523]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
I've just checked the EBU blue book, and I don't think the 2NT or
3D would be allowed at level 4, because they don't have an anchor
suit, so I probably won't be allowed to play this at my local bridge
club.

There is no requirements for pre-empts to have an anchor suit. These
are all fine at Level 4 (unless your local club has different rules,
which they may do)

I noticed this under 7C Notes (4)
"Opening suit bids with no ‘anchor’ suit which may or may not have
length in the suit opened are particularly difficult to defend against,
which is why they are not permitted.

What you're missing is the "may or may not have length in the suit
opened". If the bid guarantees that the hand doesn't have the suit
opened (except coincidentally), the lack of an anchor suit isn't so much
of a problem.