Nineteen points

[Dave Flower]

This bidding problem came up at Towcester last Tuesday:

IMPs, multiple teams, opponents vulnerable:

A Q 5 4
K J 4
A Q 5
Q J 3

pass pass 1S 2C
pass pass ?

Dave Flower

[Tom]

Post by Dave Flower
A Q 5 4
K J 4
A Q 5
Q J 3
pass pass 1S 2C
pass pass ?
Dave Flower

Double. Seems easy. Wonderful if pard has a trap pass. If not, pass
simple bid as game is very unlikely. Though you could go for a number is
pard is broke.

Tom Reid

[[e-mail]]

Post by Tom

Post by Dave Flower
A Q 5 4
K J 4
A Q 5
Q J 3
pass pass 1S 2C
pass pass ?
Dave Flower

Double. Seems easy. Wonderful if pard has a trap pass. If not, pass
simple bid as game is very unlikely. Though you could go for a number is
pard is broke.
Tom Reid

Trap pass?

Carl

[Tom]

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by Tom

Post by Dave Flower
A Q 5 4
K J 4
A Q 5
Q J 3
pass pass 1S 2C
pass pass ?
Dave Flower

Double. Seems easy. Wonderful if pard has a trap pass. If not,
pass simple bid as game is very unlikely. Though you could go for a
number is pard is broke.
Tom Reid

Trap pass?
Carl

Trap pass is probably the wrong words, but the right idea. I am assuming
everyone on this group plays negative doubles and a pass might be hoping
pard will reopen with a double so you can covert it to penalty.

[Co Wiersma]

Post by Tom

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by Tom

Post by Dave Flower
A Q 5 4
K J 4
A Q 5
Q J 3
pass pass 1S 2C
pass pass ?
Dave Flower

Double. Seems easy. Wonderful if pard has a trap pass. If not,
pass simple bid as game is very unlikely. Though you could go for a
number is pard is broke.
Tom Reid

Trap pass?
Carl

Trap pass is probably the wrong words, but the right idea. I am assuming
everyone on this group plays negative doubles and a pass might be hoping
pard will reopen with a double so you can covert it to penalty.

Sure
like if partner has some points and K10xxx of clubs
but the bidding says that partner cant have such clubs

My concern would be that if my partner has
Kx
xxx
Kxxxx
xxx
then I would like to be in 3NT, but how to get there in any save way?

Co Wiersma

[[e-mail]]

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by Tom

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by Tom

Post by Dave Flower
A Q 5 4
K J 4
A Q 5
Q J 3
pass pass 1S 2C
pass pass ?
Dave Flower

Double. Seems easy. Wonderful if pard has a trap pass. If not,
pass simple bid as game is very unlikely. Though you could go for a
number is pard is broke.
Tom Reid

Trap pass?
Carl

Trap pass is probably the wrong words, but the right idea. I am assuming
everyone on this group plays negative doubles and a pass might be hoping
pard will reopen with a double so you can covert it to penalty.

Sure
like if partner has some points and K10xxx of clubs
but the bidding says that partner cant have such clubs

Duh

Carl

[Will in New Haven]

Post by Tom

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by Tom

Post by Dave Flower
A Q 5 4
K J 4
A Q 5
Q J 3
pass pass 1S 2C
pass pass ?
Dave Flower

Double. Seems easy. Wonderful if pard has a trap pass. If not,
pass simple bid as game is very unlikely. Though you could go for a
number is pard is broke.
Tom Reid

Trap pass?
Carl

Trap pass is probably the wrong words, but the right idea. I am assuming
everyone on this group plays negative doubles and a pass might be hoping
pard will reopen with a double so you can covert it to penalty.

No one will respond to this but the trap pass _preceded_ Negative Doubles. Many players made penalty doubles on flexible hands with no fit for partner's suit and a holding like Kxx or xxxx in overcaller's suit. With a trump stack, you passed and hoped partner reopened. I had one partner who insisted on wallet on the table, don't you dare pull it, doubles but most people didn't play those.

[Lorne]

Post by Dave Flower
A Q 5 4
K J 4
A Q 5
Q J 3
pass pass 1S 2C
pass pass ?
Dave Flower

I will pass.

1. I think they will go 1 or 2 off most of the time but partner will not
pass if I double.

2. If I bid 2N we will make that or bid and make 3N some of the time but
not enough to risk the oppo doubling us when it is wrong.

3. Do not like double and pass partner's bid as that just swaps a
likely +100/200 for +110 or -50 most of the time.

[Tom]

Post by Lorne

Post by Dave Flower
A Q 5 4
K J 4
A Q 5
Q J 3
pass pass 1S 2C
pass pass ?
Dave Flower

I will pass.
1. I think they will go 1 or 2 off most of the time but partner will
not pass if I double.
2. If I bid 2N we will make that or bid and make 3N some of the time
but not enough to risk the oppo doubling us when it is wrong.
3. Do not like double and pass partner's bid as that just swaps a
likely +100/200 for +110 or -50 most of the time.

I still like dbl and pass if pard responds. I have had opps overcall
with lousy 5 card suits about once a month lately and actually hamered
one to wonderful grins.

[Barry Margolin]

Post by Tom

Post by Lorne

Post by Dave Flower
A Q 5 4
K J 4
A Q 5
Q J 3
pass pass 1S 2C
pass pass ?
Dave Flower

I will pass.
1. I think they will go 1 or 2 off most of the time but partner will
not pass if I double.
2. If I bid 2N we will make that or bid and make 3N some of the time
but not enough to risk the oppo doubling us when it is wrong.
3. Do not like double and pass partner's bid as that just swaps a
likely +100/200 for +110 or -50 most of the time.

I still like dbl and pass if pard responds. I have had opps overcall
with lousy 5 card suits about once a month lately and actually hamered
one to wonderful grins.

What's the chance that THIS is one of those times?

Even if it was a sub-standard overcall, like only 11 HCP, partner still
has an average of about 5 points. He almost certainly doesn't have a
hand that will pass the double.

And if LHO actuall has a decent hand for his overcall, partner will be
broke and all your side's finesses will be off.

[Player]

No one has commented on the opening. Even playing Acol, 1S is a poor choice - you see the results. Open this 1C and give partner room. I will x now though I think pass is likely correct. I cannot bring myself to pass a 19 count.

[f***@googlemail.com]

Post by Player
No one has commented on the opening. Even playing Acol, 1S is a poor choice - you see the results. Open this 1C and give partner room. I will x now though I think pass is likely correct. I cannot bring myself to pass a 19 count.

How are you better off after P P 1C 2C P P ?

[d***@yahoo.com]

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by Player
No one has commented on the opening. Even playing Acol, 1S is a poor choice - you see the results. Open this 1C and give partner room. I will x now though I think pass is likely correct. I cannot bring myself to pass a 19 count.

How are you better off after P P 1C 2C P P ?

If the opps play 2C as natural here, you are correct. However, many pair will play Michael's cuebids or something similar here.

[Co Wiersma]

Post by d***@yahoo.com

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by Player
No one has commented on the opening. Even playing Acol, 1S is a poor choice - you see the results. Open this 1C and give partner room. I will x now though I think pass is likely correct. I cannot bring myself to pass a 19 count.

How are you better off after P P 1C 2C P P ?

If the opps play 2C as natural here, you are correct. However, many pair will play Michael's cuebids or something similar here.

So I think its more correct to state that 1S opening bid on hands like
this has a slight pre-emptive value as well as a slight disadvantage for
ones own bidding.

Co Wiersma

[Player]

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by Player
No one has commented on the opening. Even playing Acol, 1S is a poor choice - you see the results. Open this 1C and give partner room. I will x now though I think pass is likely correct. I cannot bring myself to pass a 19 count.

How are you better off after P P 1C 2C P P ?

You are far less likely to get a 2C overcall over 1C, that is how you are better off.

[Player]

This really is a silly post Frances. Even if a 2c bid would be natural, opening 1c allows for a negative x or a 1h bid over a possible 1d overcall should the opp bid that instead, or even the possibility of a 1nt bid. Opening 1S is pre empting yourself with this big hand.

[KWSchneider]

Agree. Even after 1C (2C) start, you have a perfect balancing double to elicit input from partner.

[kingfish]

Post by Dave Flower
A Q 5 4
K J 4
A Q 5
Q J 3
pass pass 1S 2C
pass pass ?
Dave Flower

Pass may horrify some, but not me.

[Dave Flower]

Post by Dave Flower
A Q 5 4
K J 4
A Q 5
Q J 3
pass pass 1S 2C
pass pass ?
Dave Flower

Partner's hand was:

J x
A x x x
K x x
9 8 x x

As can be seen, despite a combined 27 count, 3NT is a difficult contract.
I elected to pass, and declarer, not the strongest player in the club, found a way to go down five, so, despite 3NT making at the other table, we still gained 3IMP.

As to the comments on the 1S bid, we were playing a version of Acol in which 1C promises four cards

Dave Flower

[Co Wiersma]

Post by Dave Flower

Post by Dave Flower
A Q 5 4
K J 4
A Q 5
Q J 3
pass pass 1S 2C
pass pass ?
Dave Flower

J x
A x x x
K x x
9 8 x x
As can be seen, despite a combined 27 count, 3NT is a difficult contract.
I elected to pass, and declarer, not the strongest player in the club, found a way to go down five, so, despite 3NT making at the other table, we still gained 3IMP.
As to the comments on the 1S bid, we were playing a version of Acol in which 1C promises four cards
Dave Flower

I do so also with my regular partner ,
but we play 15-17 nt and with 4-3-3-3 shape or 3-4-3-3 and 18-19 points
we open 1C
So effective, this shape we op only 1 in major on 12-14 points

Co Wiersma

[Player]

Why?

[Lorne]

Post by Dave Flower

Post by Dave Flower
A Q 5 4
K J 4
A Q 5
Q J 3
pass pass 1S 2C
pass pass ?
Dave Flower

J x
A x x x
K x x
9 8 x x
As can be seen, despite a combined 27 count, 3NT is a difficult contract.
I elected to pass, and declarer, not the strongest player in the club, found a way to go down five, so, despite 3NT making at the other table, we still gained 3IMP.
As to the comments on the 1S bid, we were playing a version of Acol in which 1C promises four cards
Dave Flower

I would double 2C with partner's hand - you do not mind partner bidding
2 of anything and could be making 4H if he is strong with 5431 shape.

I know some like a bit extra for a dble that forces you to the 2 level
but it does not make sense to me when playing a weak NT as partner must
have 15+ points or an unbalanced hand and either way you do not want to
pass out 2C.