How to bid this deal?

[Howard Wachtel]

Matchpoints, 2/1, E/W vul.

East holds:
A8642
A62
A5
AKJ

West holds:
[void]
KJT874
K2
Q9852

North opens 1D. East doubles, South bids 1S.
(a) What would you bid as West at this point?

(b) Suppose that West now bids 4H and North passes. What would be your call as East?

Thanks
Howard
***@juno.com

[f***@googlemail.com]

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, 2/1, E/W vul.
A8642
A62
A5
AKJ
[void]
KJT874
K2
Q9852
North opens 1D. East doubles, South bids 1S.
(a) What would you bid as West at this point?

4H

In my regular partnership I would bid 3D showing a game forcing hand with long hearts but without such agreements I would simply bid the most likely game. If it continues 4S P P am obviously bidding on. If it goes 4S double P P it's a good problem but that hasn't happened yet.

Post by Howard Wachtel
(b) Suppose that West now bids 4H and North passes. What would be your call as East?

6H

There are hands opposite when grand makes (x KQxxxx xx Qxxx for example needs spades 4-3 and hearts not 4-0) and hands opposite which grand is hopeless (xx KQxxxx x Qxxx to continue a theme), I can't see any easy way to work out which partner has. So I just bid what I think is the percentage contract.

Post by Howard Wachtel
Thanks
Howard

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, 2/1, E/W vul.
A8642
A62
A5
AKJ
[void]
KJT874
K2
Q9852
North opens 1D. East doubles, South bids 1S.
(a) What would you bid as West at this point?

4H
In my regular partnership I would bid 3D showing a game forcing hand with long hearts but without such agreements I would simply bid the most likely game. If it continues 4S P P am obviously bidding on. If it goes 4S double P P it's a good problem but that hasn't happened yet.

Post by Howard Wachtel
(b) Suppose that West now bids 4H and North passes. What would be your call as East?

6H
There are hands opposite when grand makes (x KQxxxx xx Qxxx for example needs spades 4-3 and hearts not 4-0) and hands opposite which grand is hopeless (xx KQxxxx x Qxxx to continue a theme), I can't see any easy way to work out which partner has. So I just bid what I think is the percentage contract.

FH's response seems to have nailed it.

doug

[Player]

Yes, 4H and 6H

[Charles Brenner]

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, 2/1, E/W vul.
A8642
A62
A5
AKJ
[void]
KJT874
K2
Q9852
North opens 1D. East doubles, South bids 1S.
(a) What would you bid as West at this point?
(b) Suppose that West now bids 4H and North passes. What would be your call as East?

Having seen West's actual hand it seems that North psyched. Colored by that hint it's easy for East to picture a West hand with the hK and cQ and raise to 6H, but I confess I would not see things that way as East at the table. I might instead visualize a West hand like x,Q1098xxx,xxxx,x. Probably I should bid on, but not all the way to 6H.

A 4H bid by West is certainly reasonable but it's also a concession that slam is too unlikely or too difficult to find. In other words, in bidding 4H West chooses to underbid and give up on slam. West could bid 2D initially which as it happens would put East more in the picture.

[Player]

Post by Charles Brenner

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, 2/1, E/W vul.
A8642
A62
A5
AKJ
[void]
KJT874
K2
Q9852
North opens 1D. East doubles, South bids 1S.
(a) What would you bid as West at this point?
(b) Suppose that West now bids 4H and North passes. What would be your call as East?

Having seen West's actual hand it seems that North psyched. Colored by that hint it's easy for East to picture a West hand with the hK and cQ and raise to 6H, but I confess I would not see things that way as East at the table. I might instead visualize a West hand like x,Q1098xxx,xxxx,x. Probably I should bid on, but not all the way to 6H.
A 4H bid by West is certainly reasonable but it's also a concession that slam is too unlikely or too difficult to find. In other words, in bidding 4H West chooses to underbid and give up on slam. West could bid 2D initially which as it happens would put East more in the picture.

x,Q1098xxx,xxxx,x
This is not a 4H bid for many people, but rather a semi pre emptive 3H.

[Mick Heins]

Post by Charles Brenner

Post by Charles Brenner

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, 2/1, E/W vul.
A8642
A62
A5
AKJ
[void]
KJT874
K2
Q9852
North opens 1D. East doubles, South bids 1S.
(a) What would you bid as West at this point?
(b) Suppose that West now bids 4H and North passes. What would be your call as East?

Having seen West's actual hand it seems that North psyched. Colored by that hint it's easy for East to picture a West hand with the hK and cQ and raise to 6H, but I confess I would not see things that way as East at the table. I might instead visualize a West hand like x,Q1098xxx,xxxx,x. Probably I should bid on, but not all the way to 6H.
A 4H bid by West is certainly reasonable but it's also a concession that slam is too unlikely or too difficult to find. In other words, in bidding 4H West chooses to underbid and give up on slam. West could bid 2D initially which as it happens would put East more in the picture.

x,Q1098xxx,xxxx,x
This is not a 4H bid for many people, but rather a semi pre emptive 3H.

That shows that the 6H bid is right, you even have some play for 6H
opposite that.

[t***@att.net]

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, 2/1, E/W vul.
A8642
A62
A5
AKJ
[void]
KJT874
K2
Q9852
North opens 1D. East doubles, South bids 1S.
(a) What would you bid as West at this point?
(b) Suppose that West now bids 4H and North passes. What would be your call as East?
Thanks
Howard

I'm actually 2 tricks (at least) better than my double shows so Partner's 4h shows a hand willing to play for Game opposite my 13 point hand with 44 in the Majors. Partner should be short in Spades and have pretty good Hearts to even try 4H. Thus 6H seems correct on power alone; with the 4 Aces, our side shouldn't lose the first two tricks (or even the first one.)

[smn]

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, 2/1, E/W vul.
A8642
A62
A5
AKJ
[void]
KJT874
K2
Q9852
North opens 1D. East doubles, South bids 1S.
(a) What would you bid as West at this point?
(b) Suppose that West now bids 4H and North passes. What would be your call as East?
Thanks
Howard

a) West could make a responsive double and then bid 4h but just bidding 4h is ok .
b) east could start out with 4n (1430) key card and after 5c showing the heart king bid 5d asking for the queen ;with no queen somebody would bid 6h .

[Steve Willner]

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, 2/1, E/W vul.
A8642
A62
A5
AKJ
[void]
KJT874
K2
Q9852
North opens 1D. East doubles,

I'd have bid 1S, but I realize that's a minority view.

Post by Howard Wachtel
South bids 1S.

And this time 1S wouldn't have worked nearly as well as double.

Post by Howard Wachtel
(a) What would you bid as West at this point?

While it worries me to disagree with Frances, the hand seems too strong
for 4H. Why shouldn't East hold Jxxx Axxx x AKxx or Jxxx Axxx Ax KJx or
many similar minimum hands? The key question for slam is whether East
has a lot wasted in spades or not. Also, if opponents bid 4S, I want
our passes to be forcing to help with the 4Sx/5H decision.

I'm going to cue bid and force to 4H, thereby giving at least a mild
slam invitation. I'll show the club suit if I can to help partner judge
prospects. For me the cue bid is 2S, but for some people it will be 2D.

Post by Howard Wachtel
(b) Suppose that West now bids 4H and North passes. What would be your call as East?

Again disagreeing with Frances: grand slam seems possible even with my
weaker version of what a 4H bid might look like. I'm expecting seven
hearts to the KQ and out, but unless opponents are guaranteed sound
bidders, he might have another card. Even with the minimum, grand isn't
hopeless.

I'm going to use Blackwood and then tell partner we have all the
keycards (if we do, as seems likely). Partner can take it from there.
Most days we end up in the same 6H as Frances, but we get to the grand
opposite the actual West hand. Perhaps I'm too influenced by having
seen the West hand, though.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Steve Willner

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, 2/1, E/W vul.
A8642
A62
A5
AKJ
[void]
KJT874
K2
Q9852
North opens 1D. East doubles,

I'd have bid 1S, but I realize that's a minority view.

Post by Howard Wachtel
South bids 1S.

And this time 1S wouldn't have worked nearly as well as double.

Post by Howard Wachtel
(a) What would you bid as West at this point?

While it worries me to disagree with Frances, the hand seems too strong
for 4H. Why shouldn't East hold Jxxx Axxx x AKxx or Jxxx Axxx Ax KJx or
many similar minimum hands? The key question for slam is whether East
has a lot wasted in spades or not. Also, if opponents bid 4S, I want
our passes to be forcing to help with the 4Sx/5H decision.
I'm going to cue bid and force to 4H, thereby giving at least a mild
slam invitation. I'll show the club suit if I can to help partner judge
prospects. For me the cue bid is 2S, but for some people it will be 2D.

Post by Howard Wachtel
(b) Suppose that West now bids 4H and North passes. What would be your call as East?

Again disagreeing with Frances: grand slam seems possible even with my
weaker version of what a 4H bid might look like. I'm expecting seven
hearts to the KQ and out, but unless opponents are guaranteed sound
bidders, he might have another card. Even with the minimum, grand isn't
hopeless.
I'm going to use Blackwood and then tell partner we have all the
keycards (if we do, as seems likely). Partner can take it from there.
Most days we end up in the same 6H as Frances, but we get to the grand
opposite the actual West hand. Perhaps I'm too influenced by having
seen the West hand, though.

When you say "all the keycards" don't you promise the trump Q (or 10th trump) as well?

With only 9 trumps and no Q, you're only 52% minus whatever the chance is for an opening C ruff.

Maybe worthwhile anyway in a field where EVERYONE bids slam. How would you know whether you're in such a field?

Carl

[Steve Willner]

Post by ***@verizon.net
When you say "all the keycards" don't you promise the trump Q (or 10th trump) as well?

Not unless both top trumps are in the same hand.

Post by ***@verizon.net
With only 9 trumps and no Q, you're only 52% minus whatever the
chance is for an opening C ruff.

I think my chances are a whole lot better than that if the auction
doesn't tell the opponents the Q is missing. If trumps aren't led, I
know where the Q is likely to be.

[Lorne]

Post by Steve Willner
I'm going to use Blackwood and then tell partner we have all the
keycards (if we do, as seems likely).

Is 4N is blackwood ? What do you do if your double showed a balanced
hand too strong to overcall 1N and you only have a doubleton heart?

[[e-mail]]

Post by Lorne

Post by Steve Willner
I'm going to use Blackwood and then tell partner we have all the
keycards (if we do, as seems likely).

Is 4N is blackwood ? What do you do if your double showed a balanced
hand too strong to overcall 1N and you only have a doubleton heart?

Do you believe there is a serious liklihood you can take 10 tricks at NT but not 11 in hearts?

Carl

[Lorne]

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by Lorne

Post by Steve Willner
I'm going to use Blackwood and then tell partner we have all the
keycards (if we do, as seems likely).

Is 4N is blackwood ? What do you do if your double showed a balanced
hand too strong to overcall 1N and you only have a doubleton heart?

Do you believe there is a serious liklihood you can take 10 tricks at NT but not 11 in hearts?
Carl

AQJ2
A6
AQ5
A654

I would want to bid 4N to show a balanced hand with 19+ points. I would
not want my partner to bid again if they had a weakish distributional
hand with 5 hearts. With 6 hearts I want him to bid 5H to play if weak.
I want him to bid 6N or 6H with extras.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Lorne

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by Lorne

Post by Steve Willner
I'm going to use Blackwood and then tell partner we have all the
keycards (if we do, as seems likely).

Is 4N is blackwood ? What do you do if your double showed a balanced
hand too strong to overcall 1N and you only have a doubleton heart?

Do you believe there is a serious liklihood you can take 10 tricks at NT but not 11 in hearts?
Carl

AQJ2
A6
AQ5
A654
I would want to bid 4N to show a balanced hand with 19+ points. I would
not want my partner to bid again if they had a weakish distributional
hand with 5 hearts. With 6 hearts I want him to bid 5H to play if weak.
I want him to bid 6N or 6H with extras.

Advancer does not triple jump in a 5-card suit.

And what 10 tricks do you hope for?

[Steve Willner]

Post by Lorne
AQJ2
A6
AQ5
A654
I would want to bid 4N to show a balanced hand with 19+ points.

You would?! Why?

Post by Lorne
I would not want my partner to bid again if they had a weakish
distributional hand with 5 hearts.

You seem to have a different idea of a 4H bid than I do. And as Carl
asked, if partner has that, why is 4NT a better contract than 4H?

Post by Lorne
With 6 hearts I want him to bid 5H to play if weak. I want him to bid
6N or 6H with extras.

How weak do you think a 4H bid can be? If NV, I suppose it might be
something like QJ-seventh and out, though I'd expect more, maybe KJ- or
KQ-seventh. (That's why I wouldn't bid 4H on the OP West hand, which is
far stronger.) If partner has something like that, I want to play
hearts, not NT, which is why I think 4NT ought to be Blackwood (or a
spade control bid for hearts if you play Kickback). As a practical
matter, I'd expect most players to treat 4NT as Blackwood, not natural.

[Lorne]

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, 2/1, E/W vul.
A8642
A62
A5
AKJ
[void]
KJT874
K2
Q9852
North opens 1D. East doubles, South bids 1S.
(a) What would you bid as West at this point?

4H - what I expect to make opposite a normal dble.

Post by Howard Wachtel
(b) Suppose that West now bids 4H and North passes. What would be your call as East?

6H - what I expect to make opposite a normal 4H bid. I do not see any
way to find out what I need to know in order to bid 7H or what I need to
know to stop in 5H.

Post by Howard Wachtel
Thanks
Howard

[Sandy Barnes]

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, 2/1, E/W vul.
A8642
A62
A5
AKJ
[void]
KJT874
K2
Q9852
North opens 1D. East doubles, South bids 1S.
(a) What would you bid as West at this point?
(b) Suppose that West now bids 4H and North passes. What would be your call as East?
Thanks
Howard

I do not like opening the North hand 2NT, with 5 spades and an empty suit, all aces. I would choose 1S, in spite of 20 and balanced. If 2NT is opened, 3D should get 4H from opener, thereafter finding 6H makes sense.
Opening 1S, has issues after 1NT; 3NT - ?. 6H by responder looks wild, expecting spade waste, and 4D or 5H depends on your agreements, and can be misunderstood. What you cannot bid is 4H. if 4D is understood as a heart transfer, then you have a rebid issue as well.

[Sandy Barnes]

Post by Howard Wachtel
Matchpoints, 2/1, E/W vul.
A8642
A62
A5
AKJ
[void]
KJT874
K2
Q9852
North opens 1D. East doubles, South bids 1S.
(a) What would you bid as West at this point?
(b) Suppose that West now bids 4H and North passes. What would be your call as East?
Thanks
Howard

OOPS! missed the 1D and East-West thing. Double should get 3H or 4H from partner, based on your agreements. Personally, I am afraid of 2D by responder, since there is potential of losing control of the auction, and I would favor 4H, simplicity. Hard to miss slam after 4H.