Hand 3, dealing with high pre-empt

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

9
AQ643
762
K963

No-one vuln. LHO opens 4S, partner doubles, RHO passes. What do you do?

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
9
AQ643
762
K963
No-one vuln. LHO opens 4S, partner doubles, RHO passes. What do you do?

What is the partnership agreement about the meaning of partner's double? Penalty or takeout or cooperative?

If not strictly penalty, 5H looks right. Not sure that we will set 4SX enough three tricks. If penalty, holding potentially three defensive tricks (true, a very rosy view) seems right.

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
9
AQ643
762
K963
No-one vuln. LHO opens 4S, partner doubles, RHO passes. What do you do?

What is the partnership agreement about the meaning of partner's double? Penalty or takeout or cooperative?
If not strictly penalty, 5H looks right. Not sure that we will set 4SX enough three tricks. If penalty, holding potentially three defensive tricks (true, a very rosy view) seems right.

At the time I wasn't sure (it has never come up before, and is undiscussed). I took it as primarily takeout but not necessarily classic takeout double shape, so could be strong balanced or semi-balanced, either way, it must be a decent hand.

[ais523]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
9
AQ643
762
K963
No-one vuln. LHO opens 4S, partner doubles, RHO passes. What do you do?

It depends on what the double means. However, most people, regardless of
whether their agreements describe the double as penalty, takeout, or
cooperative, tend to actually play it as "stronger than an opening bid,
takeout shape, but tolerant of a penalty pass if partner has the bid
suit".

Opposite a double like that, there's far too high a chance that 4S is
making. (It's quite possible that RHO has a decent number of points, for
example; they might not but they wouldn't bid either way.) On the other
hand, 5H seems plausible; it's far from certain that it'll make but
combining the odds that it makes with the odds that it's a good
sacrifice probably means it's worth bidding. (It seems pretty likely
that 4H makes on this hand, so 5H is unlikely to go more than one down.)

I'd be a bit concerned about the situation in diamonds, with a weak
suit opposite a suit that isn't short, but hopefully partner has an
honour or two there (they're more likely to have the honours than RHO
is, and much more likely than LHO is).

[ais523]

Post by ais523

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
9
AQ643
762
K963
No-one vuln. LHO opens 4S, partner doubles, RHO passes. What do you do?

It depends on what the double means. However, most people, regardless of
whether their agreements describe the double as penalty, takeout, or
cooperative, tend to actually play it as "stronger than an opening bid,
takeout shape, but tolerant of a penalty pass if partner has the bid
suit".

Oh, and another thought: it depends not only on what the double means,
but also on what 4S means.

If the opponents are playing a convention to distinguish between very
weak and "plausible that we make it" 4-level pre-empts (e.g. Namyats),
then at matchpoints, passing is more plausible if 4S is very weak. (In
that situation, it's probably going down – partner is unlimited, so
the odds are that we have both a heart fit and a lot of points – so the
main risk of passing is potentially missing a slam. It's far from
obvious whether 450 for a making game is better or worse than the
likely 300/500 point penalty, and if the penalty is only 100 points the
game probably doesn't make. This hand isn't good enough for a slam
/try/, especially as there's no bidding space left; bid 5H and see if
partner raises.)

If their only major-suit pre-empts are 3S and 4S, though, I'd expect 4S
to be fairly sound, and thus plausible that it makes given that
neither us nor are partner have length there; either RHO has a big fit
for spades, or (more likely) LHO has a really really long spade suit
(8 or even 9 of them) + a few relevant entries. That's what I was
assuming in my previous reply. So the "sacrifice or to make" 5H makes
more sense there.

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by ais523

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
9
AQ643
762
K963
No-one vuln. LHO opens 4S, partner doubles, RHO passes. What do you do?

It depends on what the double means. However, most people, regardless of
whether their agreements describe the double as penalty, takeout, or
cooperative, tend to actually play it as "stronger than an opening bid,
takeout shape, but tolerant of a penalty pass if partner has the bid
suit".
Opposite a double like that, there's far too high a chance that 4S is
making.

This seems like a total non sequitur.
Surely the conclusion is that 4S is not making and fairly clearly so.
It looks like 2 off at least.
Once in a while East turn up with a miracle hand but we don't bid on
that basis.

(It's quite possible that RHO has a decent number of points, for

Post by ais523
example; they might not but they wouldn't bid either way.) On the other
hand, 5H seems plausible; it's far from certain that it'll make but
combining the odds that it makes with the odds that it's a good
sacrifice probably means it's worth bidding. (It seems pretty likely
that 4H makes on this hand, so 5H is unlikely to go more than one down.)

Remember that the 4S preempt is going to make the other three suits
split badly which will affect the chances of 5H making.

Unfortunately, we are not told whether it is pairs or teams.
At teams, you take the first reasonable sized plus score you are
offered. That seems to be 4Sx-2 for +300 and the difference between
that and an 75% chance of 5H= is very little.
At pairs, it's slightly more open but again passing gets a plus score
on your side of the score sheet which is your first duty.

Post by ais523
I'd be a bit concerned about the situation in diamonds, with a weak
suit opposite a suit that isn't short, but hopefully partner has an
honour or two there (they're more likely to have the honours than RHO
is, and much more likely than LHO is).

In a dubious situation like this, it is nice if you can stay with the
field but the field probably doesn't bid 4S, some wont double for
whatever reason.
I guess if the field was reaching this position, it would bid 5H and
bidding 5H thus keeps you with a middling score (or at least avoids a
bottom).

[ais523]

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by ais523

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
9
AQ643
762
K963
No-one vuln. LHO opens 4S, partner doubles, RHO passes. What do you do?

It depends on what the double means. However, most people, regardless of
whether their agreements describe the double as penalty, takeout, or
cooperative, tend to actually play it as "stronger than an opening bid,
takeout shape, but tolerant of a penalty pass if partner has the bid
suit".
Opposite a double like that, there's far too high a chance that 4S is
making.

This seems like a total non sequitur.
Surely the conclusion is that 4S is not making and fairly clearly so.
It looks like 2 off at least.
Once in a while East turn up with a miracle hand but we don't bid on
that basis.

I'm used to playing against opponents who won't bid 4S unless they
actually have the miracle hand, or something close to it. I'd be
expecting at least 9 spades+Aces from LHO, so they're pretty close to
being able to make. (This is assuming that 4S is sound, rather than
weak.)

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by ais523

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by ais523

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
9
AQ643
762
K963
No-one vuln. LHO opens 4S, partner doubles, RHO passes. What do you do?

It depends on what the double means. However, most people, regardless of
whether their agreements describe the double as penalty, takeout, or
cooperative, tend to actually play it as "stronger than an opening bid,
takeout shape, but tolerant of a penalty pass if partner has the bid
suit".
Opposite a double like that, there's far too high a chance that 4S is
making.

This seems like a total non sequitur.
Surely the conclusion is that 4S is not making and fairly clearly so.
It looks like 2 off at least.
Once in a while East turn up with a miracle hand but we don't bid on
that basis.

I'm used to playing against opponents who won't bid 4S unless they
actually have the miracle hand, or something close to it. I'd be
expecting at least 9 spades+Aces from LHO, so they're pretty close to
being able to make. (This is assuming that 4S is sound, rather than
weak.)

Most of us expect opponents to have 7 playing tricks (through the long
suit and maybe a side high card [not an ace in 1st and 2nd]) and little
defence.
Playing against juniors, they might have only 6 tricks esp in 3rd seat.
Your assertion about what happens where you play seems to have little
in common with where the rest of us play.

[Kenny McCormack]

In article <p99g95$3e8$***@douglasnewlands.eternal-september.org>,
Douglas Newlands <***@gmail.com> wrote:
...

Post by Douglas Newlands
Playing against juniors, they might have only 6 tricks esp in 3rd seat.
Your assertion about what happens where you play seems to have little
in common with where the rest of us play.

I'd tune down the "smug" a notch or two, there, big fella.

I get where the previous poster is coming from. It's not at all that
uncommn. At the levels that most people play at (this may or may not
include you, but that's irrelevant), people will bid 3S on most pre-empty
type hands. They will only bid 4S when they've got the goods.

[Kenny McCormack]

In article <p99bc1$8lj$***@dont-email.me>, ais523 <***@nethack4.org> wrote:
...

Post by ais523
I'm used to playing against opponents who won't bid 4S unless they
actually have the miracle hand, or something close to it. I'd be
expecting at least 9 spades+Aces from LHO, so they're pretty close to
being able to make. (This is assuming that 4S is sound, rather than
weak.)

Sounds like you're talking about BBO. That's the norm on BBO (at least
it was back when I played on BBO, before the system broke down).

Incidentally, this hand underscores why I think pre-empts are inherenty
unethical - and should be banned.

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by ais523

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
9
AQ643
762
K963
No-one vuln. LHO opens 4S, partner doubles, RHO passes. What do you do?

It depends on what the double means. However, most people, regardless of
whether their agreements describe the double as penalty, takeout, or
cooperative, tend to actually play it as "stronger than an opening bid,
takeout shape, but tolerant of a penalty pass if partner has the bid
suit".
Opposite a double like that, there's far too high a chance that 4S is
making.

This seems like a total non sequitur.
Surely the conclusion is that 4S is not making and fairly clearly so.
It looks like 2 off at least.
Once in a while East turn up with a miracle hand but we don't bid on
that basis.
(It's quite possible that RHO has a decent number of points, for

Post by ais523
example; they might not but they wouldn't bid either way.) On the other
hand, 5H seems plausible; it's far from certain that it'll make but
combining the odds that it makes with the odds that it's a good
sacrifice probably means it's worth bidding. (It seems pretty likely
that 4H makes on this hand, so 5H is unlikely to go more than one down.)

Remember that the 4S preempt is going to make the other three suits
split badly which will affect the chances of 5H making.
Unfortunately, we are not told whether it is pairs or teams.
At teams, you take the first reasonable sized plus score you are
offered. That seems to be 4Sx-2 for +300 and the difference between
that and an 75% chance of 5H= is very little.
At pairs, it's slightly more open but again passing gets a plus score
on your side of the score sheet which is your first duty.

Post by ais523
I'd be a bit concerned about the situation in diamonds, with a weak
suit opposite a suit that isn't short, but hopefully partner has an
honour or two there (they're more likely to have the honours than RHO
is, and much more likely than LHO is).

In a dubious situation like this, it is nice if you can stay with the
field but the field probably doesn't bid 4S, some wont double for
whatever reason.
I guess if the field was reaching this position, it would bid 5H and
bidding 5H thus keeps you with a middling score (or at least avoids a
bottom).

It is pairs, and opps are not playing Namyats, so 4S is a standard pre-empt with about 7 or 8 tricks in the hand.

[Co Wiersma]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
9
AQ643
762
K963
No-one vuln. LHO opens 4S, partner doubles, RHO passes. What do you do?

I bid 5H
What else can I do?

Co Wiersma

[Player]

Post by Co Wiersma

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
9
AQ643
762
K963
No-one vuln. LHO opens 4S, partner doubles, RHO passes. What do you do?

I bid 5H
What else can I do?
Co Wiersma

Well you could pass Co, which is what I do at these colours. Make me vul and give me a problem. Now I bid 5H.

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
9
AQ643
762
K963
No-one vuln. LHO opens 4S, partner doubles, RHO passes. What do you do?

At the table I had a think, and reasoned that partner must have a decent hand to double 4S, and holding a 9 count and a reasonable 5 card heart suit there is a risk we have been knocked out of a making heart game. I decided that a significant portion of the room will be allowed to bid and make 4H, and that it was unclear that 4SX would go three off in compensation. I therefore decided to bid 5H.

Partner came down with:

Q87
K2
AK9
A8752

Oh dear, this looks like one of those hands where both 4S and 5H go off, so maybe I should have passed and taken the plus score. As it happened I had a fortunate layout. The hearts broke 3-3 (unexpected given the pre-empt), and the clubs were 3-1, so after the defence cashed a spade and put me in with a club, I drew trumps, played three rounds of clubs, and the diamond loser went away on the fifth club. 5H made for a top. It turns out I couldn't get this wrong, as on best defence 4SX is four off for +800 (although whether we find the best defence is questionable). South had made an aggressive pre-empt on AKJ6532 T97 J8 4.

Interesting that EW can make more tricks in spades with a 3-1 "fit", than NS can make with a 7-2 fit and four out of five honors.

[Player]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
9
AQ643
762
K963
No-one vuln. LHO opens 4S, partner doubles, RHO passes. What do you do?

At the table I had a think, and reasoned that partner must have a decent hand to double 4S, and holding a 9 count and a reasonable 5 card heart suit there is a risk we have been knocked out of a making heart game. I decided that a significant portion of the room will be allowed to bid and make 4H, and that it was unclear that 4SX would go three off in compensation. I therefore decided to bid 5H.
Q87
K2
AK9
A8752
Oh dear, this looks like one of those hands where both 4S and 5H go off, so maybe I should have passed and taken the plus score. As it happened I had a fortunate layout. The hearts broke 3-3 (unexpected given the pre-empt), and the clubs were 3-1, so after the defence cashed a spade and put me in with a club, I drew trumps, played three rounds of clubs, and the diamond loser went away on the fifth club. 5H made for a top. It turns out I couldn't get this wrong, as on best defence 4SX is four off for +800 (although whether we find the best defence is questionable). South had made an aggressive pre-empt on AKJ6532 T97 J8 4.
Interesting that EW can make more tricks in spades with a 3-1 "fit", than NS can make with a 7-2 fit and four out of five honors.

In my view your partner did not have a double of 4S.

[Steve Willner]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
9
AQ643
762
K963
No-one vuln. LHO opens 4S, partner doubles, RHO passes. What do you do?

In practice, partner's double shows any hand too strong to pass but no
suit worth showing (and not two-suited for 4NT). The hand above is far
stronger with more offensive values than partner expects, so it warrants
an effort to get to slam. I'd bid 4NT and raise 5C to 6C. Over 5D,
I'll be stuck with 5H, but it will be an underbid.

Partner's actual hand (Q87 K2 AK9 A8752) is nothing close to a double.
Even putting the S-Q into clubs wouldn't make it one, though it would be
close. If you think your partner might have that, you have a difficult
choice between pass and 5H.

I don't think form of scoring matters for this specific problem, but it
often will.