Discussion:
Do you fancy the 5 level?
(too old to reply)
Lorne Anderson
2016-09-04 17:12:23 UTC
Permalink
IMP pairs, both vul, the bidding starts:

(3S) P (4S) ?

Do you do anything with:

-
109754
AQ10642
A10

Your agreements are that dble is T/O and 4N is any 2 suits.
Dave Flower
2016-09-04 17:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
(3S) P (4S) ?
-
109754
AQ10642
A10
Your agreements are that dble is T/O and 4N is any 2 suits.
I vote for an in tempo pass. I expect my two aces to score, and partner should have something useful (If not, a sacrifice is likely to be expensive. May be partner has SQxx, and declarer misguesses.
Dave Flower
t***@att.net
2016-09-04 18:48:41 UTC
Permalink
Pass. Maybe Spades split 2-0 and Partner scores an Honor while you pick up a couple of Aces.
jogs
2016-09-04 20:41:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
(3S) P (4S) ?
-
109754
AQ10642
A10
Your agreements are that dble is T/O and 4N is any 2 suits.
Pass. Not my style. Don't try to win boards. Just try to not do anything stupid.
Player
2016-09-05 00:59:03 UTC
Permalink
I reluctantly pass.
Douglas Newlands
2016-09-05 01:39:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
(3S) P (4S) ?
-
109754
AQ10642
A10
Your agreements are that dble is T/O and 4N is any 2 suits.
Some responses seem to have missed "IMP pairs".
I'll assume I have nothing from knowledge of the players or any BITs.
It's easy to construct a hand where partner has
no bid over 3S and we are close to cold for 7H.
Assuming partner has 3 spades, he has 10 other cards and we
definitely have an eight card fit and probably a nine card
fit tho the club one may get us to an uncomfortable level.
The problem is the distribution of high cards is not clear

It's only a minor irritant to go for 800 against their 620 or 650.
This looks like 800 at worst but they've forced me into a gamble
since I am the one short in their suit.
I'll bid 4NT and quote an old Bols bridge tip which says
"6-5 come alive" if disaster ensues.

doug
Dave Flower
2016-09-05 08:20:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by Lorne Anderson
(3S) P (4S) ?
-
109754
AQ10642
A10
Your agreements are that dble is T/O and 4N is any 2 suits.
Some responses seem to have missed "IMP pairs".
I'll assume I have nothing from knowledge of the players or any BITs.
It's easy to construct a hand where partner has
no bid over 3S and we are close to cold for 7H.
Assuming partner has 3 spades, he has 10 other cards and we
definitely have an eight card fit and probably a nine card
fit tho the club one may get us to an uncomfortable level.
The problem is the distribution of high cards is not clear
It's only a minor irritant to go for 800 against their 620 or 650.
This looks like 800 at worst but they've forced me into a gamble
since I am the one short in their suit.
I'll bid 4NT and quote an old Bols bridge tip which says
"6-5 come alive" if disaster ensues.
doug
Surely -5 IMP is a medium sized irritant?

And if 4S doesn't make, it becomes -14 IMP

David Flower
Berti Rupsli
2016-09-05 11:46:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by Lorne Anderson
(3S) P (4S) ?
-
109754
AQ10642
A10
Your agreements are that dble is T/O and 4N is any 2 suits.
Some responses seem to have missed "IMP pairs".
I'll assume I have nothing from knowledge of the players or any BITs.
It's easy to construct a hand where partner has
no bid over 3S and we are close to cold for 7H.
Assuming partner has 3 spades, he has 10 other cards and we
definitely have an eight card fit and probably a nine card
fit tho the club one may get us to an uncomfortable level.
The problem is the distribution of high cards is not clear
It's only a minor irritant to go for 800 against their 620 or 650.
This looks like 800 at worst but they've forced me into a gamble
since I am the one short in their suit.
I'll bid 4NT and quote an old Bols bridge tip which says
"6-5 come alive" if disaster ensues.
doug
Surely -5 IMP is a medium sized irritant?
And if 4S doesn't make, it becomes -14 IMP
David Flower
If this 4NT understanding is available, I'd go for it here - risky, but if not now, when...? And I'll raise pd's (expected) 5C to 5D... everything should then be clear for pd...

David: not quite - if pd holds "nothing", resulting in -800, then their 4S (+1) should realistically not be in danger, so it's -5 (or -4). And if pd holds "something" then even with their DBL our chances rise to end up with -200 (which would be a huge +9), and even considering the worst case of their possible 1down will thus result in -7 only.

Berti
Robert Chance
2016-09-05 14:03:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
(3S) P (4S) ?
-
109754
AQ10642
A10
Your agreements are that dble is T/O and 4N is any 2 suits.
I'm bidding 4NT, and if they go on to 5S I shall double.

It may not be obvious for oppo to double us. RHO also has to decide whether to bid 5S before we have revealed which suits we hold.
jogs
2016-09-05 14:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Chance
Post by Lorne Anderson
(3S) P (4S) ?
-
109754
AQ10642
A10
Your agreements are that dble is T/O and 4N is any 2 suits.
I'm bidding 4NT, and if they go on to 5S I shall double.
It may not be obvious for oppo to double us. RHO also has to decide whether to bid 5S before we have revealed which suits we hold.
If I knew they would bid 5S, for sure I would bid. This only happens in club games, where I know my opponents' tendencies.
p***@infi.net
2016-09-05 20:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
(3S) P (4S) ?
-
109754
AQ10642
A10
Your agreements are that dble is T/O and 4N is any 2 suits.
Gee, a double game swing vs. -1100. Well, that's why we play the game. How are the IMPs computed? Our score vs. an average of scores the other way? I'm tempted to bid on the basis I have only one partner and no teammates to apologize to, but I've not thought a lot about this form of scoring and suspect pass is the better part of valor.
jogs
2016-09-05 23:11:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@infi.net
Post by Lorne Anderson
(3S) P (4S) ?
-
109754
AQ10642
A10
Your agreements are that dble is T/O and 4N is any 2 suits.
Gee, a double game swing vs. -1100. Well, that's why we play the game. How are the IMPs computed? Our score vs. an average of scores the other way? I'm tempted to bid on the basis I have only one partner and no teammates to apologize to, but I've not thought a lot about this form of scoring and suspect pass is the better part of valor.
Your score is imped against every other pair sitting your direction. Sum the imps and divide by number comparisons. Could be wrong. That's the way I would do it.
p***@infi.net
2016-09-06 00:47:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by jogs
Post by p***@infi.net
Post by Lorne Anderson
(3S) P (4S) ?
-
109754
AQ10642
A10
Your agreements are that dble is T/O and 4N is any 2 suits.
Gee, a double game swing vs. -1100. Well, that's why we play the game. How are the IMPs computed? Our score vs. an average of scores the other way? I'm tempted to bid on the basis I have only one partner and no teammates to apologize to, but I've not thought a lot about this form of scoring and suspect pass is the better part of valor.
Your score is imped against every other pair sitting your direction. Sum the imps and divide by number comparisons. Could be wrong. That's the way I would do it.
RIght, I was thinking there was an alternative to comparing vs. the average, I think what you describe is how BBO does it. It's been a while since we had an IMP pairs game at our club.
Douglas Newlands
2016-09-06 01:16:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@infi.net
Post by jogs
Post by p***@infi.net
Post by Lorne Anderson
(3S) P (4S) ?
-
109754
AQ10642
A10
Your agreements are that dble is T/O and 4N is any 2 suits.
Gee, a double game swing vs. -1100. Well, that's why we play the game. How are the IMPs computed? Our score vs. an average of scores the other way? I'm tempted to bid on the basis I have only one partner and no teammates to apologize to, but I've not thought a lot about this form of scoring and suspect pass is the better part of valor.
Your score is imped against every other pair sitting your direction. Sum the imps and divide by number comparisons. Could be wrong. That's the way I would do it.
RIght, I was thinking there was an alternative to comparing vs. the average, I think what you describe is how BBO does it. It's been a while since we had an IMP pairs game at our club.
There are two ways (I think):
cross-imp which seems to be what you are describing (with or without
the final division)
and
Butler imps (?) where the top and bottom few scores are deleted and you
imp against the average. The number of deletions is dependent on the
field size.
The latter method is probably should be more historical now since
computers can cross imp quickly and accurately but you still see it
from time to time.

doug
Lorne Anderson
2016-09-06 11:16:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by jogs
Your score is imped against every other pair sitting your direction.
Sum the imps and divide by number comparisons. Could be wrong.
That's the way I would do it.
That is how it is now done here. Used to be Butler IMPS (ie IMP against
the oppo average removing the top and bottom scores) but that went out
of favour 10/15 yrs ago as computer scoring became the norm.
p***@infi.net
2016-09-06 02:51:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
(3S) P (4S) ?
-
109754
AQ10642
A10
Your agreements are that dble is T/O and 4N is any 2 suits.
Does anyone have any insight on the differences, if any, in strategy for IMP pairs versus IMP teams? I've never read anything specific to IMP pairs. The emphasis on bidding vulnerable games and playing safe to make your bid is obvious, but is there a difference regarding "insurance" and double-swings?
Bruce Evans
2016-09-06 08:54:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@infi.net
Post by Lorne Anderson
(3S) P (4S) ?
-
109754
AQ10642
A10
Your agreements are that dble is T/O and 4N is any 2 suits.
Does anyone have any insight on the differences, if any, in strategy for
IMP pairs versus IMP teams? I've never read anything specific to IMP
pairs. The emphasis on bidding vulnerable games and playing safe to make
your bid is obvious, but is there a difference regarding "insurance" and
double-swings?
Imp pairs in a weak field is like matchpoints in a bad field. All minus
scores are bad, even if they beat par by a lot. So never take insurance.
It does little good to insure with 5DX down only 1 against 4S making
exactly, since this is only par and it is a minus score.

If the field is not weak, then the scoring is more like normal imps with
not weak teams. So take insurance. Now you can hope for average when
par is a minus score.

I think bidding with this hand is only insurance. It is not strong enough
to make 5 level contracts or slams very often. But it is good for insurance,
since you expect 4S to make very often (perhaps 40%) and your contract to
not be down 3 or more very often.

When you can actually make something, par is likely to be 5SX down 1 or 2
with down 3 not too bad if it is unlikely, and bidding transfers the
insurance problem to the opponents...

Bruce
p***@infi.net
2016-09-06 09:44:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Evans
Post by p***@infi.net
Post by Lorne Anderson
(3S) P (4S) ?
-
109754
AQ10642
A10
Your agreements are that dble is T/O and 4N is any 2 suits.
Does anyone have any insight on the differences, if any, in strategy for
IMP pairs versus IMP teams? I've never read anything specific to IMP
pairs. The emphasis on bidding vulnerable games and playing safe to make
your bid is obvious, but is there a difference regarding "insurance" and
double-swings?
Imp pairs in a weak field is like matchpoints in a bad field. All minus
scores are bad, even if they beat par by a lot. So never take insurance.
It does little good to insure with 5DX down only 1 against 4S making
exactly, since this is only par and it is a minus score.
If the field is not weak, then the scoring is more like normal imps with
not weak teams. So take insurance. Now you can hope for average when
par is a minus score.
I think bidding with this hand is only insurance. It is not strong enough
to make 5 level contracts or slams very often. But it is good for insurance,
since you expect 4S to make very often (perhaps 40%) and your contract to
not be down 3 or more very often.
When you can actually make something, par is likely to be 5SX down 1 or 2
with down 3 not too bad if it is unlikely, and bidding transfers the
insurance problem to the opponents...
Bruce
Well, picturing partner with xxx AKxx Kxx xxx and each opp with a red singleton, we aren't beating 4S but 5D or 5H makes. This seems like the proper time for insurance, unless we think a good part of the field won't bid 4S or won't bid with our hand. Odds favor one of the red suits breaking 2-2, in which case we beat 4S but make 11 or 12 tricks our way. We can picture preemptor with
KQJxxxx x xx xxx and responder with Axx xxx xx AKxxx.

A double-dummy sim might be of use here: while there might be an occasional stiff King or such, I think play and defense is apt to be close to optimum.
Lorne Anderson
2016-09-06 11:26:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@infi.net
A double-dummy sim might be of use here: while there might be an
occasional stiff King or such, I think play and defense is apt to be
close to optimum.
A simulation here is tough. I can bias the dealer to have a 3S opening
and 2nd hand to have a pass and 4th hand fixed but the 3rd hand is a
problem. Sometimes it will have raised with spade support and sometimes
with a good hand and maybe 1 spade but the program I have only has
bidding code for opening bids and overcalls, not responses.

The issue here is I think it is nearly always right to bid when the
raise is based on support and nearly always wrong when the raise is a
good hand with short spades. I wanted to get a feel for which way
people would jump given that either decision could be very expensive.
When the raise is based on spade support game will often make both ways,
but when based on a good hand with short spades contracts both ways are
usually off, sometimes by 2 or 3 tricks.
Bruce Evans
2016-09-06 13:56:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
Post by p***@infi.net
A double-dummy sim might be of use here: while there might be an
occasional stiff King or such, I think play and defense is apt to be
close to optimum.
A simulation here is tough. I can bias the dealer to have a 3S opening
and 2nd hand to have a pass and 4th hand fixed but the 3rd hand is a
problem. Sometimes it will have raised with spade support and sometimes
with a good hand and maybe 1 spade but the program I have only has
bidding code for opening bids and overcalls, not responses.
The issue here is I think it is nearly always right to bid when the
raise is based on support and nearly always wrong when the raise is a
good hand with short spades.
Indeed. Third hand should know this too and bid 4S on a wide range of
hands, and also not bid 4S when the fit is so good that you are not likely
to pass it.
Post by Lorne Anderson
I wanted to get a feel for which way
people would jump given that either decision could be very expensive.
When the raise is based on spade support game will often make both ways,
but when based on a good hand with short spades contracts both ways are
usually off, sometimes by 2 or 3 tricks.
Try starting with simulating that third hand has 13 cards. Since the other
hands are limited, third hand is not very weak. It probably has about
8-12 HCP and that is weak enough that it doesn't have much defense to 3NT
or 4H so it should raise to 4S unless short in spades. This depends on
how disciplined 3S is. If 3S is often on 6 cards then raising on xx is
too much. You wouldn't be able to simulate undisciplined 3S bids anyway.

Bidding is wronger when the raise is a not so good hand with short spades.
Short is xx or perhaps x. If the hand is strong then it at least makes
4S unless partner's spades are something like KJ975 over AQT86xx so
bidding is right if it is down 2 doubled and only costs a few imps if it
is down 3 doubled or down 8 singled.

Bruce
Robert Chance
2016-09-06 20:23:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
The issue here is I think it is nearly always right to bid when the
raise is based on support and nearly always wrong when the raise is a
good hand with short spades.
As a matter of interest, how would partner read it if we double here and then pull 5C to 5D? If partner takes this as showing diamonds and hearts, then it might well be the best option here, as partner leaves the double in when this is the right thing to do (holding something in spades). If, on the other hand, doubling and removing partner's bid has additional inferences, then it may not be a viable option.

If double-then-pull-5C does show diamonds and hearts, what is the difference between this and bidding 4NT?
jogs
2016-09-06 21:21:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
Post by p***@infi.net
A double-dummy sim might be of use here: while there might be an
occasional stiff King or such, I think play and defense is apt to be
close to optimum.
A simulation here is tough. I can bias the dealer to have a 3S opening
and 2nd hand to have a pass and 4th hand fixed but the 3rd hand is a
problem. Sometimes it will have raised with spade support and sometimes
with a good hand and maybe 1 spade but the program I have only has
bidding code for opening bids and overcalls, not responses.
The issue here is I think it is nearly always right to bid when the
raise is based on support and nearly always wrong when the raise is a
good hand with short spades. I wanted to get a feel for which way
people would jump given that either decision could be very expensive.
When the raise is based on spade support game will often make both ways,
but when based on a good hand with short spades contracts both ways are
usually off, sometimes by 2 or 3 tricks.
Extremely tough. There's no universal agreement on what constitutes a 3S vulnerable opening. The 4S bid may or maybe be based on a fit. We don't know if 4S makes or will even be bid by the field. With no field protection every sacrifice is a losing proposition.
Bruce Evans
2016-09-06 13:30:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@infi.net
Post by Bruce Evans
Post by p***@infi.net
Post by Lorne Anderson
(3S) P (4S) ?
-
109754
AQ10642
A10
Your agreements are that dble is T/O and 4N is any 2 suits.
Does anyone have any insight on the differences, if any, in strategy for
IMP pairs versus IMP teams? I've never read anything specific to IMP
pairs. The emphasis on bidding vulnerable games and playing safe to make
your bid is obvious, but is there a difference regarding "insurance" and
double-swings?
Imp pairs in a weak field is like matchpoints in a bad field. All minus
scores are bad, even if they beat par by a lot. So never take insurance.
It does little good to insure with 5DX down only 1 against 4S making
exactly, since this is only par and it is a minus score.
If the field is not weak, then the scoring is more like normal imps with
not weak teams. So take insurance. Now you can hope for average when
par is a minus score.
I think bidding with this hand is only insurance. It is not strong enough
to make 5 level contracts or slams very often. But it is good for insurance,
since you expect 4S to make very often (perhaps 40%) and your contract to
not be down 3 or more very often.
When you can actually make something, par is likely to be 5SX down 1 or 2
with down 3 not too bad if it is unlikely, and bidding transfers the
insurance problem to the opponents...
Well, picturing partner with xxx AKxx Kxx xxx and each opp with a red
singleton, we aren't beating 4S but 5D or 5H makes. This seems like the
You are an optimist. I picture partner with KJxx Qxx xxx Qxx, or on a
bad day, KJxxx xx xxx xxx. But the main losing case is when he has
just enough defense to beat 4S but not enough to make 5H/D or push them
to 5S. Say Kxx Axx Kxx xxxx.
Post by p***@infi.net
proper time for insurance, unless we think a good part of the field
won't bid 4S or won't bid with our hand. Odds favor one of the red suits
breaking 2-2, in which case we beat 4S but make 11 or 12 tricks our way.
Er, odds favour nothing breaking. They might have a void too, and then
partner's xxx AKxx Kxx xxx is needed to beat 5S if the void is in diamonds.

It does depend on what the field would do. If your opponents are any
good then they bid 4S knowing this. They only have an obvious 4S bid
if they have not very long spade support but good defense.
Post by p***@infi.net
We can picture preemptor with
KQJxxxx x xx xxx and responder with Axx xxx xx AKxxx.
Only solid citizens have a classic 3S preempt. Responder doesn't have
that since you have the CA. When partner has the above control-rich
hand, responder has Axx QJx Jxx KQJx. You make 6H except on the
non-obvious club lead. This shows how non-routine the opponent's
4S bid was
Post by p***@infi.net
A double-dummy sim might be of use here: while there might be an
occasional stiff King or such, I think play and defense is apt to be
close to optimum.
It doesn't need double dummy, but just a dealing out a few thousand
hands instead of the 2 or 3 that we considered here, to determine if
the average total tricks matches our guesses. I guess closer to 18
than 20. Could be on either side of 19. This depends on the opponents.
They should have only a 9 card spade fit often (and sometimes 8), since
4S is insurance with only a 9 card fit and if it guarantees a 10 card
for then this helps us too much.

Bruce
Will in New Haven
2016-09-09 14:45:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
(3S) P (4S) ?
-
109754
AQ10642
A10
Your agreements are that dble is T/O and 4N is any 2 suits.
Tough one. Double may catch partner with enough Spade tricks to make defending right and I can pull 5C to 5D. So 4NT is out. Pass may work out.

I Double.
--
Will now in Pompano Beach
f***@googlemail.com
2016-09-20 15:14:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne Anderson
(3S) P (4S) ?
-
109754
AQ10642
A10
Your agreements are that dble is T/O and 4N is any 2 suits.
4NT
Second choice 5D

I wouldn't pass.

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